Not By Works

TruthTalk · Oct 1, 2017

A Prayer That a Synergist Won't Pray

(An Open Challenge to All Synergists by: John Hendryx)

Repost:

Here is a prayer that would be consistent with the synergist's theology if he really believed that faith is a product of our unregenerated human nature and not the result of grace alone:

"God, I give you glory for everything else, but not my faith ... This is the one thing that is my very own that I produced of my fallen natural capacities. For this little bit the glory is mine. So I thank you Lord that I am not like other men who do not have faith. When you extended your grace to all men some did not make use of it, BUT I DID. While You deserve glory for all I have Lord, my faith was the one part that I contributed to the price of my redemption, apart from and independent of the effectual work of Your Holy Spirit."

VCO · Oct 1, 2017

PHart said:

YOU ARE TOTALLY UNBELIEVABLE. YOU DESPERATELY TRY TO TWIST EVERY THING TO TRY TO JUSTIFY YOUR FALSE BELIEF IN WORKS COUNTING TOWARD SALVATON.

NO THAT IS NOT WHAT IT MEAN, Read it again it is in PLAIN ENGLISH.

5I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." (1 Corinthians 5:5 NASB)

INTERPRET SCRIPTURE WITH SCRIPTURE:

1 John 5:16-17 (ASV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] If any man see his brother sinning a sin not unto death, he shall ask, and God will give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: not concerning this do I say that he should make request.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

Romans 1:26-27 (CSBBible)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] For this reason God delivered them over to disgraceful passions. Their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones.
[SUP]27 [/SUP] The men in the same way also left natural relations with women and were inflamed in their lust for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the appropriate penalty of their error. {AIDS}

1 Corinthians 3:15 (CSBBible)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] If anyone's work is burned up, he will experienceloss, but he himself will be saved — but only as through fire.

dcontroversal · Oct 2, 2017

VCO said:

YOU ARE TOTALLY UNBELIEVABLE. YOU DESPERATELY TRY TO TWIST EVERY THING TO TRY TO JUSTIFY YOUR FALSE BELIEF IN WORKS COUNTING TOWARD SALVATON.

NO THAT IS NOT WHAT IT MEAN, Read it again it is in PLAIN ENGLISH.

5I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." (1 Corinthians 5:5 NASB)

INTERPRET SCRIPTURE WITH SCRIPTURE:

1 John 5:16-17 (ASV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] If any man see his brother sinning a sin not unto death, he shall ask, and God will give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: not concerning this do I say that he should make request.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

Romans 1:26-27 (CSBBible)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] For this reason God delivered them over to disgraceful passions. Their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones.
[SUP]27 [/SUP] The men in the same way also left natural relations with women and were inflamed in their lust for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the appropriate penalty of their error. {AIDS}

1 Corinthians 3:15 (CSBBible)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] If anyone's work is burned up, he will experienceloss, but he himself will be saved — but only as through fire.

At the end of the day the word of God from salvation to the deepest truths that can be gleaned are spiritually discerned and cannot be known by the natural man....a man's eyes must even be opened to biblical salvation or they will remain forever blind to any and all truth.....the obvious implication is clear in his case......!!

dcontroversal · Oct 2, 2017

eternally-gratefull said:

Amen......or his version of Jesus is a watered down, inept, weak god that cannot keep his promises!!

PeterJens · Oct 2, 2017

VCO said:

There is a real spiritual truth here. How you picture an idea in your mind relies on a number
of reference points. If these reference points are set one way it makes sense to you, and
if set another way it means something different.

It is not unreasonable to be convinced ones own set of reference points is the definitive and
only conclusion. It is why it is difficult to actually see things as they are before the Lord.

The Lord is not like us. The issues at stake are not ours but His. We empathise, excuse, relate,
struggle through our existence, victims of our circumstance and emotions.

Pauls emphasis is always upon the journey of transformation, of the point of starting is very
different from the point of arrival.

So if you look only at an equation, I am safe or I am lost, you are looking at the wrong things.
In a family relationship, you ask, am I on good terms with these people or not. Do we get on
or are their subjects and things I cannot do?

There are things that will get you thrown out and expelled from the family, and things that will
encourage, build up and bring about encouragement.

There will always be some, who get expelled, a minority but they exist.
The focus is always on working things through.

Now if you have no life, and there is no relationship, then nuance, emphasis are irrelevant.
The language is am I safe, or am I lost. And the language becomes I am saved, these are
the words that hold me tight, and you are lost and doooooomed.

It is almost as if the stronger you try and grasp that which is not fully known or seen, the
more it evades.

Jesus put it like this

Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
John 12:25

Where is your heart? Where is your desire and struggle?

PHart · Oct 2, 2017

TruthTalk said:

Lol, no. Man does not have the capacity to know the gospel is true. Only through God's gracious gift of faith (the ability to know the gospel is true--Hebrews 11:1) can we then trust in the blood of Jesus and be saved.

PeterJens · Oct 2, 2017

Commitment

If a man sets out to climb a mountain, have they climbed it because they set out or
only when they have reached the top?

At what point along the expedition have they truly achieved their objective?
If they are still on expedition with expectation and dedication to achieve it they are
still on track. If on the other hand they have given up, lost the vision and say because
they set off with the objective they have now achieved it, they are literally lost.

A sinner becomes a saint at the point of putting trust in Christ. But at this point, only
a small part of themselves has changed but their focus and direction are altered.
Now each party has their own walk, and issues, and the Lord deals with each according
to His will and ways.

How true is the desire to start and finish, will only ever be shown through tests, growth
and the fruit expressed in ones heart. To believe one has arrived and it is just rest and
acceptance, is to fall in love with the world and failure. God does truly love us in our
sinful state, but He desires to teach us and train us how to walk in the light and live in
the light as pure, holy, clean children of the Living God, in the world but not of it, sharing
and being alive, yet walking in His will.

Obviously if fundamentally you believe this is impossible and not the promise of the cross,
then you have a different faith and a different view of what transformation actually is.

Some have argued that to believe God saves us despite our sinful state and continual slavery,
this is the power of the gospel, that the Lord accepts us and redeems us and magically we will
be changed when we see Him.

I would argue, Jesus is saying to follow Him is to be transformed into His likeness, to have ones
heart rebuilt, to have love and truth flowing, to know victory over the emotional giants that
flow through our lives because the King lives within.

PHart · Oct 2, 2017

VCO said:

It's interesting how you can't see that he has to die to the flesh SO THAT he can be saved on the day of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 5:5).

"...so that his spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord Jesus." (1 Corinthians 5:5 NASB)

He won't be saved on the day of Christ without fulfilling this condition, that's why Paul is turning him over to satan for the fulfilling of the condition to be saved. There would be no need to do that if, as OSAS says, he is already irreversibly prepared for the Day of Jesus.

I know why you can't see these plain words. You've been told over and over and over and over that this man is already irreversibly saved and does not need to fulfill any conditions whatsoever to saved on the day of Christ. And, perhaps, that's what you want to hear, so that's what you hear.

And at least truthtalk has realized I haven't been talking about works being the condition for earning salvation. From post #38161 I see he at least understands I've been talking about believing being the condition for being saved on the day of Judgment, even though he's confusing 'believing' with the 'faith' that God gives to do that believing. So he's very close to understanding the argument.

PHart · Oct 2, 2017

dcontroversal said:

Jesus is more than capable and willing to keep his promises to those who believe. He makes no promises to those who stop believing. Are you afraid of this truth? Are you afraid you will stop believing and be lost? Don't be. Jesus is there to help you keep believing if you want to keep believing but you are doubting, perhaps because of a difficult trial or temptation or besetting sin. He's there to help you keep believing so that you can be saved on the Day of his appearing.

PHart · Oct 2, 2017

Deacon_D said:

I would not have believed this for a moment....until recently. Look at this video, folks.

https://youtu.be/JW5dc4Y-12s

This is not a religious prophecy. It is an educated opinion of the financial conditions we are presently in. If I thought it was junk I would not post it. The bubble is about to burst here in America and it's not going to be pretty.

I agree with Deacon that it has been apparent that the USA has to be neutralized and made powerless before any end time prophetic move on Israel can occur. Our financial destruction will do just that. Let's just hope we can still exist without Russia and China occupying our land.

PeterJens · Oct 2, 2017

dcontroversal said:

This is the saddest statement that I can ever hear, in all eternity.

Standing in front of the cross, Jesus dying, love overcoming all emotional ties, to
family, to friends, to work, to enemies, to life, to national identity, to protection, to
hatred, to bitterness, to sadness, to joy, to life, yet here a man of faith claims his
sin still binds him in slavery, and this God cannot bring him victory day in day out.

Gods promise, His eternal call, that the whole of creation bows to, whether seen
now or not, is His love changes all of us, and is the source of all life and existance.
In His wisdom all things are held together and in this there is great victory and overcoming.

The delusion of some is though nothing changes, God has promised a victory when He returns
the fulfillment of the promise will be brought. But this is a deception of coming to
the gate and staying there while dreaming the words of promise will exist in another world,
while never entering in.

Jesus put it like this

Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering.
Luke 11:52

The irony is those who claim to be without law, will tell you exactly how they see the
law condemning everyone to hell, how this slip or that slip sends you to hell.

So rather than being innocent, their intention is to bring condemnation on anyone who
faithfully wishes to follow Christ by saying this is impossible. And the anger and venom
they spit is from their own attempts to assail the Kingdom by obedience from the flesh
with a hard heart, and finally losing faith and walking away defeated.

It is why me, not a legalist, but a follower of Jesus and His ways falls under their condemnation.

Their morality, the ethic of unbelief, destroys all the wealth their faith gives them.
They believe they are secure by seeing the promise, and then claiming it for themselves without
repentance, confession or sorrow for sin, and continuing to walk in darkness and rebellion.

preacher4truth · Oct 2, 2017

TruthTalk said:

Careful now, you're picking on their little god of free will-ism. They're special above others, they've chosen themselves into heaven by their own power, love for God (while at enmity with Him) and their own inherent good. God knew they would be good little folks so He rewarded them with salvation for their choice.

PHart · Oct 2, 2017

preacher4truth said:

This is what I've noticed about how indoctrinations work: Not only do they put blinders on a person so they can only see what they've been taught, they also keep a person from properly understanding the argument they are opposed to. It's interesting after all this time you still do not grasp the argument you are resisting.

gb9 · Oct 2, 2017

PHart said:

you mean like when people get indoctrinated with stuff like they do not sin ( peterjens) . or that belief in Christ is a work ? ( you) .

there are no sinless people. and belief is not a work. ya'll can say it all you want, neither is true. cause, you know, the Bible says they are not. in too many verses to list.

preacher4truth · Oct 2, 2017

gb9 said:

They have special knowledge, nearly the entire church is blind, but not them. They have the gnosis, just ask them, they see things in Scripture few others see. Heck, even the church fathers didn't see it. But not them, they have gnosis!

PeterJens · Oct 2, 2017

PHart said:

Brother, this is not a world of ideas, but the world of the heart and seeing purity within.
The reasons why we argue and reach out to others varies so much. I used to argue and
discover because discovery was what I wanted, maybe because I thought and felt through
knowledge I had security. There is truth here but also a danger. The danger of self deception,
of being caught in the prison of self justification and pride of attainment.

When I first became a believer beginning again was a difficult step. To know I was starting
again, for whatever reason I did not like inside. That others would be better than me, or able
to see things I cannot. Knowledge and outlooks can become prisons as much as anything in
life. If as a child, just enjoying time and space, is not possible, then I have missed something.

Jesus cried for Lazarus, because He loved His friends and felt their grief, even though He knew
what would be, He was with them as a brother. Do these believers feel with us, or have sympathy
with our expression of praise and worship to our King?

No. Rather I am mocked and told I appear christian but am not. This speaks about the heart and
where security in resting. Ideas come and go, but the revelation of Christ to our hearts is an eternal
realisation from the King. It changes us. But as we can see, many have closed hearts, and deal
with questions as if verses define truth, rather than show truth that shall come to live in our hearts.

Talking about who we are is dangerous as a friend pointed out who I was talking to on Saturday.
Each day we wake to a new day with how we feel about where we are.
It is hard to take what Paul says into true perspective

Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice!
Phil 4:4

Rejoice always, pray continually, give thanks in all circumstances; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus.
1 Thess 5:16-18

Until people begin to transform their internal view of life, gifts, direction,
success, failure, these are mere unobtainable dreams.
Paul expects this to be our daily experience, no joking.

You would not think this from a lot of sharing that goes on.
But to ask why is there a gap between peoples experience and Pauls language,
silence. Leave it to God to sort out. This is true, but God calls us to listen,
learn and obey.

PeterJens · Oct 2, 2017

gb9 said:

Good morning gb9.

As a person who claims to follow Jesus why to you lie so easily.
I have never claimed I do not sin in the past. I just claim I cannot speak about the future,
for that is unbelief. I will repeat this point.

When you get on a bicycle to ride down a road, can you only ride safely is you say you cannot
fall off, or you ride because you believe you will not fall off. If randomly you could fall off and
possibly kill yourself you would never ride the bike again. So many refuse to ride because they
are deceived into falling off is inevitable, so it is safer to never start. That is true unbelief in
the cross and what it means to walk with Christ.

Now I will oppose this unbelief and heresy because it denies what the cross means to followers
of Christ. The cross is victory, and forgiveness of our sins, transformation into the people of
the Living God.

gb9 · Oct 2, 2017

preacher4truth said:

with all that " knowledge ", one would think that they would understand that the Bible, the written Word, lays things out clearly.

they should not cloud things by attempting to change them.

like this- the Biblical definitions of sin, missing the mark, falling short of a standard, knowing to do good, and not doing so.

this levels the playing field, and puts us all on the same level. but, maybe they want to be " above ", and twist Scripture in the attempt to do so. ( and fail ).

PHart · Oct 2, 2017

gb9 said:

What do you think I've been saying all along, lol? I've been posting this verse to show that 'believing' is not a work of the damnable works gospel:

"5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness" (Romans 4:5 NASB)

See folks? Believing is not a work that earns salvation. It is CONTRASTED with work that tries to earn salvation. Those who claim that 'you continuing to believe in order to be saved' is a works gospel simply don't know the scriptures. They are the ones claiming that believing is a work that earns salvation, not me.

PHart · Oct 2, 2017

preacher4truth said:

All you gotta do is read the plain words of scripture right under your nose, lol. But I know there are reasons why the masses, even in the church, do not see these plain words.

It's ironic that you, a Protestant, would say this anyway. It was Luther and a handful of others alone who saw the scripture about salvation being by faith apart from works, while the church at large was completely blind to these plain words right under their noses.

And for a modern example, why is it that so many churches advocate tithing while not being able to see that you eat your own tithe two out of every three years and only give it exclusively to the poor and the alien and to those in ministry in the third year?

There is no 'special knowledge'. There are only people who, by God's grace, can see the plain words of the Bible for themselves. This grace is available to all. The question is, "will the others walk in that grace and see these words for themselves?" So far, the answer seems to be, 'no'. Paul explained that there would be many who would instead choose to follow after teachers who teach what tickles their ears.

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