Not By Works

[joefizz]

It's strange how people are saying that when we first believed 'having to believe in order to be saved' was not us trying to save yourself, yet we had to do that to be saved, but 'having to continue in that exact same believing to be saved' is now considered us trying to save ourselves. That doesn't even make sense. If my believing when I first started it was not a work of self righteousness then it isn't now. Believing is NEVER on the side of the works that can not justify in the Bible. Never. But the church has put it over there in their misguided zeal to preach Paul's warning about the works gospel.




Well, I have said this is the core question of whether OSAS is true, or not. The Bible is clear what will happen to people who do not trust God for salvation. That's not up for honest debate. What isn't so clear is if genuine believers can truly stop believing. I think it's possible because of how the warnings for believers to not stop believing are worded. And I know of Spirit-filled people who have abandoned their faith and by their own admission do not believe anymore. But I definitely fall heavily on the side of the argument that the warnings to not fall away are sufficient to keep the vast majority of believers believing and, therefore, saved.



That is very clear. I make the distinction by often using the word 'trust' when referring to true believing. That is the faith that saves--the faith that is trusting God for the forgiveness of sin.

The demons do not have that faith. They only know the gospel is true, that's all. They certainly are not trusting in the gospel that they know is true better than you and I know it's true. Demons are neither trusting nor working to be saved through a knowledge of the gospel. And truthfully, that's how I would describe most people in the church today. They only have the faith of demons--the faith that James says can not save. It neither trusts nor works. I don't even know of anybody in the church who is working to save themselves. That message is thoroughly understood by the church, but it seems to be the favorite source of sermon material for pastors and wannabe pastors. What isn't so well understood by the church is the Bible's exhortations to continue to believe, but no pastors make that the topic of their sermons.

Well that just throws a monkey wrench into everything if it isn't clear to you whether or not that one can lose salvation then why teach something you aren't certain of?
For me it is certain that one cannot unbelieve once truly believing upon Jesus,sure after starting out learning for some years even for many years can a person give up on a hope of salvation,but that is only because they never believed upon Jesus to begin with,I've had talks with even ex christians as they like to call themselves and many believe in deconverting or even some that they have done all they can for Jesus but when things got "tough" they supposedly left Christianity,even Jesus and God,which is preposterous,think on Jonah he was a "True believer" and he attempted to abandon God but lo and behold he could not,God impeded his advance toward Tarsus and even through a great fish brought him to where he had ordered him to go,once you believe upon God truly believe upon him in any of his manifested forms(original form,Jesus,holy spirit)and are in service to him there is no abandoning him,disowning or disbelieving,the only alternative is death which naturally is up to God when one might pass away,that is a common misconception people think "I served God now I can leave him" nope,a person's service with God is until death,if it's possible for one to freely go away from God then they never were for him to begin with.

 

[joefizz]

Hahahhaha hilarious Joe....peace from Australia....sitting in Westfield plaza in Penrith just west of Sydney....530 P.M. Thursday Night.....

I was serious,where are the posts of Garfield and lasagna lol!?

 

[dcontroversal]

I was serious,where are the posts of Garfield and lasagna lol!?

Hahah no worries mate.....the street organ player always plays for coins at some stage.....

 

[loveme1]

the Essenes of Qumran were writing new covenant theology at this time, they even called themselves a new covenant community, they still obeyed the law. James and the Nazarenes called themselves doers of the law.

They Believed my dear they had Faith that worketh by Love.

GOD is pleased with the willing Believing not the unbelieving no can do attitude..

The New Covenant is GOD writing His Law in our hearts and in our mind.... through Faith in His Son who taught us the Royal Law that we are to be doers of...

under Grace at Liberty to Love GOD and each other.. to forgive as we are forgiven...

According to some this is a working Gospel... and we are saved by Faith alone.. nothing you do can take your gift away... it is highminded and unbelieving of the Messiah who teaches us to hear and do His Commands.. for His words give life.. and while some believe we do nothing.. others know we are saved unto His good works.. if we say we believe but not moved from inside to be Christ like then I'm unsure if we are worthy to walk in white with Him.. for He states we are to be perfect and Righteous.. and to believe is to set our heart to obey Him.. because those that Love Him do the things He says..

The accusation of fallen from Grace if we do works are thrown out even though they are in reference to those who are losing Faith in the New better wine and being beguiled to Keep the law of Moses to be saved.. as in going back to the old wine..

The saints Keep the Commandments of GOD and Have the Faith in Jesus which is because the Messiah taughts us to keep even the least Commandment and raised the bar.. as in we need to be perfect and righteous.. now believing Him is the beginning and the end.. Faith in Christ is to grow in Grace and knowledge to be obedient children of GOD.

I believe the GOOD Shepherd the Bishop of my soul and I shall be Faithful and strengthened by the power of GOD because I believe..

 

[PHart]

More flipping Pancakes Pfart, so a believer can lose their salvation ....by becoming an ex-believer.

No flip flopping. I've been saying this all along.

It is not God who keeps you eternally secure --

Wrong. God keeps me secure, not me. I access his power to keep me eternally secure through my believing. The necessity for my believing doesn't make me the source of my eternal security. The necessity for my believing is simply how I access that which is secure.

Paul contrasts the necessity for believing with the necessity for works to access that which is secure, not equates them as is being claimed in this thread. Works won't get you in and keep you in. Only believing can do that. And believing is not works. Paul plainly said so.

...it is you and you good works that keep you secure.

No, the power and security of salvation is the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sin, not in me, not in you, not any of us. Believing is how you access the salvation that is secure.

Believing/trusting in the blood is the key that opens the door to the house that will keep you safe and secure for all eternity. The boast is in the eternal safety and security of the house, and in God who graciously gave you the key to it. , not that you used the key and went inside where it's safe. So don't be afraid of thinking that you having to go into the house is somehow you claiming the power and security of salvation.

"Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end." (Hebrews 3:6 NASB)

The power and security of salvation is in the household and the builder of the house. Believing is simply how you access and stay in the security of God's eternal household. That's not a works boast. In fact, according to Paul, it's the exact opposite. But the church now thinks believing is a work of the damnable works gospel if you have to do that to stay in the household of God.

 

[PHart]

Well that just throws a monkey wrench into everything if it isn't clear to you whether or not that one can lose salvation then why teach something you aren't certain of?

There are many warnings in the Bible for the believer to not stop believing. And warnings as to what will happen if you do. So why does the Bible warn against that which you are certain can never happen? The question is, do the warnings always and without exception bring the 'real' believer back to his senses and keep him from falling into unbelief, or are the warnings there because real believers really do fall back into unbelief and we are to be careful not to be one of them? That is what is uncertain.

...if it's possible for one to freely go away from God then they never were for him to begin with.

Sounds good. And it's what the church had believed for decades and decades before this recent onslaught of the doctrine that we are not allowed to discuss. It's an easy way to reconcile supposedly OSAS passages with passages that defy OSAS. But it contradicts other scriptures. The simple answer that reconciles all the passages about falling away is that only those who presently believe are secure in Christ. That's the only answer that reconciles seemingly OSAS passages with other passages that defy OSAS.

The main problem with the 'they were never saved to begin with' argument is that Hebrews 10 plainly says it is talking about sanctified believers going back to unbelief and being condemned. The passage itself defines the meaning of sanctified that it uses. So we can't even argue about the meaning of 'sanctified'. The author defines it right in the passage.

 

[PHart]

Amen.......I wonder what dictionary they are reading or if they are really educated.....how does eternal = temporary or everlasting = temporal

The eternity of salvation is in God's salvation itself. The household and kingdom of God is what is eternal. The question is, are the people who believe in Christ going to continue to believe and stay in that which is eternal?

That question hardly defies the definition of 'eternal'. It's a different way of understanding the eternity of salvation that the church does not know about, and it seems a way that the church is completely unable to even comprehend, let alone agree with.

 

[PHart]

He obviously believes he can lose it or forfeit it......his god is too weak and inept to keep him saved and or keep.his promises....

Jesus begins, finishes and COMPLETES what he began in me..to say otherwise is to plainly state that Jesus cannot finish or complete that WHICH HE STARTED....to say this or imply this is to call God a liar and severly lacking in power

God's power is not what is in question here. He's not lying when he talks about his power in salvation. The question is are his people going to continue to believe and trust in the promise of his power and be saved on the Last Day? For it is THROUGH FAITH that God's power keeps us for the Day of Salvation (1 Peter 1:5).

Now you folks can claim the real believer can never stop believing if you want. When your day of trial comes that is when you can sort that question out for yourself. What I want to expose is the ridiculous teaching that says that you having to believe in order get saved is not a work of the damnable works gospel but you having to continue to believe is. What an absurd argument.

 

[PHart]

Saving faith will never fail because Jesus is the power behind said faith....he begins, finishes and completes the work of faith he begins in all......!

So what are all the warnings to keep believing to be saved for then? That's what you have failed to answer......besides you failing to explain how it is that you having to believe in order to be saved is not 'works' but that same believing is 'works' if you have to do it to stay saved.

 

[PHart]

Those who say you can lose it are saying you must work to keep it. Do good works, don’t drink don’t smoke and so on.

No, you must believe to keep it. Believing is how you access the forgiveness of God in Christ's blood. No faith--no forgiveness of God. No forgiveness of God--no protection from the coming Day of Wrath.

The 'do good works' part? That's the result of believing in and receiving God's forgiveness. Just as bad works are the result of not believing in God's forgiveness.

 

[PennEd]

I think this is what is at the core of Phart's grave error. This is HIS analogy he used in another thread to describe salvation. He truly does NOT believe he, or anyone else, HAS been born again, and HAS the Holy Spirit. He doesn't believe you will be born again UNTIL you actually get to heaven with your "ticket" firmly in hand:

Phart- "If I gave you a coupon for a guaranteed free Lasagna dinner and you lost the ticket does that mean the dinner was never guaranteed?"

PennEd- "Can he lose the lasagna dinner once he has eaten and digested it?"

Phart- "After he gets the Lasagna in the future when he redeems the ticket, no he can not lose it. Until then, he has a foretaste of the Lasagna, and a ticket in his possession that guarantees he will get the full meal when the ticket is presented at the great supper. If he loses the ticket he no get full meal."

I don't know what other conclusion to draw from his analogy other than he is NOT CURRENTLY BORN AGAIN!

This is exactly why he doesn't trust that Jesus' Work is finished. This is why he believes he has to strive to hold onto his salvation. No condescension implied at all, but he truly needs prayer that he will accept Jesus and rest in His finished Work.

 

[gb9]

I think this is what is at the core of Phart's grave error. This is HIS analogy he used in another thread to describe salvation. He truly does NOT believe he, or anyone else, HAS been born again, and HAS the Holy Spirit. He doesn't believe you will be born again UNTIL you actually get to heaven with your "ticket" firmly in hand:

Phart- "If I gave you a coupon for a guaranteed free Lasagna dinner and you lost the ticket does that mean the dinner was never guaranteed?"

PennEd- "Can he lose the lasagna dinner once he has eaten and digested it?"

Phart- "After he gets the Lasagna in the future when he redeems the ticket, no he can not lose it. Until then, he has a foretaste of the Lasagna, and a ticket in his possession that guarantees he will get the full meal when the ticket is presented at the great supper. If he loses the ticket he no get full meal."

I don't know what other conclusion to draw from his analogy other than he is NOT CURRENTLY BORN AGAIN!

This is exactly why he doesn't trust that Jesus' Work is finished. This is why he believes he has to strive to hold onto his salvation. No condescension implied at all, but he truly needs prayer that he will accept Jesus and rest in His finished Work.

if I could add this footnote- only the individual and the Lord know if one truly believes or not. that is why we should not try to judge another's salvation. God can rightly judge because he knows all. we do not know all. we should not judge. ( Jesus said the same thing. so did James.)

 

[blue_ladybug]

Shush up.. all this talk 'bout lasagna and Burger King is makin' me hungry.. lol

And I can't eat or drink anything today after 10 a.m. cuz I've gotta have an ultrasound today at 4 p.m.

So stop torturing the ladybug and stop talkin' about food.. :/



LOL

 

[blue_ladybug]

I'm right. I am always right. I am never wrong..

Now say it after me:

Blue ladybug is right. Blue ladybug is always right. Blue ladybug is never wrong..

Very good!! Keep it up.. bwahahah

 

[loveme1]

I think those who believe they have to work their own Righteousness as in quit smoking and drinking would be a law unto themselves... where would that work stop? You would become obsessed and burdening yourselves... is smoking and drinking a sin? Obviously smoking is not a good thing for the body and drinking until you are drunk is not advised.. we should be sober minded but a glass of wine or beer surely is not forbidden...

If you consider fasting as a Spirit v flesh.. your body wants you to eat but your Spirit chose to fast...

Do not be a law unto yourselves with works of self righteousness but have Faith in Christ my dears... the power is given through believing Him.

i have never been a smoker but I with a clear conscience could drink a glass of whatever I fancied and not feel condemned.. how ever if I went in to a shop and stole something deliberately I would not be feeling like my Faith is strong in Christ.. for all things through Faith in the Messiah are possible by the power of GOD. If you feel any temptation ask for strength and guidance ask for help in times of need.

We are at Liberty under Grace to choose good through our Faith.

It is believing you are to be perfect and righteous that sets you apart....

 

[Muzungu256]

Again, you're just using scriptures that when separated from the whole counsel of the Bible defend OSAS. Are you afraid of the scriptures that can not be true if OSAS is true and so that's why you ignore them?

such as???

 

[PHart]

I think this is what is at the core of Phart's grave error. This is HIS analogy he used in another thread to describe salvation. He truly does NOT believe he, or anyone else, HAS been born again, and HAS the Holy Spirit. He doesn't believe you will be born again UNTIL you actually get to heaven with your "ticket" firmly in hand:

Phart- "If I gave you a coupon for a guaranteed free Lasagna dinner and you lost the ticket does that mean the dinner was never guaranteed?"

PennEd- "Can he lose the lasagna dinner once he has eaten and digested it?"

Phart- "After he gets the Lasagna in the future when he redeems the ticket, no he can not lose it. Until then, he has a foretaste of the Lasagna, and a ticket in his possession that guarantees he will get the full meal when the ticket is presented at the great supper. If he loses the ticket he no get full meal."

I don't know what other conclusion to draw from his analogy other than he is NOT CURRENTLY BORN AGAIN!

This is exactly why he doesn't trust that Jesus' Work is finished. This is why he believes he has to strive to hold onto his salvation. No condescension implied at all, but he truly needs prayer that he will accept Jesus and rest in His finished Work.

Oh good.....a teachable moment. But it will have to wait until later when I have time. But in the mean time, study up on Hebrews 7:24-25, Hebrews 10:12, Hebrews 9:28, Corinthians 1:22, Ephesians 1:13-14, Romans 8:24-25, and Galatians 5:5. Note especially the word 'pledge', the down payment, in the Corinthian and Ephesians verses.

 

[PHart]

such as???

We can start at 1 John 2:24. Then we'll move on from there to more.

 

[PeterJens]

Imagine how lies grab a hold of you.

You get married and to stay married you must not talk to other people, in case
it tempts you away. You try very hard, but something in you wants to make contact
with others rather than stay faithful to your partner. Oh the condemnation.

Now in a healthy marriage you trust each other. I mean really trust each other.
You have all the interactions that seem appropriate because you know they love
you and you each share your contribution to life and society as well as to each other.

But you will not break the sexual boundaries, because you love each other, deeply.

What it appears to me is people are saying the boundaries are irrelevant, once married
to Christ you are His no matter how much you hurt Him and destroy the very things He
loves and stands for.

In truth if you love Him, and you know you are His, you simply want to do what both
of you desire, to love and see His Kingdom grow.

To know it is possible to upset and destroy the marriage does not invalidate it, it makes
its foundation real, and shows in your heart you love the other party deeply.

 

[PennEd]

Oh good.....a teachable moment. But it will have to wait until later when I have time. But in the mean time, study up on Hebrews 7:24-25, Hebrews 10:12, Hebrews 9:28, Corinthians 1:22, Ephesians 1:13-14, Romans 8:24-25, and Galatians 5:5. Note especially the word 'pledge', the down payment, in the Corinthian and Ephesians verses.

Yup. I am intimately familiar with all those passages. But answer this question. Are YOU born again now?