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Eze 28:
12) Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13) Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14) Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15) Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16) By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17) Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18) Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
Some people do not believe those verses are talking about Satan. I believe they are.
God does not determine who will be saved and who won't. He wants all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4). He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Pet 3:9).
You don't take it well when people disagree with you.
12) Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13) Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14) Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15) Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16) By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17) Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18) Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
Some people do not believe those verses are talking about Satan. I believe they are.
God does not determine who will be saved and who won't. He wants all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4). He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Pet 3:9).
You don't take it well when people disagree with you.
Regarding my belief about how predetermination works and why God is not a partaker in our evil even though He predestined every action, I will repeat my post I made earlier.
If you do not understand it, I am sorry. Use dictionary or something. Your definitions and conclusions do not correspond to my definitions and conclusions, so I am not going to agree with what you propose.
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Yes, every my action is predetermined, but God is not active in pushing me to evil.
As already Augustine declared, evil is a privation of being, whereas the action of God tends to the positive.
What does that mean? It means that everything that is created is falling to evil like everything you drop falls to the ground. Its God who makes the positive force by "holding it" in some level of good. His power is used in a positive way while the privation of us tends to evil.
So God actively makes you good (by His grace), but He can just "drop you" a little more and you are going to the evil way, like hurting somebody. This evil originates only in you, God will just let you do it, when it is needed for some higher good.
If you do not understand it, I am sorry. Use dictionary or something. Your definitions and conclusions do not correspond to my definitions and conclusions, so I am not going to agree with what you propose.
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Yes, every my action is predetermined, but God is not active in pushing me to evil.
As already Augustine declared, evil is a privation of being, whereas the action of God tends to the positive.
What does that mean? It means that everything that is created is falling to evil like everything you drop falls to the ground. Its God who makes the positive force by "holding it" in some level of good. His power is used in a positive way while the privation of us tends to evil.
So God actively makes you good (by His grace), but He can just "drop you" a little more and you are going to the evil way, like hurting somebody. This evil originates only in you, God will just let you do it, when it is needed for some higher good.
God has complete authority over what he established through Jesus.
But God is not a dictator, and He does not determine who will be saved and who won't.
One of God's promises is that anyone who hears the gospel and decides to believe it shall be saved (Eph 1:13; Rom 10:9).
This is not intended at you directly, Joe, but it seems like some Calvinists are afraid of the concept of free will. It actually makes them responsible (gasp!) for things.
But God is not a dictator, and He does not determine who will be saved and who won't.
One of God's promises is that anyone who hears the gospel and decides to believe it shall be saved (Eph 1:13; Rom 10:9).
This is not intended at you directly, Joe, but it seems like some Calvinists are afraid of the concept of free will. It actually makes them responsible (gasp!) for things.
But how do you believe? Is it something you drum up in yourself? Or does God choose to give it to you?
True story! And an experience!
I went to Baptist Sunday School as a child, memorized lots of Scripture, including John 3:16. But not the context.
I drifted away from God, became an atheist, then agnostic, stumbling into the New Age movement, which was terrible! Then, there was a revival in the area I lived. People were witnessing to me everywhere I turned. I was sorely tempted to lie and say I was saved, just so they would leave me alone. Lots of Scriptures preached to me, not a bad thing! And lots of amazing testimonies. About people that were completely hostile to the gospel, woke up in the middle of the night saved!
And yet, they and I ended up in Arminian churches. I was taught, over and over, that I could lose my salvation, which makes sense if I am the one who made it all happen, by my choice or free will. I was also taught to evangelize the lost, which was as good thing! But not in the way that I say a sinner's prayer, put the "Get Out of Hell Free" card in my back pocket.
I don't remember what I was taught from the Bible in those churches, but I denied my own coming to Christ. The Baptist Churches I went to, all taught eternal security. Which really only makes sense if God is the one who saves. Because if I chose to be saved, then I can also choose to lose my salvation, by walking away from God.
So, how was I saved? Well, after all those people telling me I needed Christ, and why, my future husband sat me down and told me I needed to repent of my sins. That was the part of the gospel everyone who was witnessing to me forgot to tell me.Because, they were using the carrot, not the stick. And that is an incomplete gospel.
My husband (forgive me for calling him that, but after 37 years of marriage, it is hard to remember a time when we weren't married!) told me about various people in the Bible who sinned and needed to repent. Like King David, and Mary Magdelene and Paul. It finally hit me, what the gospel was! I was too proud to admit my need for Jesus, until God spoke to me. He told me to follow him, and that he was the Saviour of the World! (Read John 3:16)
I did not save myself. I was evil. I couldn't bring myself to believe I was answerable to God! I wasn't free to choose or believe! But, when I heard that voice, I KNEW Jesus was God, and my Saviour. There was no "choice" to follow. No choice to believe and obey! It was just part of God saving me. Nothing I could do, and everything that God did do!
So many years off track in churches that really didn't know the Bible! Whose pastors had a year or two of Bible college after high school graduation, with no original languages, theology or hermeneutics. It was very sad!
But, I was moving towards a Reformed viewpoint, because God was leading me. Part of that was reading the Bible faithfully and studying it all those years. Part of it was reading what the Reformed viewpoint was. I thought the bottom had dropped out of my life, when I read that God saved us, and then we believed and repented! I had never heard that! (Well, I probably had, but it made no sense to me at that time!)
But the real reason I became Reformed besides studying the Bible, was simply because I knew I could never, ever have saved myself. I was pretty wicked! I ran in the wrong crowds, drank too much, and never acknowledged the evil in my heart and life. But, despite me, God saved me, totally and completely of his will! And yes, I pray for the lost and I share the gospel, as much as I am able.
Please pray for my sister, Michele. We had a great talk this week about God. (I've been witnessing to her since I was saved, 37 years ago!) But this time,. She got interested in listening to audio Bibles. So, I recommended to her some apps, I know that the Word of God is powerful! And I pray God will reveal himself to her in Jesus Christ, and he will save her!
Sorry to be so long again!
True story! And an experience!
I went to Baptist Sunday School as a child, memorized lots of Scripture, including John 3:16. But not the context.
I drifted away from God, became an atheist, then agnostic, stumbling into the New Age movement, which was terrible! Then, there was a revival in the area I lived. People were witnessing to me everywhere I turned. I was sorely tempted to lie and say I was saved, just so they would leave me alone. Lots of Scriptures preached to me, not a bad thing! And lots of amazing testimonies. About people that were completely hostile to the gospel, woke up in the middle of the night saved!
And yet, they and I ended up in Arminian churches. I was taught, over and over, that I could lose my salvation, which makes sense if I am the one who made it all happen, by my choice or free will. I was also taught to evangelize the lost, which was as good thing! But not in the way that I say a sinner's prayer, put the "Get Out of Hell Free" card in my back pocket.
I don't remember what I was taught from the Bible in those churches, but I denied my own coming to Christ. The Baptist Churches I went to, all taught eternal security. Which really only makes sense if God is the one who saves. Because if I chose to be saved, then I can also choose to lose my salvation, by walking away from God.
So, how was I saved? Well, after all those people telling me I needed Christ, and why, my future husband sat me down and told me I needed to repent of my sins. That was the part of the gospel everyone who was witnessing to me forgot to tell me.Because, they were using the carrot, not the stick. And that is an incomplete gospel.
My husband (forgive me for calling him that, but after 37 years of marriage, it is hard to remember a time when we weren't married!) told me about various people in the Bible who sinned and needed to repent. Like King David, and Mary Magdelene and Paul. It finally hit me, what the gospel was! I was too proud to admit my need for Jesus, until God spoke to me. He told me to follow him, and that he was the Saviour of the World! (Read John 3:16)
I did not save myself. I was evil. I couldn't bring myself to believe I was answerable to God! I wasn't free to choose or believe! But, when I heard that voice, I KNEW Jesus was God, and my Saviour. There was no "choice" to follow. No choice to believe and obey! It was just part of God saving me. Nothing I could do, and everything that God did do!
So many years off track in churches that really didn't know the Bible! Whose pastors had a year or two of Bible college after high school graduation, with no original languages, theology or hermeneutics. It was very sad!
But, I was moving towards a Reformed viewpoint, because God was leading me. Part of that was reading the Bible faithfully and studying it all those years. Part of it was reading what the Reformed viewpoint was. I thought the bottom had dropped out of my life, when I read that God saved us, and then we believed and repented! I had never heard that! (Well, I probably had, but it made no sense to me at that time!)
But the real reason I became Reformed besides studying the Bible, was simply because I knew I could never, ever have saved myself. I was pretty wicked! I ran in the wrong crowds, drank too much, and never acknowledged the evil in my heart and life. But, despite me, God saved me, totally and completely of his will! And yes, I pray for the lost and I share the gospel, as much as I am able.
Please pray for my sister, Michele. We had a great talk this week about God. (I've been witnessing to her since I was saved, 37 years ago!) But this time,. She got interested in listening to audio Bibles. So, I recommended to her some apps, I know that the Word of God is powerful! And I pray God will reveal himself to her in Jesus Christ, and he will save her!
Sorry to be so long again!
That passage is clearly speaking of the king of Tyre not Satan. Even if it were Satan there is exactly nothing there about election.
He certainly does determine who will be saved. Election. Funny thing how you hypocritically try in vain to prove Satan was elect but then you hate the doctrine of election at the same time and try to disprove it as a biblical doctrine regarding how God saves man. Double standards right, I mean you'll use anything but truth, yes? Lol!
Oh, and you don't know what those texts mean either. You know what Scripture says, not what it means.
People on Christian forums such as yourself in oblivious ignorance attacking God's truth is what we're dealing with here, not just people disagreeing with "me."
He certainly does determine who will be saved. Election. Funny thing how you hypocritically try in vain to prove Satan was elect but then you hate the doctrine of election at the same time and try to disprove it as a biblical doctrine regarding how God saves man. Double standards right, I mean you'll use anything but truth, yes? Lol!
Oh, and you don't know what those texts mean either. You know what Scripture says, not what it means.
People on Christian forums such as yourself in oblivious ignorance attacking God's truth is what we're dealing with here, not just people disagreeing with "me."
Ok, I'm confused with this one...We are not held accountable for what Adam did (his sin) are we? Aren't we all held accountable by what we know and for our own sins (individual sins) until we repent so that those sins are forgiven?
As for the children thing...I remember a kid that I went to school with one time crying and saying that someone told him that if he died he would go to hell because he was a bas***...(didn't know who his father was)...I just cannot see God condoning anything like that...Jesus said let the children come unto me and forbid them not for of such is the kingdom of heaven...I don't think God would hold a child responsible for what their parents did.
As for the children thing...I remember a kid that I went to school with one time crying and saying that someone told him that if he died he would go to hell because he was a bas***...(didn't know who his father was)...I just cannot see God condoning anything like that...Jesus said let the children come unto me and forbid them not for of such is the kingdom of heaven...I don't think God would hold a child responsible for what their parents did.
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J
I understand that concept of calvinism now that they think they are special,completely exempt from hell,but what I mean in more simplistic words is that God has control over salvation in that though through Jesus it is freely given to believers,he decides who is worthy of salvation,not of works but by accepting Jesus whom died for our sins,because remember there are quote "believers" that don't serve God yet lay claim to Jesus's name all the same in an attempt to do as they please and not face hell,so in such a case they are liars and will not have salvation for they treat Jesus's sacrifice and promise as a shield to hide behind,instead of Trusting in Jesus and serving him in his name.
We disagree. Was the king of Tyre "perfect"? Was he in Eden?
Exactly.
God elects people who freely choose to believe the gospel.
I never said Satan was "elect".
The truth is that people have free will, and anyone who hears the gospel can choose to believe it.
I believe that's true about you.
Where we disagree is on what God's truth is. You believe Calvinism is true, that God decides who will be saved and who won't. I reject Calvinism as not biblical.
God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4). He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Pet 3:9). He wants the wicked to turn from their evil ways so they might live (Eze 33:11). We have the ministry of reconciliation: we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God beseeches people through us to be reconciled to God (2 Cor 5:18-20).
Exactly.
God elects people who freely choose to believe the gospel.
I never said Satan was "elect".
The truth is that people have free will, and anyone who hears the gospel can choose to believe it.
I believe that's true about you.
Where we disagree is on what God's truth is. You believe Calvinism is true, that God decides who will be saved and who won't. I reject Calvinism as not biblical.
God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4). He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Pet 3:9). He wants the wicked to turn from their evil ways so they might live (Eze 33:11). We have the ministry of reconciliation: we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God beseeches people through us to be reconciled to God (2 Cor 5:18-20).
We are not accountable for Adam's sin, but because of Adam's sin, we are sinners.
Every human on the planet sins. But even if someone didn't, because of the sin of Adam, he still needs the salvation made available by Jesus Christ.
12) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
As a result of the sin of Adam, we all have sin "dwelling in us" (Rom 7:17, 20). We were "sold under sin" (Rom 7:14).
I am not positive..... But we cannot discount 1 Cor 7:14.
What I am certain of is that God will be fair.
Every human on the planet sins. But even if someone didn't, because of the sin of Adam, he still needs the salvation made available by Jesus Christ.
12) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
As a result of the sin of Adam, we all have sin "dwelling in us" (Rom 7:17, 20). We were "sold under sin" (Rom 7:14).
I am not positive..... But we cannot discount 1 Cor 7:14.
What I am certain of is that God will be fair.
Then explain what was satan and the others doing in heaven before the fall, where they not in heaven with God, are those that are with God his elect?, you don't get it because you have followed a falseness taught by John Calvin. Really I don't think you even know what he preached you just follow others who believe the same as you.
I see you been reading my post to others,,, you used the word shameful your just a copy cat your not very orginal at all.
I see you been reading my post to others,,, you used the word shameful your just a copy cat your not very orginal at all.
1. Angela, as always, I want to point out that I respect you, and appreciate you, before moving on to pick at something you've said.
You are my friend, as well as my sister in the Lord, and it's appropriate to be respectful of, and appreciate for, the brethren.
2. I'm not going to attack Calvinism here, I'm just going to nitpick a few points of logic...
and how, in this particular debate, we often use straw men without realizing it.
3. Although your testimony is moving, and powerful, and we SHOULD be using our personal testimonies in both our witnessing and our counseling... that does not mean some PARTICULAR POINT of your testimony makes a good PROOF for some particular little thing.
This isn't a matter of appreciating your testimony... this is a matter of logic, and whether or not some particular point of your testimony supports some particular point of this debate.
We all need to be careful of this...
myself included.
4. The point:
The final conclusion to your testimony, though very powerful and meaningful, makes a couple of logical errors in its "application" to this debate.
This is not to say I don't appreciate your testimony... this is just a matter of logical application to a particular debate point.
The issue:
When you state the reason you became reformed is because "I knew I never could have ever saved myself," ... although this is an important tenant of the christian faith, it cannot be applied, in this context, to this debate.
Why?
Because the other side of the debate ALSO believes the same thing.
It's like saying you became reformed because you believe in wearing socks and shoes...
but if you looked more closely, you'd see the other side also wears socks and shoes.
In this particular debate, your point carries no weight of logical necessity.
You don't have to be reformed to believe you cannot save yourself.
Most christians, who are evangelical, all believe the same.
Logical necessity cannot uphold the point "I became Reformed because of ABC" when the other side also believes in ABC.
This is a straw man.
It is a straw man, and a fair sized presumption, to assume the other side does NOT believe God alone saves them.
This is a classic straw man in this centuries old debate.
I know you are an honest person, and you don't intentionally set up straw men... but in theology, we all hear the straw men, and we sometimes have the straw men beaten into us... and we often use them without even thinking about it.
What the other side actually believes... dealing with the straw man:
Regarding this point about the other side believing the same thing: It is certain that, in traditional Arminianism, people DO believe they can lose their salvation... implying they "keep" their own salvation, and thereby implying they esentially "earn" their own salvation.
However, in the modern era, this is NOT what most "non calvinists" believe at all. And most people labeled as "Arminian" are NOT Arminian... this is just a label thrown on them.
I know VERY FEW evangelicals who actually hold to the Arminian view that they can lose their salvation. Labeling all non-calvinists as Arminian is a huge error, and is itself an act of setting up another straw man.
Conclusion: what has happened here?
1. By using a traditional straw man about the "other side's" beliefs, we create one particular distinction which DOES NOT REALLY EXIST, and then, on the grounds of this straw man distinction, we can easily claim "logical necessity" as the reason for choosing sides.
2. However, all of this is built not upon reality, but upon a straw man.
3. I am not accusing Angela of anything intentional or unethical. I think we use a plethora of straw men, CONTINUALLY, on BOTH SIDES of the Calvinist/Arminian debate... and we hear them so often we use them without thinking.
4. Let everyone take notice: if a good Christian woman like Angela, who is highly intelligent, and highly educated, and of good character, can make an occasional logical slip regarding these traditional straw men... then I think the rest of us are apt to do far worse, and we should be very careful in our reasoning.
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