For Calvinists: Do you skip evangelizing because God chooses?

[Issachar92]

Here you go again with I think I saved myself stuff...This is totally untrue and uncalled for...just saying...

Its the not of works fallacy. According to the experts, everything except belief is works salvation. All of them folks in Ephesus were godly christian they got baptized and lived right.
Not of works means works of the law, not obedience to Jesus.


Romans 3:10 is another popular one thats distorted. They just cannot see its not talking about every individual, which would contradict Luke 1:6 and Cornelius in acts. Its talking about jews and gentiles as groups.
They make the same error in not going back to the Torah to check the story of Esau and Jacob. I dunno how these guys get paid for this stuff.

 

[shrume]

...When the Christ was in the garden of Gethsamane, He prayed three times to let this cup pass from Him. What was in that cup that caused Him to pray three times to let it pass from Him, if it was His Father's will?

Jesus knew what he was about to go through. He knew he was about to be arrested, tortured, and crucified.

In the hand of the Lord is a cup full of foaming wine mixed with spices; he pours it out, and all the wicked of the earth drink it down to its very dregs.[Psalm 75:8] Our sins, and conversely His wrath, was in that cup. When the Christ drank of that most bitter cup, He knew that His Father would have to distance(turn His back on Him) Himself from His own Son. It was after He ingested this cup, He was then throttled and killed.

The Father never once turned his back on Jesus Christ. Jesus was quoting Ps 22, trying to get the people to understand that prophesy was being fulfilled before their eyes.

As it says God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.[2 Cor. 5:21] Notice, Paul said God made Him 'to be sin', not a symbol of sin, but sin itself.

Jesus did not become sin. Sin is disobedience. A person can be disobedient, but he cannot become disobedience.

The Greek is hamartia. It means "sin", but it can refer to "a sin offering." There are several places in the septuagint where hamartia is translated as "sin offering" (Exod. 29:14, 36; 30:10; Lev. 4:3, 8, 21, 24, 25).

When He ingested our sins

Where does the Bible say Jesus "injested our sins"?

our sins were imputed to Him, and He stood before God as a guilty sinner.

No, he did not. Jesus was without sin, and the Father knew it.

When He stood before God, God saw Him as if it were you or I. He treated His Son no differently.

Jesus was killed by people working for the devil, not by the Father (1 Cor 2:8; Acts 2:23).

That's because we can read He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?[Rom. 8:32] This shows God's justice in that even when His son stood in our place, God spared Him not.

God's justice required the sacrifice of a sinless man to pay for the sin and sins of man. The Father willingly allowed His Son to be that sacrifice.

Now, everything the Christ did, He did for His sheep. When He lived the sinless life, He lived it in their stead. When He died, He died in their place. When He rose from the grave, He rose for them so that they could live again, as Romans 4:25 says, He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification. Everything the Christ is, His sheep are. God now sees His elect with the imputed righteousness of the Christ. He sees them as if they had lived the perfect life, as if they have never sinned. God sees us through His Son.

Agreed.

That's why I will defend Calvinism to my death.

While it may not be in this life, one day you will learn that Calvinism is not true.

Everything the Christ did, He did for His sheep. If He lived, died and rose for everybody w/o exception

He did:

1 John 2:
2) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

then everybody w/o exception will be saved.

No, God requires a person to choose to believe.

You can not hold to a universal atonement and not be a universalist and remain consistent in your theology.

Once you understand that God requires people to believe on the work of Jesus Christ, you can.

 

[Issachar92]

And its true that calvin aint the problem.

He just built further on the foundation set by augustine.

 

[Issachar92]

shrume, I think the issue is:
They dont know that in the day of Atonement, the atonement was made for the entire nation of Israel, but if someone didnt humble themselves, they were cut off from the people.

 

[notmyown]

I do agree with much of what you posted here brother. The main part where I still struggle to see you point is where you said we can not believe in universal atonement with out being a universalist. There are just too many scriptures that say Jesus died for the whole world and for all men's sin for me to disregard. I in no means think that all will be saved so I am not a universalist by any stretch. I just can't find any other meaning to those verses such as 1 John 2:2 and the many other verses that state that he died for all. 1 John 2:2

“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for ​

the sins of

the whole world.”​

In my view, this is the gift of God (grace of God) to anyone who will accept it. He sends out an invitation to all, but we know that not all will accept that invitation. He knows who will and who won't accept him, but I do not believe that he predestined or made that choice for anyone. We become grafted in (elect) when we accept him into our lives. To the gentiles he says he grafted us in...to Israel he says they were cut out because of their unbelief...but if they abide not in their unbelief he is able to graft them back in again.(Romans 11)

hey, try this for another meaning!

Christ atoned not only for the sins of the elect children of Israel, but for the sins of the elect gentiles, as well.
"the whole world" is used many times in Scripture never meaning everyone who ever lived, right? 1 Kings 10 says the whole world sought the presence of Solomon.... what a crowd!
there are lots of other places where the word 'all' is used that doesn't mean everyone ever. i'm sure you can find them.

and did you know..... no where in Scripture are we told to 'accept' Christ? God doesn't send an invitation to the whole world; He sends a command to repent and believe the Gospel. He confers a saving grace upon His elect that enables us to do it. (ya gotta deal with that word; it's all over the Scriptures.)

 

[Depleted]

Actually that would not be possible,half were my thoughts the other half was the holy spirit,I'm probably going to barely remember a word of what was typed in my post,it always astonishes me when the holy spirit takes over what will be said,I'm barely even coherent and have had no sleep,5 am and going to church at 9 or 10 am,but only getting to sleep until 8 am,if at all,but what I do know is that God knows I always will stand up for children,for I was once one whom endure much far too soon,anyways,good night,I feel less upset now,that's another reason I love God,even when I'm steamed through his holy spirit I become gradually more calm to where I don't even feel upset,Praise be to God.

This is said outside any discussion, argument, or context in this thread. This is said Insomniac to Insomniac, AND I'll go one further, since I'm also a writer. All pure helpful hint category:

Lack of sleep is like being stoned. Everything seems like it's brilliant when we're thinking and writing it. It really does. BUT when we wake up finally (which, YAY, means we slept), and then reread the words, there is but one reaction -- embarrassment!

Some things I highly suggest NOT doing when you haven't had the right sleep or enough sleep:
1. Writing anything that can be seen by anyone else EVER. (This includes writing a shopping list for the spouse, but my record is 2500 words for a novel, that all had to be deleted after the next time I slept. )
2. Making any life-changing decisions.
3. Driving a vehicle.
4. Working with any machinery that can hurt you or someone else.
5. Going to church if you snore. (Don't ask, but talk about embarrassing.)
6. Saying what you did was related to the Holy Spirit.

 

[shrume]

hey, try this for another meaning!

Christ atoned not only for the sins of the elect children of Israel, but for the sins of the elect gentiles, as well.
"the whole world" is used many times in Scripture never meaning everyone who ever lived, right? 1 Kings 10 says the whole world sought the presence of Solomon.... what a crowd!
there are lots of other places where the word 'all' is used that doesn't mean everyone ever. i'm sure you can find them.

and did you know..... no where in Scripture are we told to 'accept' Christ? God doesn't send an invitation to the whole world; He sends a command to repent and believe the Gospel. He confers a saving grace upon His elect that enables us to do it. (ya gotta deal with that word; it's all over the Scriptures.)

Once a person hears the gospel, anyone can freely choose to believe it.

 

[Depleted]

He says it is God speaking through him. Then he praises God for it so that proves it.

Hey! Insomnia! Remember some of the less-than-brilliant things you've said and done after too little sleep, and then give him a break for being in the same place you were.

 

[Depleted]

I think the fall affected the whole earth. It didn't seem the animals were afraid of Adam, either. But this conjecture on my part here.

Odd thing I picked up from the Bible the last time I was in Genesis. God gave animals fear-of-man as they departed from the ark.

This amazes me. Think about life prediluvian. No big thing to get a hummingbird to land on your shoulder. Or a squirrel, a bird, a monkey, or a centipede.

Oh wait! Or a lion, or a skunk or a ....

Thank you, Lord, for making animals afraid of us!

 

[Depleted]

I still do not see in the Bible that the physical death is directly linked to sin in a meaning that without a sin they would live forever and nothing could hurt them.

The fall would be another creation, everything would have to be rearranged in the animal kingdom, in our bodies, in our planet or even in the Universe.
I do not see this in Scriptures.

I'm with you on not seeing that we would have lived forever in scripture without the fall. But I also don't see where it doesn't say that too.

And as for creation being rearranged at the Fall? It was! Thorns became a thing. Pain at childbirth became a thing. Bad plants became a thing. (Think about it. Poison ivy was part of the curse.) And a serpent had four legs, and now it doesn't. Creation was rearranged!

And, yeah, I have a theory on how it affected our bodies too. Not scriptural, but the Law of Atrophy is a thing. Adam lived for 930 years. 930 years! Whooooa! By the time of the Israelites came along, Moses was 80 when he started taking them through the wilderness. He lived for another 40 years, and died at God's hands before the Israelites crossed the border. 120 years old and still healthy enough to climb a mountain! He wasn't a fluke. Joshua was in his 50s at that first battle in the wilderness, and yet young enough to be sent to check out the new land.

My theory is Adam and Eve had "very good" genes, but the fall included abnormalities too. Little things that wouldn't be noticed for generations. And the further we went from original copy, the more the little things showed up. Anything from color-blindness to MD to autism to hemophilia. And, lo and behold, hemophilia was the thing that convinced people thousands of years later not to marry within the family. I do think the species of Man is atrophying through the ages. I suspect directly related to the curse after the Fall.

 

[trofimus]

Odd thing I picked up from the Bible the last time I was in Genesis. God gave animals fear-of-man as they departed from the ark.

This amazes me. Think about life prediluvian. No big thing to get a hummingbird to land on your shoulder. Or a squirrel, a bird, a monkey, or a centipede.

Oh wait! Or a lion, or a skunk or a ....

Thank you, Lord, for making animals afraid of us!

Its also given to fish. Do you have some idea what it can mean?

"And the dread and the fear of you shall be upon all the wild beasts of the earth, on all the birds of the sky, and on all things moving upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea..."

 

[trofimus]

And as for creation being rearranged at the Fall? It was! Thorns became a thing. Pain at childbirth became a thing. Bad plants became a thing. (Think about it. Poison ivy was part of the curse.) And a serpent had four legs, and now it doesn't. Creation was rearranged!

The only think I see changed was that they were pushed out of the garden so they had to work for their food on the field.
And because they had no child before the fall, we do not know if it would be painless or if some fruit in the garden would content analgetics etc....

God was only describing their life outside of garden. Their future. It does not have to mean God created something new. They lived in a garden, isolated from the outside natural world.

Serpent loosing legs - serpent was satan, right? So we should be careful if God is talking about the animal species we call "snake" or if its about satan.

 

[Depleted]

Yes brother, you too I Love You, you can say what you want to, too me I will never hold it against you or think anything different of you, for I Love You with all my heart. You are seeing me as I am,

Just so you know, lying about people and their beliefs isn't a good way to show love. Nor does it convince anyone you are loving.

As for crying for me? Many people have done that, and then gone on their merry way. I've cried over Old Yeller and ET. Doesn't mean all that much either. But when I cry and it means something, then I try to help. You simply attack, again and again. Going out of your way to find the opportunity to attack.

I judge by actions, not words. I see who you are. Who you are is someone angry enough to attack others who dare to disagree with you. And who keeps coming back, because once isn't enough.

(Pretty much why you're on ignore most the time. And, if you're wondering, generally only read what you say when others quote you.)

 

[1ofthem]

hey, try this for another meaning!

Christ atoned not only for the sins of the elect children of Israel, but for the sins of the elect gentiles, as well.
"the whole world" is used many times in Scripture never meaning everyone who ever lived, right? 1 Kings 10 says the whole world sought the presence of Solomon.... what a crowd!
there are lots of other places where the word 'all' is used that doesn't mean everyone ever. i'm sure you can find them.

and did you know..... no where in Scripture are we told to 'accept' Christ? God doesn't send an invitation to the whole world; He sends a command to repent and believe the Gospel. He confers a saving grace upon His elect that enables us to do it. (ya gotta deal with that word; it's all over the Scriptures.)

Thanks for the reply sister. I really enjoy posting with you. I am studying your post and do want to try and see each persons point in this matter. However, I have a different view of what the scripture is saying on some things....

With the word accept...I feel that this is our choice...
[h=1]Romans 10:9-10King James Version (KJV)[/h][FONT=&quot]9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

To me this scripture is saying this is what we have to choose to do or not...That if thou shall confess with thy mouth and believe in thy heart...

In my view this is saying that it is our choice...I think he is given us an option there.

As for the invitation, I get that from when Jesus says come unto me all ye that Labor...and also in Revelations 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

With the elect, I see it as God has foreknowledge...he knows who will accept and who will not accept...He does know his elect....He knows the beginning from the end...

Once again, I really do respect you and appreciate your response. You really are a dear sister to me.

I seen earlier on here where IamWhoIam was posting about love and how we should all try to love each other even if we disagree on somethings.

I can honestly say that you have shown me love and respect even if we disagree. So yes I really respect you for that...and I want to be more like that with all my brothers and sisters in Christ...so thanks and God continue to bless you.



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[Depleted]

Is there any biblical proof that babies, animals, people without mental abilities etc are guilty of something?

Well, honestly? I have no idea about animals. I don't know if God saves animals. I don't even know if he needs to. He never said.

But Jesus told what sinlessness is -- to love God with our hearts, minds, spirit and soul, and to love others as ourselves. Ever see a baby do that 24/7/365? (Ever see a baby do that awake for more than one hour? lol)

As for people without mental abilities? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't another word for that "dead?" Everyone has mental abilities at one level or another. And, I'm not being cocky.

This is my niece Sherry. (Well, she's older now.) Sherry knows right from wrong. She usually is happy, loving, and expressive, but she still gets her 'tude going at times. Don't we all?

[video=youtube;ocIERAw9MIs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocIERAw9MIs[/video]

So, what makes her different than anyone else? She's not innocent. Different, but not innocent. Does she not need a savior?

 

[Depleted]

How do you know they are outside of Christ?

Also, what would be the just reason (not just some "theological one") for them to burn in hell?

Sin! Isn't that always the just reason?

 

[Depleted]

I would but I just don't know him well enough...Guess I'll have to read up on him, and see what he's all about. Apparently there are more than just two extremes...Must be like extreme north, south, east, and west...I guess...but believe me when I say I don't want to follow any of those folks and end up on any one of those extremes. Just like Paul who didn't go chasing after the disciples, first thing, to ask them what to do. He said immediately he conferred not with flesh and blood.

I like the strait and narrow path myself...

And I hope you get there soon. (Because what you're teaching isn't the straight and narrow. It's bunk that filtered through the church for centuries.)

 

[Depleted]

Again, I'm not teaching anything...stating my view on it, but you can choose to view how God judges innocent babies and children however you want. We will all know in the end...won't we? I would suggest though you try to use love and kindness to your fellow man, though....I mean because that's what Jesus said to do wasn't it?

No, the Lord told us already. Granted, he never told who has been chosen and who he hasn't, but he did tell us straight up that the Father wroughts, and the Son gathers all the ones his Father gives to him.

As for love and kindness? Hmmmm, how'd that work out for Jesus when he was talking to the heretics of his time?

I'm trying to get people to believe in the right God, instead of the manmade god. Really hard while you're creating a god you can live with.

 

[Depleted]

Kinda of double standards being strung out there isn't it? Is Calvin supposed to have been like a new age Paul or something?????

Anyhow, who on here is calling themselves an Arminian...I've not seen anyone on here saying they follow him or even know who he was or what he was all about...Just saying...

Really is a double edged sword for you, isn't it? On the one side, you're teaching everyone Calvinists agree 100% with Calvin, while on the other side, you're distancing yourself from Arminius. How about that? You know as much about Calvin as I know about Arminius.

Either stop playing the "you follow Calvin" crap, or I continue to heap all kinds of crap on you for being something you don't know either. When you get over pretending Calvinists follow Calvin, I'll get over pretending you follow Arminius.

We call ourselves Calvinists, because you guys are totally clueless on the word we really call ourselves -- Reformed!

Plain enough?

 

[Depleted]

Here you go again with I think I saved myself stuff...This is totally untrue and uncalled for...just saying...

Free will and choice saved you. I am assuming it's your will, not someone else's will, right? In which case, what I say is accurate. You chose to save yourself of your own free will. That's what it comes down to, when it's not God chooses.