baptism

eternally-gratefull · Oct 10, 2017

One of these days people will understand, that even though I KNOW (at least I think) what you believe, other people do not. So when anyone comes into a place, and says baptism is REQUIRED, and then says it does not save you. You just contradicted yourself. (At least to people who do not know you)

Thats why people like me have to come in and question what you say. So they understand,

the truth is, those who have true faith will get baptised. Maybe not immediately (some have no access immediately) as well as do other things God commands us to do.

what they will not do is be perfect. So to claim one who has not been baptised right away is lost. Is the same as saying if they have not done (insert any command God gives) right away they would be saved.

ie. No one could be saved, Because we ALL have our struggles in certain areas (some do to fear of public do not get bastpised just because of this, it is not they do no0t want to , they are afraid to get in front of anyone, And that would be for anything n ot just baptism.

I have seen it take people years to get baptised because of this, then after they take that step they start praying publically, and their public shyness starts to wither.

Anyone who judges these people because they did get baptised right away. That's just wrong, period.

MarcR · Oct 10, 2017

eternally-gratefull said:

Lk 9:26
26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.
KJV

Baptism, as a first step of obedience after Salvation, is our first opportunity to publicly identify ourselves with Jesus; and show that we are indeed not ashamed of Him.

He_reigns · Oct 10, 2017

MarcR said:

I have observed that most people who get saved, cannot wait to get baptized and do not wait for any reason.

PJW · Oct 11, 2017

FlSnookman7 said:

In all the posts here concerning baptism, I have not seen anyone reference what happens at baptism as outlined in Romans 6:3-7.
Baptism is how our sins are "washed away", (Acts 2:38), but it is also how the old man is killed and a new man raised with Christ to walk in newness of life...rebirth.
No baptism...no rebirth from Godly seed which cannot bring forth evil fruit.

eternally-gratefull · Oct 11, 2017

MarcR said:

So your going to condemn them too? Let just come right out and say it?

A person who recieved christ in true faith, and has told many of her new found faith, But because of fear of STANDING IN FRONT OF PEOPLE TO DO ANYTHING, they are Afraid to publically speak or be seen in front of people so they have a hard time being baptised, which requires those things, and it takes them 5 years to be baptised.

Were they lost for those 5 years? Did their salvation not occur until they FINALLY allowed themselves to be immersed in water in front of many?

My sister in law, WHo is in heaven, could not be dunked because of a drain she had in her brain to release pressure due to a disease. Is she in hell because she did not get baptised?

It is one thing to say a child of God should be baptised, and as a disciples one should continue to try to (in a non judgmental attitude) lead them that way when the opportunity arises,

but to say they are not saved, and to say baptism is required. What makes that any different than preaching law and salvation by works?

Again, God made many commands, Why is it people only want to focus on a few commands, and say if people do not do them, they can;let be saved, but never focus on the many many other commands, as if they are ok?

eternally-gratefull · Oct 11, 2017

PJW said:

Romans 6 speaks of HS baptism, No man and no water can raise us to new life, only God immersing us into Christ and his death and burial can.

Acts 2: 30 does not say baptism washes our sin away, It says repentance does (actually the faith whcih comes from true repentance does)

mailmandan · Oct 11, 2017

PJW said:

In regards to Romans 6:3-7, as Greek scholar AT Robertson explains - Baptism is the public proclamation of one's inward spiritual relation to Christ attained before the baptism. See on "Galatians 3:27" where it is like putting on an outward garment or uniform. Into his death (ei ton qanaton autou). So here "unto his death," "in relation to his death," which relation Paul proceeds to explain by the symbolism of the ordinance.

The picture in baptism points two ways, backwards to Christ's death and burial and to our death to sin, forward to Christ's resurrection from the dead and to our new life pledged by the coming out of the watery grave to walk on the other side of the baptismal grave. There is the further picture of our own resurrection from the grave. It is a tragedy that Paul's majestic picture here has been so blurred by controversy that some refuse to see it. It should be said also that a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality.

*See post #33 on Acts 2:38. - http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/157961-baptism-2.html

hornetguy · Oct 11, 2017

eternally-gratefull said:

Nobody is "condemning" anyone. First of all, that is WAY above my pay grade. It is not my duty to "condemn" anyone, even if I had the power to do so. I'm glad God is in charge of that... He is WAY more fair and forgiving than any human would be.

Pertaining to being baptized immediately.... of course there can be, on rare occasions, instances that prevent immediate baptism... we can all come up with hypothetical situations. The discussion is about the necessity of baptism, not the hypothetical "I was in a space capsule orbiting the earth when I was saved... how am I supposed to be baptized" kind of thing.

I don't know of anyone who says those that are not baptized immediately are "lost".... What I said was, those that willingly CHOOSE to not be baptized, or who refuse to be baptized, are not obeying what Jesus told us to do. That willful disobedience at the time of accepting Jesus would cause people to question "are you really accepting Jesus, if your first act as a believer is willful disobedience"....

It is the teaching by many people that baptism is really not all that important... do it if you want to, if you choose not to, no big deal, it's between you and God... I've witnessed it in other churches... a friend of mine asked me if I wanted to attend his baptism (I definitely did)... and told me he had been saved several weeks prior, and that this coming Sunday was when the church was going to "do baptisms"....
That kind of practice is totally unscriptural, in my opinion, as I understand the scriptural examples and commands. "Just do it whenever it is convenient"... was never taught, or shown by example in scripture.

Reading scripture shows it to be of primary importance in believers' conversion and salvation.

Oh, and public "shyness" is no excuse. Nowhere does it say you have to be baptized in front of a "crowd"... you can be in the middle of the desert with only one person, if that makes it any easier.

Or, in a friend's swimming pool... it doesn't have to be a big, pageant kind of thing. Although, when I was baptized, it was at a city-wide gospel meeting... there were probably 20,000 people in attendance. I was first in line...

eternally-gratefull · Oct 11, 2017

hornetguy said:

and as I said, this would go for ANY sin, why do people want to just focus on one. Is a child of God perfect after they are saved? If not,. They must be refusing to do a lot of things God commands, otherwise they would be sinless.
The question is not should a person be baptised. We all agree, it is a command, so yes,

The question is, is it required, Required by its defenition means it is a pre requisite, i.e., If I am required to work to get paid. Work is a a prerequisite, I must earn my wage by my work

No, place this with salvation, Saytaing baptism is required, MEANS BY DEFENITION that baptism is a prerequisite, Meaning one must EARN their salvation by doing all that is required. (Paul goes into this in romans 4. Concerning abraham not being found by works, but by faith/

Even in Pauls day, people had to walk to find a body of water to be baptised in, I am sure they did not just get up when one person was saved and find that body. I am sure they had baptismal ceremonies. And took a group to do this (yes I can not find proof biblically, But niether can you find biblically that it is not true.

My church has bi-Anual baptismal celebrations, where up to 20 people stand and give their testimony, I have seen many people come to god based on these celebrations. This is also what they did on the OT when the precursor to christian baptism (washing of the priests) was done. It did not happen immediately, It happened when a group of people were being ordained as priests, the washing ceremony was a testimony to the people that god set these men aside to be his priests.

Again, I repeat.. Saying baptism is REQUIRED makes it a prerequisit!

Saying it is not required is NOT diminishing it, or even saying one should not do it, It is saying the truth, Baptism will not save you. It is not a requirement, but it is a command.

If baptism is a requirement because it is a command, then one must obey all his commands to be saved, Good luck fulfilling that requirement.

.

hornetguy · Oct 11, 2017

No, that is a misleading statement.... Jesus did not say that we are to go teach the gospel, baptize people, make sure they obey all other commands, etc....

He said go, teach, baptize. Simple.

eternally-gratefull · Oct 11, 2017

hornetguy said:

He told us to go baptise, That is a command for us not them, nice try.

Jesus said do not forsake the assembling together. That is a command.

Jesus said do not judge your brother, that is a command

Jesus said all kinds of things. And gave them as commands (including re-iterating the moral law of the OT as commands)

Baptism is not the only command God gave, that my friend is misleading.

He told the OT children of Abraham that if they wanted to partake of his blessings that must be circumcised. Yet doing it never saved anyone. Neither will baptism.

again, Saying it is REQUIRED as you are. Makes it a pre requisite, thus you are teaching works, whether you mean to or not.

hornetguy · Oct 11, 2017

No, that is incorrect. It is something that a believer does out of obedience... it is not a "work" to earn salvation.

It is no more a work than "hearing" or "believing" ..... do you espouse saying the so-called "sinner's prayer" ? That would be a work, according to your definition.

Jesus gave quite a few commands, but none of them were tied to our "great commission"... of how to spread the gospel. It was important enough for Jesus to include it in his final instruction to the apostles...and us.

eternally-gratefull · Oct 11, 2017

hornetguy said:

Then it is not required. It is however a command and as with all commands, Gods children should obey them, failure to do so will lead to much heartache, but not to a loss of salvation.

Why do you insist it is required.

Jesus commanded saved people to go and do the great commission. Including baptizing people after they are saved. What does that have to do with a person who is saved having a requirement to be baptised?

MarcR · Oct 11, 2017

eternally-gratefull said:

So your going to condemn them too? Let just come right out and say it?

A person who recieved christ in true faith, and has told many of her new found faith, But because of fear of STANDING IN FRONT OF PEOPLE TO DO ANYTHING, they are Afraid to publically speak or be seen in front of people so they have a hard time being baptised, which requires those things, and it takes them 5 years to be baptised.

Were they lost for those 5 years? Did their salvation not occur until they FINALLY allowed themselves to be immersed in water in front of many?

My sister in law, WHo is in heaven, could not be dunked because of a drain she had in her brain to release pressure due to a disease. Is she in hell because she did not get baptised?

It is one thing to say a child of God should be baptised, and as a disciples one should continue to try to (in a non judgmental attitude) lead them that way when the opportunity arises,

but to say they are not saved, and to say baptism is required. What makes that any different than preaching law and salvation by works?

Again, God made many commands, Why is it people only want to focus on a few commands, and say if people do not do them, they can;let be saved, but never focus on the many many other commands, as if they are ok?

EG,

I would have hoped you might know me better than that. I am not in the business of condemning people.

I post scripture when i think it is pertinent to a question. I don't speculate on how the Lord will deal with individuals in any circumstance.

eternally-gratefull · Oct 11, 2017

MarcR said:

I did not think you would

hornetguy · Oct 11, 2017

I am not the one that insists it is required. Jesus and the apostles insisted that.... I just believe it.

Amberlight · Oct 11, 2017

NoNameMcgee said:

i was under the impression there is a difference between being baptized by spirit

and by water

i wonder if the thief on the cross was baptized
.....

or Adam

i somtimes wonder if i have been baptized by water...

i thought i wasnt

but i recently remembered my step dad "baptizing" me in the name of the "Father the Son and the Holy ghost"
(not specifically in Jesus name)
as a very young child

but not by complete submersion

so does that make it void?

do i need to get re-baptized correctly by another man before i die or i will go to hell?

because i could do it in my tub myself if another man isnt involved

i have asked someone to baptize me

but they said they felt like they were still living in sin and werent worthy

and dont wish to disrespect God....

I think all those questions have been answered in the topic quite few times already.

NoNameMcgee · Oct 11, 2017

Amberlight said:

lol i only was addressing the OP

but i deleted the post anyways

youre just too quick

eternally-gratefull · Oct 11, 2017

hornetguy said:

Jesus and the apostles did not say one must be baptised to be saved, You are.

Amberlight · Oct 11, 2017

NoNameMcgee said:

Sorry my keyboard finger was on hair trigger !

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