IS A LEGAL MARRIAGE REQUIRED FOR MARRIAGE BEFORE GOD? HEBREW ROOTS/MESSIANIC NONSENSE

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IS LEGAL MARRIAGE REQUIRED TO HAVE A MARRIAGE IN GOD'S SIGHT?

  • Legal marriage is required to have a marriage in God's sight.

    Votes: 7 77.8%
  • Legal marriage is not required to have a marriage in God's sight; no legal commitment is required.

    Votes: 2 22.2%

  • Total voters
    9
G

GaryA

Guest
#21
That's because, although you have had five husbands, the man you live with now is not your husband. That much was the truth. John 4:18 ERV

Playing house and labeling the arrangement as a marriage is sin. God is not to be mocked.
I don't know exactly what your thread is driving at. If two virgins fornicate, I suspect the Lord sees them as married to each other from that point on. I do think marriage should be formalized, though perhaps one could hypothesize a situation where that would be impossible.
John 4:

[SUP]17[/SUP] The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband: [SUP]18[/SUP] For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.



I am inclined to believe that these verses indicate that "simply having sex" does not constitute 'marriage'. ( think: fornication )

As to the title question -- I personally believe that it is the vows of a man and a woman that 'bind' them in marriage before God.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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#22
I just wonder how that term "consummation" came about..
 

EarnestQ

Senior Member
Apr 28, 2016
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#23
Ok what if you have a civil marriage and not a Church or Christian marriage are you married in God's eyes?
Just to flip it around.
Blessings
Bill

I surely hope so because that is all my wife and I did.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#24
It seems quite interesting from the OP that those proclaiming Jewish roots, don't seem to have much in common with the Jews regarding marriage.

Jesus' mother was betrothed to Joseph before marriage. This was unlike our engagements today as 'betrothal was legally binding' hence why it is said Joseph sought to divorce her quietly Matt 1:19;(even though there had yet been a marriage).
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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#25
Lest anyone think I'm insane, I don't even question whether legal marriage is required to be considered married before God.

But, I have been hearing this nonsense from Hebrew Roots/Messianic/Torah observer type people.

The claim is that you don't need to be legally married to someone to be married in God's eyes. All you need to do is have sex with a woman, with no commitment, and she is your wife.

Well, I am wondering if anyone here agrees with that. It is insanity. Those who are living with someone and engaging in sex with them are in GROSS IMMORALITY if they are not legally married. They are not living a godly life. Quit fooling yourself. You have something other than a wife if you're not legally married and having sex with her.

And, it is ironic that they are judging non-observant Christians while committing this type of immorality. Many of them claim that other non-observant organizations are the Daughter of Babylon, and claim they are engaging in Ishtar worship, etcetera..same nonsense claims that other cultic groups make. Talk about swallowing a camel while straining gnats.

And, sadly, some of these guys are considered to be teachers.

Yet, some of them AREN'T EVEN LEGALLY MARRIED. How hypocritical can you get?

I think part of this claim is related to the rebellion that they exhibit toward the government, which is also counter-Scriptural per Romans 13.

Realize, folks, that some of these guys who are considered teachers are advocating highly immoral things that are clearly counter-Scriptural.


Dt 22:28-29
28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
KJV

This seems to indicate that the act of intercourse with a virgin indeed consumates a marriage without need for formal ceremony; but it does indeed establish a lifetime commitment.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#26
Dt 22:28-29
28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
KJV

This seems to indicate that the act of intercourse with a virgin indeed consumates a marriage without need for formal ceremony; but it does indeed establish a lifetime commitment.

This seems to indicate that something that was being done was infact contrary to what was expected or right within the covenant community.

Hardly a defence for 'marriage' in any circumstance. The man was to marry the woman (and treat her right) and recompense to her father, due to the mans wrong doing.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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#28
This seems to indicate that something that was being done was infact contrary to what was expected or right within the covenant community.

Hardly a defence for 'marriage' in any circumstance. The man was to marry the woman (and treat her right) and recompense to her father, due to the mans wrong doing.
I certainly agree with you! However, the OP question, as I understood it, was where does this teaching come from? If I understood the question correctly, my answer was appropriate to the question, if not to Christian practice.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#29
I certainly agree with you! However, the OP question, as I understood it, was where does this teaching come from? If I understood the question correctly, my answer was appropriate to the question, if not to Christian practice.

Thanks for the clarification MarC, Now that you have stated that its not Christian practice.

I would suggest that it was not a good practice in OT times either, as it was a recompense, for a misdeed.
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#30
What if a pastor married you in a ceremony, but it was never filed with government...would it be considered marriage?
that would be plenty good enough for me.

as far as the state goes they can shove it.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#31
I think it has to do with legal documents as laws not subject to change to protect both parties . Some say why do I need a piece of paper or a stone tablet ? It would be like God not seen saying why would he need His thoughts written as the same spirt of faith according as it is written ? Just guess.

The letter of the law as that seen kills Just as in the bill of divorcement to the outward Jew.According to the spiritual understanding it heals as a law of faith .

Letters are required when those who do walk by sight according to letter they give permission to kill as it worked to kill the Christians. Out of sight out of mind,(walking by sight) or as it worked during the fifteenth century reformation letter of approval from the high Priest, the Pope.

Where there is no law there is no tresspass .(free for all) .

Words years ago had meaning . Marriage was a legal binding contract. Today the word marriage can mean whatever a person desires it to mean. Sounds like the Tower of Babel.

I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished. Act 22:3


It becomes the things of God or those of sinful men?
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
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#32
Thanks for the clarification MarC, Now that you have stated that its not Christian practice.

I would suggest that it was not a good practice in OT times either, as it was a recompense, for a misdeed.
Again, I agree.

I answered where the Hebrew Roots heresy got its idea. I never suggested I agree with them.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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#33
As soon as a man and woman "join together" they have become one flesh, and thus are husband and wife. No document printed on a piece of paper given by the city or state has anything to do with this… So worldly, is a marriage license... Think spiritually, things above, Yah knows all...
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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#34
As soon as a man and woman "join together" they have become one flesh, and thus are husband and wife. No document printed on a piece of paper given by the city or state has anything to do with this… So worldly, is a marriage license... Think spiritually, things above, Yah knows all...
I also want to add that the OPs notion of "no commitment" is beyond a bad representation, in our modern times sex is much more common out side of marrige, WHICH IS ITSELF A LIFE LONG COMMITMENT, one is NEVER supposed to have sex with someonw they do not want to spend the rest of their life with.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,345
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#35
I also want to add that the OPs notion of "no commitment" is beyond a bad representation, in our modern times sex is much more common out side of marrige, WHICH IS ITSELF A LIFE LONG COMMITMENT, one is NEVER supposed to have sex with someonw they do not want to spend the rest of their life with.

Sexual union without the commitment of marriage, is a license for fornication. What does the bible teach? We understand the creation account as it explains to us what marriage brings 2 together as 1. How did the Israelites view marriage, was it just wam bam thank you mam now your my wife? I don't think so. Betrothal and making that public commitment is all part of being married.. different countries do it in different ways.. but the idea is the same.
 

mcubed

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2013
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#36
All I know about this Hebrew Movement people is what is what I read on here and I must say they leave a very bad taste in my mouth. No wonder so many people on here have a dislike towards a "real" (lack of a better term) Jew.


Anyway, when i was married to my ex-husband we had tires stolen. He called the police, they told him he could only fill out the police report if we were married, not just living together as man and wife. He said no, we are married. He could do the police report because we were "one" (my car they were stolen from). this was in the 2000's, common law marriage is only for divorce cases about property not "real" law. Well divorce is real law, if you have a good lawyer, but you get the point.
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#37
All I know about this Hebrew Movement people is what is what I read on here and I must say they leave a very bad taste in my mouth. No wonder so many people on here have a dislike towards a "real" (lack of a better term) Jew.
the real messianic Jews are just people trying to get back to the source of what Jesus and the 12 taught, what the mainstream church has fallen from. what you hear here is just people attacking non mainstream groups. anything outside the mainstream is always wrong according to these guys.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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#38
Sexual union without the commitment of marriage, is a license for fornication. What does the bible teach? We understand the creation account as it explains to us what marriage brings 2 together as 1. How did the Israelites view marriage, was it just wam bam thank you mam now your my wife? I don't think so. Betrothal and making that public commitment is all part of being married.. different countries do it in different ways.. but the idea is the same.
I agree sex without the agreement is fornication. One could make the agreement know to just the 2 involved, or everyone they know, eith way Yah knows and what the state says is nothing. Im saying a certifacate from the state office does not make it Yah approved.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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#39
Genesis 2:22-24, "And the rib which יהוה Ylohim had taken from the man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man. And the man said, “This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh. This one is called ‘woman,’ because she was taken out of man. For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife, and they shall become one flesh."



Mark 10:6, “However, from the beginning of the creation, Yah ‘made them male and female. For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh, so that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what Yah has joined together, let man not separate.”


Hebrew 13:4, “Let marriage be respected by all, and the bed be undefiled. But Yah shall judge those who whore, and adulterers.”


Matthew 19:3-6, “And the Pharisees came to Him, trying Him, and saying to Him, “Is it right for a man to put away his wife for every reason? And He answering, said to them, “Did you not read that He who made them at the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what Yah has joined together, let man not separate.”


Entering into a marriage is a life long agreement.


Ecclesiastes 9:9, “See life with the wife whom you love all the days of your futile life which He has given you under the sun, all your days of futility. For that is your share in life, and in your toil which you have labored under the sun.”


Ephesians 5:28-33, “In this way husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but feeds and cherishes it, as also the Master does the assembly. Because we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. This secret is great, but I speak concerning Messiah and the assembly. However, you too, everyone, let each one love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she fears her husband.”


2 Corinthians 6:14, "Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness and lawlessness? And what fellowship has light with darkness?"


Deuteronomy 7:2-4, “And when יהוה your Strength gives them over to you, you shall strike them and put them under the ban, completely. Make no covenant with them, and show them no favor. And do not intermarry with them – you do not give your daughter to his son, and you do not take his daughter for your son, for he turns your sons away from following Me, to serve other mighty ones. Then the displeasure of יהוה shall burn against you and promptly destroy you.”


Exodus 20:17, “You do not covet your neighbor's house, you do not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, or whatever belongs to your neighbor.”


Matthew 5:32, “But I say to you that whoever puts away his wife, except for the matter of whoring, makes her commit adultery. And whoever marries a woman who has been put away commits adultery.”


Mat 19:9, “And I say to you, whoever puts away his wife, except on the ground of whoring, and marries another, commits adultery. And whoever marries her who has been put away commits adultery.”


Deuteronomy 24:1, “When a man takes a wife and shall marry her, then it shall be, if she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found a matter of uncoveredness in her, and he shall write her a certificate of divorce, and put it in her hand, and send her out of his house, (Proof that she is not a maiden, indicating that she had previously been fornicating)


Isaiah 62:5, "For as a young man marries a maiden, so shall your sons marry you. And as the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, so shall your Father rejoice over you."


Isaiah 54:5, "“For your Maker is your husband, יהוה of hosts is His Name, and the Set-apart One of Yisra’ĕl is your Redeemer. He is called the Strength of all the earth."


Ephesians 5:25, "Husbands, love your wives, as Messiah also did love the assembly and gave Himself for it,"


Proverbs 31:10, "Who does find a capable wife? For she is worth far more than jewels."


Proverbs 18:22, "He who has found a wife has found good, And receives favor from יהוה."
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,345
2,157
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#40
I agree sex without the agreement is fornication. One could make the agreement know to just the 2 involved, or everyone they know, eith way Yah knows and what the state says is nothing. Im saying a certifacate from the state office does not make it Yah approved.

Sex with agreement outside marriage is fornication!