IS A LEGAL MARRIAGE REQUIRED FOR MARRIAGE BEFORE GOD? HEBREW ROOTS/MESSIANIC NONSENSE

[Hizikyah]

In my opinion this is the most important; Only joining to one whom Yah approves, and that there be true loyalty;

2 Corinthians 6:14, "Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness and lawlessness? And what fellowship has light with darkness?"

Deuteronomy 7:2-4, “And when יהוה your Strength gives them over to you, you shall strike them and put them under the ban, completely. Make no covenant with them, and show them no favor. And do not intermarry with them – you do not give your daughter to his son, and you do not take his daughter for your son, for he turns your sons away from following Me, to serve other mighty ones. Then the displeasure of יהוה shall burn against you and promptly destroy you.”

Ephesians 5:25, "Husbands, love your wives, as Messiah also did love the assembly and gave Himself for it,"

 

[Hizikyah]

Sex with agreement outside marriage is fornication!

Yes. That is exactly what I said in the post you quoted...

I agree sex without the agreement is fornication....

 

[jaybird88]

Sex with agreement outside marriage is fornication!

you have a scripture for this?

 

[Redeemed2015]

All I know about this Hebrew Movement people is what is what I read on here and I must say they leave a very bad taste in my mouth.

I would ask that you take everything said about Hebrew Roots believers with a grain of salt because most don't rightly paint us in a positive light out of ignorance of our beliefs. If you have questions about a Hebrew Roots Believer then ask one, personally. Don't take others words for it without actually righteously judging the fruit that we bear for yourself.

 

[Hizikyah]

Matthew 15:19, “For out of the heart come evil thoughts; murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.”

“sexual immorality” is word G4202 πορνεία porneia (por-nei'-a) n.
1. prostitution (including adultery, incest, and porn).
2. (by extension) unwedded stimulation or fulfillment of sexual desire.
3. (figuratively) idolatry.
[from G4203], KJV: fornication , Root(s): G4203, See also: H8457

 

[jaybird88]

Matthew 15:19, “For out of the heart come evil thoughts; murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.”

“sexual immorality” is word G4202 πορνεία porneia (por-nei'-a) n.
1. prostitution (including adultery, incest, and porn).
2. (by extension) unwedded stimulation or fulfillment of sexual desire.
3. (figuratively) idolatry.
[from G4203], KJV: fornication , Root(s): G4203, See also: H8457

where is fornication defined in the bible?

 

[Hizikyah]

where is fornication defined in the bible?

maythe peace of Yah be upon you brother J.

OK so one must know the Law of Yah, concerning joining agreement. I honestly believe it is shown in all the Laws, that once we join with a woman in intercourse we should have already married her, this is evident. Now she or her father can refuse to give her in marriage. Honestly does anyone think it is justifiable before Yah for a man or woman to sleep with others outside of this agreement?

Exodus 22:16-17, “And when a man entices a maiden who is not engaged, and lies with her, he shall certainly pay the bride-price for her to be his wife. If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he pays according to the bride-price of maidens.”

There is more on this topic but honestly I have not studied it much, because in my heart I believe marriage agreement before Yah is right.

 

[phil36]

you have a scripture for this?

Fornication is sex between 2 consenting people. You understand that part. Anything that involves sex outside of marriage is 'sexual immorality'. Have a read its a good as place to start as any. Its all in context of marriage anything else is sexual immorality.

1 Corinthians 7:1-10 New International Version - UK (NIVUK)

[FONT=&quot] Now for the matters you wrote about: ‘It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.’ 2 But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband. 3 The husband should fulfil his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife. 5 Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6 I say this as a concession, not as a command. 7 I wish that all of you were as I am. But each of you has your own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 Now to the unmarried[a] and the widows I say: it is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. 9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): a wife must not separate from her husband. 11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.[/FONT]

 

[jaybird88]

Fornication is sex between 2 consenting people. You understand that part. Anything that involves sex outside of marriage is 'sexual immorality'. Have a read its a good as place to start as any. Its all in context of marriage anything else is sexual immorality.

1 Corinthians 7:1-10 New International Version - UK (NIVUK)

Now for the matters you wrote about: ‘It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.’ 2 But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband. 3 The husband should fulfil his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife. 5 Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6 I say this as a concession, not as a command. 7 I wish that all of you were as I am. But each of you has your own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.
8 Now to the unmarried[a] and the widows I say: it is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. 9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): a wife must not separate from her husband. 11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.

i see rules for husbands and wives.
i see rules for unmarried that can not control sexual urges. what i dont see is fornication defined. do you have a scripture for that?

here are the sex laws in Leviticus:

[SUP]6 [/SUP]“None of you shall approach any one of his close relatives to uncover nakedness. I am the Lord. [SUP]7 [/SUP]You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father, which is the nakedness of your mother; she is your mother, you shall not uncover her nakedness. [SUP]8 [/SUP]You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father's wife; it is your father's nakedness. [SUP]9 [/SUP]You shall not uncover the nakedness of your sister, your father's daughter or your mother's daughter, whether brought up in the family or in another home. [SUP]10 [/SUP]You shall not uncover the nakedness of your son's daughter or of your daughter's daughter, for their nakedness is your own nakedness. [SUP]11 [/SUP]You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father's wife's daughter, brought up in your father's family, since she is your sister. [SUP]12 [/SUP]You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father's sister; she is your father's relative. [SUP]13 [/SUP]You shall not uncover the nakedness of your mother's sister, for she is your mother's relative. [SUP]14 [/SUP]You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father's brother, that is, you shall not approach his wife; she is your aunt. [SUP]15 [/SUP]You shall not uncover the nakedness of your daughter-in-law; she is your son's wife, you shall not uncover her nakedness. [SUP]16 [/SUP]You shall not uncover the nakedness of your brother's wife; it is your brother's nakedness. [SUP]17 [/SUP]You shall not uncover the nakedness of a woman and of her daughter, and you shall not take her son's daughter or her daughter's daughter to uncover her nakedness; they are relatives; it is depravity. [SUP]18 [/SUP]And you shall not take a woman as a rival wife to her sister, uncovering her nakedness while her sister is still alive.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]“You shall not approach a woman to uncover her nakedness while she is in her menstrual uncleanness. [SUP]20 [/SUP]And you shall not lie sexually with your neighbor's wife and so make yourself unclean with her. [SUP]21 [/SUP]You shall not give any of your children to offer them[SUP][b][/SUP] to Molech, and so profane the name of your God: I am the Lord. [SUP]22 [/SUP]You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. [SUP]23 [/SUP]And you shall not lie with any animal and so make yourself unclean with it, neither shall any woman give herself to an animal to lie with it: it is perversion.

very specific and there is no mention of sex with a woman before marriage.

 

[mcubed]

I would ask that you take everything said about Hebrew Roots believers with a grain of salt because most don't rightly paint us in a positive light out of ignorance of our beliefs. If you have questions about a Hebrew Roots Believer then ask one, personally. Don't take others words for it without actually righteously judging the fruit that we bear for yourself.

This is a very fair statement and thank you.

 

[jaybird88]

maythe peace of Yah be upon you brother J.

OK so one must know the Law of Yah, concerning joining agreement. I honestly believe it is shown in all the Laws, that once we join with a woman in intercourse we should have already married her, this is evident. Now she or her father can refuse to give her in marriage. Honestly does anyone think it is justifiable before Yah for a man or woman to sleep with others outside of this agreement?

Exodus 22:16-17, “And when a man entices a maiden who is not engaged, and lies with her, he shall certainly pay the bride-price for her to be his wife. If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he pays according to the bride-price of maidens.”

There is more on this topic but honestly I have not studied it much, because in my heart I believe marriage agreement before Yah is right.

Shalom HZ!
i dont think its right for a man or woman to have sex with different people. IMO fornication is breaking the sex laws listed in Lev. my biggest issue with all this is suggesting a man and women having sex with each other and only each other yet not married is no different than a man having sex with a farm animal. its absurd.
the sex they were dealing with in greece was pretty raunchy stuff.

 

[Amberlight]

Shalom HZ!
i dont think its right for a man or woman to have sex with different people. IMO fornication is breaking the sex laws listed in Lev. my biggest issue with all this is suggesting a man and women having sex with each other and only each other yet not married is no different than a man having sex with a farm animal. its absurd.
the sex they were dealing with in greece was pretty raunchy stuff.

I think you spend way too much time thinking about (sex, sex "laws", fornication, not to mention farm animals)

 

[mcubed]

Shalom HZ!
i dont think its right for a man or woman to have sex with different people. IMO fornication is breaking the sex laws listed in Lev. my biggest issue with all this is suggesting a man and women having sex with each other and only each other yet not married is no different than a man having sex with a farm animal. its absurd.
the sex they were dealing with in greece was pretty raunchy stuff.

Are you not married and have sex with many different people or one person, that special person you are not married to and have sex with and want it to not be sin?

 

[Desertsrose]

Hi sparksman.

What is messianic nons?

I'm not sure about what constitutes legal.

Abraham sent Eleazar to find a wife for Isaac. They went into the tent to consummate their marriage when Eleazar brought . There wasn't such a thing as a legal marriage. It seems that the intent for marriage was enough and the consummation was the ceremony so to speak. Although there's to be a bride price. Eleazar gave gifts to Rebecca, her dad and her mom.

Jacob works for his wife and pays quite a price. The text of the story doesn't speak of a legal marriage. The consummation again was considered the marriage ceremony. The contract or bride price was the 7 years of work for Laban.

Jacob was tricked into marriage and didn't intend to marry Leah. But he was stuck with her because it was the custom that the older daughter got married first. Jacob had to work an extra 7 years to be able to marry Rachel of whom was his intended bride.

We see a more formality when the Law was instituted. Because it was a theocracy, we can say that during this time the process of marriage from then on was 'legal' before God and before man. There was a bride price, but I'm not sure if they had a ceremony per se. What I remember from reading the OT was that the consummation was the ceremony, but it's been a while since I've read through the bible, so I'd have to check on that.

Each state has different laws to formalize a legal marriage. When I was married, the wife to be had to be 18 years old. I was married at 17 and my parents has to sign their approval.

Each state will have different laws and each country has different laws about marriage. We now have laws that state homosexuals are legally married.

So I'm not sure about whether we need to have a formalized marriage according to the laws of the land. I guess if they don't go against God's laws it's fine. But what if they do go against the laws of God.

Some countries require the father of the son to have sex with the wife. I don't know if that's custom or their legal laws. But let's say that it is the law of the land. The groom's father has sex with the bride. In a case like that, I would say that the laws of the land are against God and if they decided to marry according to the Lord outside of the law that it would be fine with God.

In America one either get's a marriage license or they are common marriage and the law accepts both.

So can two Christians (one male and one female) who love one another and intend to marry until death do them part utilize the common law marriage and have God's approval? I don't see why that would be a problem.

I guess I'd have to think on that a bit and listen to views that are for and against. I've never seriously considered this before now.

 

[phil36]

The word fornication as explained above is an english word that translators used to describe sex outside of marriage, I use the word, but I know it is what is mean't by Paul by sexual immorality.

Did you read the 1 Corinthians 7, especially verse 2. I underlined it for you. I hope you understand it this time round. Any sexual relations outside marriage is sexual immorality. Therefore fornication is a sin - fornication meaning sex between 2 consenting people. Sexual immorality was amongst those Paul was writing to - he is basically saying if you want sex do it the right way, the way God ordained - Man and Wife.

So again anything outside of marriage is sexual immorality, fornication -which means sex outside of marriage, so it is sin. Of course, if one or both parties are married to other people then this is also sexual immorality (Adultery). So the positive God ordained role for sex is within the marriage bed..between man and wife, anything else is sexual immorality.

[h=1]Hebrews 13:4New International Version - UK (NIVUK)[/h]4 [FONT=&quot]Marriage should be honoured by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.[/FONT]

 

[Hizikyah]

Shalom HZ!
i dont think its right for a man or woman to have sex with different people. IMO fornication is breaking the sex laws listed in Lev. my biggest issue with all this is suggesting a man and women having sex with each other and only each other yet not married is no different than a man having sex with a farm animal. its absurd.
the sex they were dealing with in greece was pretty raunchy stuff.

Yes the level of sexual immorality is beyond what the mind can handle, yet our and Yah's standard is not lowered by others, and I'm not implying that you believe so, I know your seeking of Yah is sincere, you have shown me this. But I am glad this thread was made because I always wondered but never studied it too deeply, well I have found the place in the Law that states pre-marital sex is outright wrong;

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Leviticus 19:29, “Do not profane your daughter by making her a whore, so that the land does not whore, and the land becomes filled with wickedness.”[/FONT]


[h=3]“[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]whore” is word #H2181 [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]זָנָה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]zanah (zaw-naw') v., 1. to commit adultery (usually of the female)., 2. (less often) to commit fornication., 3. (rarely) to commit rape., 4. (figuratively) to commit idolatry (the Jewish people being regarded as the spouse of Yahweh)., [a primitive root (highly-fed and therefore wanton)], KJV: (cause to) commit fornication, X continually, X great, (be an, play the) harlot, (cause to be, play the) whore, (commit, fall to) whoredom, (cause to) go a-whoring, whorish.[/FONT][/h]

 

[OneFaith]

What if a pastor married you in a ceremony, but it was never filed with government...would it be considered marriage?

God expects us to obey Him to the best of our ability. If you were able to file with the laws of the land, but chose not to, you better have a good reason come judgement day. In the movie Braveheart, they married in secret so that the wife would not be raped by the king’s men. I consider that a good reason. But under normal circumstances, we are to obey the laws of the land in which we live- unless those laws go against God’s laws.

So what is God’s law concerning this? Does having sex mean marriage? No, that means fornication. When Jesus spoke to the woman at the well, He said that she had had five husbands, and that the one she is with now is not her husband. Therefore just having sex does not make you married.

 

[Hizikyah]

Is there anyone here who thinks sex outside of marriage is acceptable before the Creator?

 

[jaybird88]

Yes the level of sexual immorality is beyond what the mind can handle, yet our and Yah's standard is not lowered by others, and I'm not implying that you believe so, I know your seeking of Yah is sincere, you have shown me this. But I am glad this thread was made because I always wondered but never studied it too deeply, well I have found the place in the Law that states pre-marital sex is outright wrong;

Leviticus 19:29, “Do not profane your daughter by making her a whore, so that the land does not whore, and the land becomes filled with wickedness.”


“whore” is word #H2181 זָנָה zanah (zaw-naw') v., 1. to commit adultery (usually of the female)., 2. (less often) to commit fornication., 3. (rarely) to commit rape., 4. (figuratively) to commit idolatry (the Jewish people being regarded as the spouse of Yahweh)., [a primitive root (highly-fed and therefore wanton)], KJV: (cause to) commit fornication, X continually, X great, (be an, play the) harlot, (cause to be, play the) whore, (commit, fall to) whoredom, (cause to) go a-whoring, whorish.

zanah
i always understood it to mean prostitute or adulteress.

 

[Amberlight]

God expects us to obey Him to the best of our ability. If you were able to file with the laws of the land, but chose not to, you better have a good reason come judgement day. In the movie Braveheart, they married in secret so that the wife would not be raped by the king’s men. I consider that a good reason. But under normal circumstances, we are to obey the laws of the land in which we live- unless those laws go against God’s laws.

So what is God’s law concerning this? Does having sex mean marriage? No, that means fornication. When Jesus spoke to the woman at the well, He said that she had had five husbands, and that the one she is with now is not her husband. Therefore just having sex does not make you married.

Again ..

Only God joins man and woman

No man no government no official no paper no agreement no law of man has anything to do with holy union given my God.

If there is a law on the land that says you need permission to marry or you need register to marry do it.
It is about accepting earthly authority.

If this authority prevents you from marrying it is irrelevant.