Lets talk about Paul

Rainrider · Oct 29, 2017

Though I say thank you for the complement. At the same time I must turn that to HaShem. You see I follow where I feel He leads me. I never act on my own. This is way many times I do my best to remove my self from some teaching. This isn't to say I can't teach, as I do so in more than one class. However, even a class that is held face to face, it is not my class, HaShem placed me their, and it is His class. Any new insight one may find, I feel they need to thank Him and not me.
Once more I thank you for the kind words. They do give encouragement, and let me know that HaShem's work is being done.

comingfrom · Oct 29, 2017

Rainrider said:

Though I say thank you for the complement. At the same time I must turn that to HaShem. You see I follow where I feel He leads me. I never act on my own. This is way many times I do my best to remove my self from some teaching. This isn't to say I can't teach, as I do so in more than one class. However, even a class that is held face to face, it is not my class, HaShem placed me their, and it is His class. Any new insight one may find, I feel they need to thank Him and not me.
Once more I thank you for the kind words. They do give encouragement, and let me know that HaShem's work is being done.

Absolutely, rainrider.

All glory to Jesus.

I was just happy to find you here.

Paul

Rainrider · Oct 30, 2017

1 Cor chapter 10
1 I don’t want you to forget, dear brothers and sisters, about our ancestors in the wilderness long ago. All of them were guided by a cloud that moved ahead of them, and all of them walked through the sea on dry ground.
2 In the cloud and in the sea, all of them were baptized as followers of Moses.
3 All of them ate the same spiritual food,
4 and all of them drank the same spiritual water. For they drank from the spiritual rock that traveled with them, and that rock was Christ.

There some that see the idea of a rock walking along with Israel as more of a idea than a reality. To them I say, stop reading now, as what follows may upset your way of thinking. Not really. Just having some fun. Or am I???
Paul opens this chapter, that many see as being written to gentiles. Yet he doesn't want us to forget our ancestors that were in the wilderness. If they were all Israelite, then how as gentiles are they our ancestors? The answer is found in Rom. 11. Just as that chapter spoke to us about spiritual matters this does as well. Though we read that they had manna, we are right to see it as bread, after we are told this. Yet do we miss the fact that in both Deut. 8:3, and Mat. 4:4, that man doesn't live by bread alone, rather by every word that comes from the mouth of the Lord. This points to the manna as being 2 kinds of bread. The kind that fills the belly, and the kind that leads to life, or scripture if you will. The water is much the same way, tells us of 2 kinds of water. The one that quenches our physical thrust, and the one that quenches our spiritual thrust for understanding. Israel had been given Torah by this time, and by it's teachings day after day, their spirits should be made strong. Yeshua being the Word, John chapter 1, tells us that both depict Him.

5 Yet God was not pleased with most of them, and their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
6 These things happened as a warning to us, so that we would not crave evil things as they did,
7 or worship idols as some of them did. As the Scriptures say, “The people celebrated with feasting and drinking, and they indulged in pagan revelry.”

Even with the Laws being read and explained daily, Israel still didn't have the faith they should have. Some it seems never gave up their pagan ways. Though this is passed off as the gentiles that were with them, it is hard to see it in this manner. After all, the gentiles that left Egypt, were ether taken in as Jews, or had left the Jewish people at some point. As they are never spoken of other to say they left Egypt.

8 And we must not engage in sexual immorality as some of them did, causing 23,000 of them to die in one day.
9 Nor should we put Christ to the test, as some of them did and then died from snakebites.
10 And don’t grumble as some of them did, and then were destroyed by the angel of death.
11 These things happened to them as examples for us. They were written down to warn us who live at the end of the age.

The end of the age, has been said to mean the end of the time of the gentile. It has also been said to mean the end of the this age, and the beginning of the Messianic age. The meaning of the second points to the 1000 years that Yeshua will come back and rain on this earth as King of Kings.

12 If you think you are standing strong, be careful not to fall.
13 The temptations in your life are no different from what others experience. And God is faithful. He will not allow the temptation to be more than you can stand. When you are tempted, he will show you a way out so that you can endure.
14 So, my dear friends, flee from the worship of idols.
15 You are reasonable people. Decide for yourselves if what I am saying is true.
16 When we bless the cup at the Lord’s Table, aren’t we sharing in the blood of Christ? And when we break the bread, aren’t we sharing in the body of Christ?
17 And though we are many, we all eat from one loaf of bread, showing that we are one body.
18 Think about the people of Israel. Weren’t they united by eating the sacrifices at the altar?
19 What am I trying to say? Am I saying that food offered to idols has some significance, or that idols are real gods?
20 No, not at all. I am saying that these sacrifices are offered to demons, not to God. And I don’t want you to participate with demons.
21 You cannot drink from the cup of the Lord and from the cup of demons, too. You cannot eat at the Lord’s Table and at the table of demons, too.
22 What? Do we dare to rouse the Lord’s jealousy? Do you think we are stronger than he is?
23 You say, “I am allowed to do anything” —but not everything is good for you. You say, “I am allowed to do anything”—but not everything is beneficial.

Some teach that Matt. 18:18 is what Paul is speaking of here. Though Matt. 18:18 tells us that what we let loss on earth will also be let loss in Heaven, this does not speak of sinful acts. Though it has been used in this manner by some that wish to teach that with the Law being removed, homosexuality is now permitted. Along with idolatry so long as it done in the manner prescribed by the church. Yet Paul tells us, (in my words) just because you can do a thing, doesn't mean you should.
One other teaching on this, points out that Paul, being concerned for how the actions of others can effect the way someone sees the body of Yeshua, we should be mindful of that fact.

24 Don’t be concerned for your own good but for the good of others.
25 So you may eat any meat that is sold in the marketplace without raising questions of conscience.
26 For “the earth is the LORD ’s, and everything in it.”
27 If someone who isn’t a believer asks you home for dinner, accept the invitation if you want to. Eat whatever is offered to you without raising questions of conscience.
28 (But suppose someone tells you, “This meat was offered to an idol.” Don’t eat it, out of consideration for the conscience of the one who told you.

There is one teaching on this may seem right the minds of some. It is as follows, Even if you know the meat has been offered to ideas, it's ok to eat it. After all, if we say grace over it, then it becomes clean, and is permitted to eat. Yet one other that may ring more true to others is as follows, To eat this food in when others may find that by doing so, you give your honor to the god it was offered to. Though the last is one I am sure will not go over well with most, teachs us that to knowingly eat any food offered to idols, is sin. As the Torah tells us, we are not do this.

29 It might not be a matter of conscience for you, but it is for the other person.) For why should my freedom be limited by what someone else thinks?
30 If I can thank God for the food and enjoy it, why should I be condemned for eating it?
31 So whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God.
32 Don’t give offense to Jews or Gentiles or the church of God.
33 I, too, try to please everyone in everything I do. I don’t just do what is best for me; I do what is best for others so that many may be saved.

Some say that once a Jew comes to Yeshua they are longer Jewish. After all we are told that when we turn our lives over to Yeshua, we are no longer that old person. We are all one body, True, one people, not so true, and live by the same Word, also not so true.
If we all lived by the same Word, then we all follow the same teachings, and their would be reason to debate if the Law was valid or not. There no debate over anything the Word tells us at all. Yet from one church to the next, you may be told a different doctrine.
The idea that we are longer the same person is true, though it doesn't speak to our nationality, it speaks to our turning away from our sinful nature. If we were all to become one people, and even our nationality changed, then what John wrote about the Temple in Rev. 11:2 would be wrong. Why leave out the outer court, when it belongs to a people that no longer exist?

Rainrider · Oct 31, 2017

After finding such a big departure from other translations in the NLT, I am going to use only the NKJ from here out. I am sorry for the change, however, I can't see any reason to use a translation that seems removed from others. Don't get me wrong, the same teachings are there, and the context seems the same. Yet at the same time, we know that all translations are not equal.

Rainrider · Oct 31, 2017

1Co 11:1 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.

1Co 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you.

Though some teach that Paul is speaking of a new way to salvation, and teaching that dismiss the need to follow the law. Or as one commentator puts it, "This language generally refers to authoritative tradition of christian teaching being passed down orally."
On the other hand, we find a teaching that disputes this. It tells us, "To use this passage to dismiss the old testament, and the law, over looks that teachings of Paul that the law is valid. As can be seen most of his writings. As Paul uses the old testament in his writings, it hardly true that he sees it as out dated, or done away with."
1Co 11:3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
1Co 11:4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head.
1Co 11:5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved.
1Co 11:6 For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered.

This tells us that men dishonor Yeshua if we cover our head. The women dishonors her husband by not covering her head. It does seem strange when put in that manner. Yet when seen in the light of Yeshua being being the head of man, and man the head of women, it falls into place a bit better.
1Co 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man.
1Co 11:8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man.
1Co 11:9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man.
1Co 11:10 For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.

One teaching tells us that Angles are the guardians of the created order. Appointed to ensure that every thing is done according to HaShem's plan. We are to do what right in the sight of in the sight of fellow man, and HaShem's observing angles. There is however one teaching that tells us, a single women doesn't need to cove their head, as they are not under the authority of any man. Then if one wished they could turn to other teachers that say, an unmarried women would still be under the authority of her dad. So she is still obligated to cover her head. As if seeing this coming Paul goes no to say,
1Co 11:11 Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord.

1Co 11:12 For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God.

Though Paul qualifies the above with the last 2 given, it seems to some, that he also answered the question of a signal women needing to cover her head. In that women is not independent of man, or man of women. You see this passage has been use to teach that no matter what, a women must answer to a man. Even if they remain single, and their dad has passed away. In the case given, then the women must answer to the next of ken. This however has no basses in true Biblical teaching that I have ever found.
To find the answer Paul tells us,
1Co 11:13 Judge among yourselves. Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered?

1Co 11:14 Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him?
1Co 11:15 But if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given to her for a covering.

1Co 11:16 But if anyone seems to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor do the churches of God.

Some have see this Paul's unwillingness to back his own teachings. However as was pointed out before, this telling us that we must do is right in our own hearts. Still their is the question that this may be a cultural thing, and doesn't apply to us.
1Co 11:17 Now in giving these instructions I do not praise you, since you come together not for the better but for the worse.
1Co 11:18 For first of all, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it.

1Co 11:19 For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you.
1Co 11:20 Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord’s Supper.
1Co 11:21 For in eating, each one takes his own supper ahead of others; and one is hungry and another is drunk.
1Co 11:22 What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you in this? I do not praise you.

With out going to the full debate over what the Lords supper is said to be, it is still clear that this was not done to bring glory to HaShem. One should remain mindful of the needs of others. If you see a person that is clearly hungry, and more in need of a meal than you, that person should always go first. Some people make it a habit to always be the last to fill their plate. Even asked to be the first.
1Co 11:23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread;
1Co 11:24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”
1Co 11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”
1Co 11:26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes.

Some will argue that to proclaim Yeshua death as the end, is wrong. I stand in their corner. Yet to do a thing that brings to mind the actions of Yeshua, is almost never wrong. ( We will cover that in a second) To say His death did nothing for us, over looks the fact that with out Him giving His life, and spilling His blood, there would be no confirmation, no sacrifice, and no new covenant. True if He hadn't been raised from that death, their would be no victory over death, and the hope of a new life for us would have been lost.
1Co 11:27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
1Co 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
1Co 11:29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.

To take part in an action that we see as honoring Yeshua, with sin hanging over us, is wrong. We should take the time to look at our lives, and confess all sin that we find. Confession of sin averts judgment. Though many teach that to discern the Lords body is understand what the stripe do for us, what His blood did, and what His death truly meant for man kind. Others say that this passage points to an uncaring heart, that has never excepted Yeshua. They simply are doing what they think others expect them to do.
1Co 11:30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep.
1Co 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged.
1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.
1Co 11:33 Therefore, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another.

1Co 11:34 But if anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, lest you come together for judgment. And the rest I will set in order when I come.

When we find that we being corrected by HaShem, we should never try to pas it off as anything other than what it is. Keep in mind that all sickness is due to sin. Just as not all bad things are due to ones sin. There are times in life when something happens, and it was nothing more than bad timing, or judgment on our part. Kind of wrong place wrong time, kind of thing. To use myself as an example, when I feel off a truck, and broke my back, it was not sin that brought this about. It was being stupid. Evey one knows that a round tanker, with soap on it is slippery. So to walk on it is more or less stupid. Well ok, it's on the more side not the less. Yet when it was let known to me, that a valve on top was leaking, and need to be fixed, I set everything aside, and went about replacing said valve, so that the driver would be with in the confines of the law. You see, even doing the right thing can lead to danger. If one doesn't use cation, and a little forethought.
Ok you can laugh now, I know i did my share of it once the pain was gone.

Rainrider · Nov 2, 2017

1 Cor chapter 12
1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant:
2 You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led.
3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:
8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit,
9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit,
10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.

Paul is refereeing to Mark 16:17-18 in the above. I am sure we have all heard about the church that plays with deadly snakes, and so on. Well Mark is where they got that idea from. Though Paul after being bitten by a viper in Acts 28. He removed it from his hand thought nothing more of it. Everyone around knew Paul was going to kill over, yet do to Pauls faith, and the word HaShem had for him to do, he didn't even get sick. Yet there some that teach if you don't hold every gift you are not saved. This however is not true. A person never be loaned even one gift, and still be saved.

11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.
12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

For us as humans to say a person has removed any chance of Yeshua being our salvation, do to following Torah, not being loaned a gift, or not going to this church or that, shows our lack of understanding. Paul makes clear hear that no matter what, if one turns to Yeshua, they are saved. After all, if we are all one body, then we all have with in us the same spirit.
Also the way Paul is writing, one may think that the letter is to correct the thinking that one gift is better than the others.

14 For in fact the body is not one member but many.
15 If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body," is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body," is it therefore not of the body?
17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling?
18 But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased.
19 And if they were all one member, where would the body be?
20 But now indeed there are many members, yet one body.
21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you"; nor again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you."
22 No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary.
23 And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty,

The body, like the church, has many parts. If we all were teachers, then who would we teach? If we all spoke in tongues there would be no one to interpret. Even the people that do nothing more than clean, or do repairs to the church, are every bit as important as the teaches, pastures, bus drivers, and the people that sing.

24 but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it,
25 that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another.
26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.
28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles?
30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?
31 But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.

As one reads the NT they find many aspects of the work that the Spirit does. John points to the Spirit as a teacher, and reveler of HaShem's thoughts. Luke focused on power and guidance. Paul gives a comprehensive look at the Spirit's work. The Spirit bring news life, and affirms salvation. Gives us power to over come sin, to live a fruitful life, He lets us understand HaShem, His ways, and His thoughts. The goal of the Spirit is to help us be more like Yeshua. Filling our hearts with forgiveness, and love. Oh how long this list could get. There will more on the Spirit and the great things HaShem has Him do for us, and in us as we work our way through Pauls writings.

Rainrider · Nov 3, 2017

1Cor. 13 what has been for so longed the love chapter, and for good reason. Rather than interrupt the reading of a chapter that for the most part is self explaining, I will just do a full commentary at the end.

1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.
4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;
5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;
6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;
7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Though some teach that tongues is an unknown language Paul makes it clear this not the case. It does seem that we are being told the Word speak to both the language of men and angles. Please see, Acts 2:4-13 for more on this.
As read on, we find that no matte what we give, or do, if done without love, it is much the same as not doing anything. Yet as we read on, we find a description of what love is. Some over look the fact that this love as described, is the love of Yeshua. In that it describes the willingness of a person to set aside their own desire for the good of others.
This may look like something you have read before, yet it seems right to post it once more.
Lets say you and a co-worker are up for the same promotion. Your kids are done with school, and have good jobs, your debt free. Your co-worker, is over his head in debt. The raise that comes with it would get him above water. Do you pass it up, so that he gets it, or push hard to get it, and let your co-worker deal with things the best he can? To find the right thing to do, ask yourself, WWJD?
The gifts we are loaned by the Spirit will all come to an end at some point. They don't give us full understanding, as they are limited in their benefits. Yeshua on the other hand, is not bound by any thing. When we stand before Him, we will see, and understand every word that has been given. It is out of His Love, that ma kind will understand our short comings, and see the things we over looked or misunderstood in this life. Yes even the people that will not enter Eternal Life will see it all clearly. You see His love wishes every person to see, and understand the judgment that is handed down to them.

Romans614 · Nov 3, 2017

Rainrider said:

First I wish to make clear that I am done with qualifying ever thing I say. You will just have to live wit it. Just as I know I am a long way from perfect, I also know that everyone on this earth is as well. I also wish to make it clear that HaShem seen some reason to create me being Dyslexic, and trust me, all your judgmental remarks, to me have all been seen in the past.

Chapter 7
1 Surely you know, brothers - for I am speaking to those who understand Torah - that the Torah has authority over a person only so long as he lives?

2 For example, a married woman is bound by Torah to her husband while he is alive; but if the husband dies, she is released from the part of the Torah that deals with husbands.
3 Therefore, while the husband is alive, she will be called an adulteress if she marries another man; but if the husband dies, she is free from that part of the Torah; so that if she marries another man, she is not an adulteress.
4 Thus, my brothers, you have been made dead with regard to the Torah through the Messiah's body, so that you may belong to someone else, namely, the one who has been raised from the dead, in order for us to bear fruit for God.

As we can see Paul is equating a physical death to a spiritual death. When one gives themselves over to HaShem, and truly repents, that old spirit of sin dies, and a new spirit of trusting faithfulness is placed in their hearts. This removes the penitly for sin, at lest for sins that we had committed before that point. For us to then take on the idea that we can never sin again, is only fulling ourselves. The Holy Spirit will work with us to keep us on the right track, and lead us away from sin, yet when we don't follow his lead, we find our selves with the felling of guilt. This is the Holy Spirit working to inform us we did wrong.
5 For when we were living according to our old nature, the passions connected with sins worked through the Torah in our various parts, with the result that we bore fruit for death.
6 But now we have been released from this aspect of the Torah, because we have died to that which had us in its clutches, so that we are serving in the new way provided by the Spirit and not in the old way of outwardly following the letter of the law.

Many today still the Torah in this manner, that it was a physical law. Sadly this is the way it had been seen in the eyes of many through out time. As one Rabbi said, it was the mistake of working to follow the letter of the Law, that has lead to Israel being removed from the land for 2000 years. My friend seen that it was the letter of the law that lead Israel into sin, and away from the truth. Just as Paul now tells us much the same thing.
7 Therefore, what are we to say? That the Torah is sinful? Heaven forbid! Rather, the function of the Torah was that without it, I would not have known what sin is. For example, I would not have become conscious of what greed is if the Torah had not said, "Thou shalt not covet."

8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, worked in me all kinds of evil desires - for apart from Torah, sin is dead.
9 I was once alive outside the framework of Torah. But when the commandment really encountered me, sin sprang to life,
To the debarment of truth, many don't look at this verse at all. If they do, they wish to find some way to remove it. As they teach the Torah is sin, and brings sin to the life any that turn to it as a guide. You see with out this verse, one can take the rest, and teach that the Torah makes us sinful. That was not Pauls intent at all, as he made clear here. There is one other teaching on this. In it we find that once we become aware that something is wrong, it becomes sin. Until that time, we may do it, yet if we don't know that is wrong by the Laws of HaShem, then that sin is not counted. As both seem to fit, it is up to the reader to say what they like best.

10 and I died. The commandment that was intended to bring me life was found to be bringing me death!
11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me; and through the commandment, sin killed me.
12 So the Torah is holy; that is, the commandment is holy, just and good.
13 Then did something good become for me the source of death? Heaven forbid! Rather, it was sin working death in me through something good, so that sin might be clearly exposed as sin, so that sin through the commandment might come to be experienced as sinful beyond measure.

Paul seems to follow the teaching of Rabbi Tanchuma, who said. The Voice of Adoni, went out from Sinai in 2 ways. In one it killed the heathen that would not accept it; yet it also gave life to to Israel who accepted the Torah.
If the Torah was evil then why would Paul say it was Holy, just and good? It can not be both, and when seen in the light of it being our guide, teacher, and mark to aim for, it is good. If we see it as evil, then that is on us. To make a claim that HaShem place evil over man to rule and force sin up on us,, As one teaching dose claim) turns our hearts away from the truth of HaShem.
14 For we know that the Torah is of the Spirit; but as for me, I am bound to the old nature, sold to sin as a slave.
15 I don't understand my own behavior - I don't do what I want to do; instead, I do the very thing I hate!
16 Now if I am doing what I don't want to do, I am agreeing that the Torah is good.

A Baptist Pastor friend, who loves to play with words, once said that if Paul wasn't making a play on words here, then it would only show that Paul has lost him mind. You see here Paul tells us one thing, then turns around and it seems he is telling us that the only reason he said it was that he didn't really want to, so that left him no choice, he had to.
Keep in mind I did say this friend liked to play with words. This same man will then turn around and say," Paul being a man, and knowing that he was a slave to sin, just as we all are, know the Torah was good, as it came from HaShem. It is thhe knowing that an action is wrong, that one confirms that the Torah is good. Just as Paul tells us here.
17 But now it is no longer "the real me" doing it, but the sin housed inside me.
18 For I know that there is nothing good housed inside me - that is, inside my old nature. I can want what is good, but I can't do it!
19 For I don't do the good I want; instead, the evil that I don't want is what I do!
20 But if I am doing what "the real me" doesn't want, it is no longer "the real me" doing it but the sin housed inside me.
21 So I find it to be the rule, a kind of perverse "torah," that although I want to do what is good, evil is right there with me!
22 For in my inner self I completely agree with God's Torah;

Paul may have seen that his words were a bit troubling, for some to understand. This may well be why he trys to work it through once more. Only now He is telling us that his inner self agrees with the Torah 100%. Don't take my word for it, just read it for yourself.
23 but in my various parts, I see a different "torah," one that battles with the Torah in my mind and makes me a prisoner of sin's "torah," which is operating in my various parts.
24 What a miserable creature I am! Who will rescue me from this body bound for death?
25 Thanks be to God [, he will]! - through Yeshua the Messiah, our Lord! To sum up: with my mind, I am a slave of God's Torah; but with my old nature, I am a slave of sin's "Torah."

Pauls closing here, seems to sum up the whole chapter. The battle we all fight with in our selves, is one of a spiritual nature. One that we are selves will loss. We should all be thankfull, and sing prase to HaShem for his Loving nature, and for Yeshua, who gave His life that we may have faith in His loving trustfulness, to forgive our sins.

Possibly the most illuminating chapter Paul wrote(imho)

verses1-3 Paul sets out the principal of dying to the law(of righteousness)
verses4-6 Paul stresses the need to die to the law
Verses7-11 A personal illustration from Pauls life(as a Pharisee) as to why he had to die to the law
verses12&13 Affirmation the law itself is holy, just and good, and it was sin, not the law that brought condemnation to him.
Verses 14-24 Paul speaking of his struggles and faliures as a Pharisee to obey the law.

Its much easier to understand Paul if we keep in mind two verses in particular:

The power of sin is the law 1Cor15:56)
For sin shall no longer be your master for you are not under law but under grace Rom6:14

It makes no sense to the rational mind of man to believe that if you die to righteousness/justification of observing the law, sin shall not then be your master. But it made great sense to Paul

comingfrom · Nov 3, 2017

Rainrider is making more sense to me.

He said it well, right about here.

Die to righteousness?

You contradict yourself painfully here
to end up with an excuse to not keep that which is holy, just and good.

Bless God
Keep His commandments
Paul

Romans614 · Nov 3, 2017

comingfrom said:

Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness for everyone who believeth Rom 10:4

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law, rather through the law we become conscious of sin
Rom 3:20

Is paul contradicting himself?

In regards to rom 7:7-11
Why, when the law came to Paul did he then find himself consumed by all manner of concupiscence?

Romans614 · Nov 3, 2017

So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For when we were in the realm of the flesh,[SUP][a][/SUP] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. [SUP]6 [/SUP]But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
Rom 7:4-6

What does Paul mean by 'dying to the law' ? Does he mean what is written in the law no longer exists, Christians can ignore it?
Or, does Paul mean the believer dies to a righteousness of observing the law(as he continually states over and over again)

In the next five verses Paul gives a personal example from his own life as to why he had to die to a law of righteousness. Note the example he gave

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.[SUP]8 [/SUP]But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived(or sin consciousness sprang to life), and I died.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And the commandment, which was ordained to life(if I obeyed it), I found to be unto death(for I could not keep it).
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
7-11

The example Paul gave as to why he had to die to the law was: Thou shalt not covet, one of the Ten Commandments

Rainrider · Nov 4, 2017

Romans614 said:

I am willing to reply to this, however, keep in mind This thread is not meant to debate the validity of the law. Just so you, if this looks like it is going down that road, I will make it known that I am seeing this, and unless you can show I am wrong, I will not answer any other questions. Let me say now, I am sorry if I seem a bit uneasy about the question, there is how ever good reason for that. If you have read this whole post, you will understand what I mean.

When Paul speaks of being dead to the Law, it is not Torah he speaks of, rather rabbinic law. You see, no matter how we wish to say we see this, ever single person on earth that is a true believer, follows the Torah in some way. The Holy Spirit guides in the way we are to live. If a thing is wrong, and HaShem said "don't do that" then the Spirit leads us away from that thing.
To try and help clarify, Rabbinic Law isn't Torah, it was however mans idea of it. In their attempt to build on the laws of Torah, so that Israel would not be removed from their land again, it became so distorted that one would have a hard time seeing any Spiritual meaning be hind it.
As to the Torah, it has always been about mans spiritual walk. If we become dead to that, then we surely can't say we are saved by any sense of the word. Paul was trying to put this thought out there when he pointed out that if not for Torah he would not have known sin. This is also why he took he time to say,
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” Emphases mine.

In this we find that the law is our teacher, not that it forces us to sin. You see, by teaching us right and wrong, the Torah is showing us how to live our lives. The Law is not sin, i that it brings sin to us. Sin when we transgress the Law. As always I am sure I may have left something unanswered, so please if that is the case let me know.

comingfrom · Nov 4, 2017

Hello Romans614.

Thank you, and call me Leviticus184 if you like.
Or Romans105. Same thing.

Romans614 said:

I could tangle with your questions, but I won't,
because you don't know even the law.

Having escaped from under it from so long, you don't have a clue what it says.
You only know you are dead to it.

Romans 7:1 There is a small aside in brackets.
"[FONT=&quot](for I speak to them that know the law,)[/FONT]"

Paul has just dropped that in to let us know,
if we don't know the law, we probably won't understand what he is talking about.
But many people are convinced it is telling them to not do God's law.
So they don't come to the law to know it.
And after not having come to it, then try to convince others to not do it.
That is not right.

St Paul wasn't even speaking to you.

St Paul has helped me to understand several commandments in the law,
even Leviticus,
but only because I was in the law asking questions.

Here is a good homework for you.
See how many of St Paul's sayings you can find in Leviticus and Deuteronomy.

Bless God
Keep His commandments
Paul

Rainrider · Nov 4, 2017

comingfrom said:

Hello Romans614.

Thank you, and call me Leviticus184 if you like.
Or Romans105. Same thing.

I could tangle with your questions, but I won't,
because you don't know even the law.

Having escaped from under it from so long, you don't have a clue what it says.
You only know you are dead to it.

Romans 7:1 There is a small aside in brackets.
"(for I speak to them that know the law,)"

Paul has just dropped that in to let us know,
if we don't know the law, we probably won't understand what he is talking about.
But many people are convinced it is telling them to not do God's law.
So they don't come to the law to know it.
And after not having come to it, then try to convince others to not do it.
That is not right.

St Paul wasn't even speaking to you.

St Paul has helped me to understand several commandments in the law,
even Leviticus,
but only because I was in the law asking questions.

Here is a good homework for you.
See how many of St Paul's sayings you can find in Leviticus and Deuteronomy.

Bless God
Keep His commandments
Paul

You don't play far my friend. LOL I just say I am going to give a test, then you come along and hand out homework. Though that is a good assignment. Lets just pray he has a good Bible with good cross reference.

Romans614 · Nov 4, 2017

Rainrider said:

I am willing to reply to this, however, keep in mind This thread is not meant to debate the validity of the law. Just so you, if this looks like it is going down that road, I will make it known that I am seeing this, and unless you can show I am wrong, I will not answer any other questions. Let me say now, I am sorry if I seem a bit uneasy about the question, there is how ever good reason for that. If you have read this whole post, you will understand what I mean.

When Paul speaks of being dead to the Law, it is not Torah he speaks of, rather rabbinic law. You see, no matter how we wish to say we see this, ever single person on earth that is a true believer, follows the Torah in some way. The Holy Spirit guides in the way we are to live. If a thing is wrong, and HaShem said "don't do that" then the Spirit leads us away from that thing.
To try and help clarify, Rabbinic Law isn't Torah, it was however mans idea of it. In their attempt to build on the laws of Torah, so that Israel would not be removed from their land again, it became so distorted that one would have a hard time seeing any Spiritual meaning be hind it.
As to the Torah, it has always been about mans spiritual walk. If we become dead to that, then we surely can't say we are saved by any sense of the word. Paul was trying to put this thought out there when he pointed out that if not for Torah he would not have known sin. This is also why he took he time to say,
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” Emphases mine.

In this we find that the law is our teacher, not that it forces us to sin. You see, by teaching us right and wrong, the Torah is showing us how to live our lives. The Law is not sin, i that it brings sin to us. Sin when we transgress the Law. As always I am sure I may have left something unanswered, so please if that is the case let me know.

When Paul speaks of being dead to the law, he means being dead to a righteousness of observing the law. As he continuously states in his letters. The Christian has no justification/righteousness of observing the law. That is his core message after all

Romans614 · Nov 4, 2017

comingfrom said:

I have to say, in all honesty, you have no true understanding of Pauls core message. Neither it seems does the op. Nor do you understand the core foundation upon which the NC stands.

You cannot 3escape the law God desires you to follow for it is written in your mind and placed on your heart. That is one of the two core components upon which the New Covenant stands. And what is in your mind you in your mind must surely know. And the law in your heart must bring heartfelt conviction of sin when you wilfully transgress it.

As to following all of Torah. The Jerusalem church met to discuss which Jewish laws gentile converts be asked to follow(Acts ch15) Four were mentioned, three it is widely believed were given to appease Jewish legalists who had become Christians. If your views are correct, the Jerusalem church assuredly gave gentile converts a licence to sin..
No wonder neither of you wish to address the scripture placed before you.

comingfrom · Nov 4, 2017

Rainrider said:

We have got to do our homework before the test. Yes? lol

Let's pray he has a good heart.
Paul

O that there were such an heart in them,
that they would fear Me, and keep all My commandments always,
that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
Deuteronomy 5:29

Romans614 · Nov 4, 2017

Rainrider said:

Many come on the internet, believing they understand much and are here to teach others what they think they know. Tell me:

Why are sinfull passions aroused in people by the law if they live under it? You haven't got a clue have you:

For when we were controlled by the sinfull nature, the sinfull passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies bringing forth fruit for death
Rom 7:5

Romans614 · Nov 4, 2017

Some people need a righteousness of observing the law to be in place to encourage them to want to live as God desires them too. The born again Christian does not need such a righteousness in place. For they love God and the law he desires them to follow is written in their minds and placed on their hearts by God himself. What is in your mind you in your mind must obviously know, and the law in your heart must mean you in your heart want to follow it. Such people do not need a righteousness of observing the law.
Those who want to cling to righteousness of observing the law don't obey the law themselves. They may obey outwardly/clean the outside of the cup but they cannot obey the law on the inside.
Those who understand Pauls message know, if you cling to righteousness of observing the law, sin shall be your master and you shall be sins slave.
Victory over sin, according to Paul is dying to a righteousness of observing the law. However, those led of their natural minds into truth will never understand Pauls message, only the Holy Spirit can turn on the light

comingfrom · Nov 4, 2017

Hi Romans614.

Why don't you speak to the one who is talking to you?

And I think you mean the question to me.

I didn't get on top of the law by not turning to it
with my faith in Jesus that it is the right thing to do God's commandments.
I didn't need any other reason than that the law is His commandments.

My sinful passions were before I came to Jesus,
aroused by the law of faith, which I lived by before coming to Christ,
and receiving the law.
The law showed me my sins.
I started to work on myself right away.

Now I am on top of the law.
Now I have a fairly good understanding.
I can say that. I'm not boasting.
After just one year of meditating on it daily, you would start to get on top of it too.
Wouldn't you.
Imagine someone who meditated on it daily for ten or twenty years.
That's what I'm aiming for.

Bless you. Bless God.
Paul

But his delight is in the law of the LORD;
and in His law doth he meditate day and night.
And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water,
that brings forth his fruit in his season;
his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he does shall prosper.
Psalm 1:2-3

Lets talk about Paul

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