“Born of water...” -- exactly what does it mean?
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Of course. But those Scriptures were pointing to the New Covenant, and without the finished work of Christ, they could not be fulfilled, and the Holy Spirit could not be poured down from Heaven.
As someone has said the Old Testament is the New Testament enfolded, while the New Testament is the Old Testament unfolded. And that is why we need the complete Bible.
As someone has said the Old Testament is the New Testament enfolded, while the New Testament is the Old Testament unfolded. And that is why we need the complete Bible.
Thanks OneFaith for your discussion. Perhaps what you mean when you say "baptism saves" is the verse: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." The word baptize, according to Strong's Concordance, means 'to wash'. To be washed free of sin is the meaning in this case. Obviously, physical water could not really wash away sin. But Jesus' word that we are forgiven can. That is why Jesus said to his own: "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you." If we look again at the phrase "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" we can see that this means he that believes and is washed free of sin (forgiven) shall be saved. Many persons dunk themselves in physical water but I do not see this as being a thing relating to salvation. If you look at the verses in Acts chapter 8 that you mention, which speak of 'a certain water' we find that Phillip has just been sharing the good word of God about how Jesus died for the sins of his own. I think that is the water being pointed to. Isaiah relates: "Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price." The thirst that is being spoken of is those who are thirsty, so to speak, for salvation. The water that they drink is the gospel to get it.
When we are forgiven (washed free of sin) we are baptized into Jesus' death because he died for our sins.
When we are forgiven (washed free of sin) we are baptized into Jesus' death because he died for our sins.
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The main verse I was going by is 1 Peter 3:21. “Baptism saves.” The Bible says that the gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and that we must obey the gospel. Baptism is how we obey the gospel- we die to ourself, bury our sinful self in the watery grave of baptism (baptism is a death and burial) and are raised a new creature in Christ. Ramteso means to sprinkle, and bapteso means to fully immerse. “With flames of fire He will take vengeance on those who know not God, and who obey not the gospel of His Son.”
If it is as you say- that you are saved and then baptized after you are saved, that would mean that being baptized (obeying the gospel) does not save us, but 1 Peter 3:21 says water (H20) baptism does save us- not by removing dirt from the flesh, but by a clean conscience toward God.
The Living Water is Jesus Himself- Who is the Word of God, the Vine, The Lion of Judah, etc. He hath the words of life indeed. But it is Christ’s blood that washes away our sins, not His words. When Jesus was speared, blood and water flowed. He shed His blood in His death, we are then baptized into His death (Romans 6:3), and that is how we spiritually get into Christ, and spiritually come in contact with His blood.
During baptism (not during belief or reading God’s Word) is when God performs circumcision of the heart (Colossians 2), not by human hands (spiritually) by cutting away sin from our hearts with Christ’s blood- which is what Old Testament circumcision represented. There is nothing magical about the water we get baptized in- just as there is nothing magical about the bread without yeast and the fruit of the vine we take during the Lord’s Supper. But during both something real happens spiritually- we are baptized into Christ’s blood, and we stay in contact with Christ’s blood when we partake of the Lord’s Supper- just like you are physically born with blood, and your heartbeat continues to circulate that blood to keep you alive.
“I tell you the truth, unless you eat of the flesh of the Son of Man (spiritually), and drink His blood, you have no life in you.” All the belief in the world, and reading of scripture will not give you Christ’s life-saving blood- without which you are spiritually dead (not going to heaven, worshipping in vain). Like God said in 1 Peter 3:21, baptism does save because it puts us into Christ and into His life-saving blood.
If it is as you say- that you are saved and then baptized after you are saved, that would mean that being baptized (obeying the gospel) does not save us, but 1 Peter 3:21 says water (H20) baptism does save us- not by removing dirt from the flesh, but by a clean conscience toward God.
The Living Water is Jesus Himself- Who is the Word of God, the Vine, The Lion of Judah, etc. He hath the words of life indeed. But it is Christ’s blood that washes away our sins, not His words. When Jesus was speared, blood and water flowed. He shed His blood in His death, we are then baptized into His death (Romans 6:3), and that is how we spiritually get into Christ, and spiritually come in contact with His blood.
During baptism (not during belief or reading God’s Word) is when God performs circumcision of the heart (Colossians 2), not by human hands (spiritually) by cutting away sin from our hearts with Christ’s blood- which is what Old Testament circumcision represented. There is nothing magical about the water we get baptized in- just as there is nothing magical about the bread without yeast and the fruit of the vine we take during the Lord’s Supper. But during both something real happens spiritually- we are baptized into Christ’s blood, and we stay in contact with Christ’s blood when we partake of the Lord’s Supper- just like you are physically born with blood, and your heartbeat continues to circulate that blood to keep you alive.
“I tell you the truth, unless you eat of the flesh of the Son of Man (spiritually), and drink His blood, you have no life in you.” All the belief in the world, and reading of scripture will not give you Christ’s life-saving blood- without which you are spiritually dead (not going to heaven, worshipping in vain). Like God said in 1 Peter 3:21, baptism does save because it puts us into Christ and into His life-saving blood.
The question is, WHICH baptism saves?
Eph 4:
4) There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5) One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
1 Cor 12:
13) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Eph 1:
13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14) Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Acts 2:
17) And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18) And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
The baptism that saves is the baptism in the Holy Spirit, which was first "poured out" on the day of Pentecost.
Eph 4:
4) There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5) One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
1 Cor 12:
13) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Eph 1:
13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14) Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Acts 2:
17) And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18) And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
The baptism that saves is the baptism in the Holy Spirit, which was first "poured out" on the day of Pentecost.
I disagree. The basic premise is Ye must be born again. First comes physical birth represented by the amniotic fluid which is the water of (Physical) birth.
Baptism of the Spirit is the second birth and represents the Holy Spirit's indwelling of each believer.
Trying to dismiss physical birth from the intent of the verse ignores the basic premise "Ye must be born AGAIN.
Baptism of the Spirit is the second birth and represents the Holy Spirit's indwelling of each believer.
Trying to dismiss physical birth from the intent of the verse ignores the basic premise "Ye must be born AGAIN.
Actually it is the the who Lord dismissed all thoughts about physical and natural birth right at the start.
Nicodemus started off with a purely humanistic question, focusing on physical birth even though he should have known better:
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
The Lord immediately directed his thoughts away from the physical and focused totally on the spiritual:
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water [the Word, specifically the Gospel] and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Then He further reinforced the meaning by stating:
That which is born of the flesh [physical body] is flesh [physical body] [which is a given, since all human beings are physically born]
Once again He focused on the spiritual by stating:
and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
This would have taken Nicodemus presumably back to the OT Scriptures which had brought out this truth in connection with the New Covenant. Therefore:
Marvel not [don't be amazed] that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Nicodemus started off with a purely humanistic question, focusing on physical birth even though he should have known better:
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
The Lord immediately directed his thoughts away from the physical and focused totally on the spiritual:
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water [the Word, specifically the Gospel] and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Then He further reinforced the meaning by stating:
That which is born of the flesh [physical body] is flesh [physical body] [which is a given, since all human beings are physically born]
Once again He focused on the spiritual by stating:
and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
This would have taken Nicodemus presumably back to the OT Scriptures which had brought out this truth in connection with the New Covenant. Therefore:
Marvel not [don't be amazed] that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Amen the only thing I would add to your point is John 17:17 “Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.”
Ephesians 5:26-27 “that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word,27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.”
The word of God sanctifies and washes us so that Christ can present us with out spot or wringle, so that we will be holy and without blemish! The water of baptism cannot do that. When you have the word of truth the Gospel, we believe and the Spirit seals us, we are His forever.
Ephesians 1:13-14 “In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 5:26-27 “that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word,27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.”
The word of God sanctifies and washes us so that Christ can present us with out spot or wringle, so that we will be holy and without blemish! The water of baptism cannot do that. When you have the word of truth the Gospel, we believe and the Spirit seals us, we are His forever.
Ephesians 1:13-14 “In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.”
I don't believe 1 Peter 3:21 is saying what you're suggesting it does, lets look at it, here is 1 Peter 3:18-22
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us[e] to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine long-suffering waited[f] in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an anti-type which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.
He specifically says "there is also an ANTI-TYPE which saves us". Here is the definition of anti-type-
an·ti·type
ˈan(t)iˌtīp/Submit
noun
noun: anti-type
1.
a person or thing that represents the opposite of someone or something else.
2.
something that is represented by a symbol.
I would think that the 2nd definition would fit the context of this passage best. The fact that we do die to ourselves, the old man, the flesh, the slave of sin, whatever you call it dies at rebirth, and in and by the Spirit you are raised all new, a new man with new desires, new eyes, and new life. This was exactly what I experienced when I was reborn (born of Spirit), and this happened without a man physically dunking me under water. I was baptized in water way before this and wasn't saved, then I was saved without being physically dunked under water. I do not agree with what you're saying here that baptism saves, nothing we "do" saves us aside from believing (and I would say realizing that we can't do life without God and submitting, but I also think that "believing" is a much bigger word than we normally think of it as), baptism no more saves us than circumcision and you know what Paul says about that. I just disagree that the verse you're citing here means what you're saying it means. I just KNOW that I was saved and made new without having been dunked, even though I was baptized again after my true rebirth to publicly proclaim my salvation, but not to earn it. I'm not trying to just argue with you, or just "be right" and "teach", because I like and appreciate your civil tone, well thought and laid out view, and your very apparent love and passion for our Lord Jesus Christ, I just wanted to share why I can't agree with your point here, and share why & how I was saved without any kind of fleshly work. I hope you have a great day sister.
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us[e] to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine long-suffering waited[f] in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an anti-type which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.
He specifically says "there is also an ANTI-TYPE which saves us". Here is the definition of anti-type-
an·ti·type
ˈan(t)iˌtīp/Submit
noun
noun: anti-type
1.
a person or thing that represents the opposite of someone or something else.
2.
something that is represented by a symbol.
I would think that the 2nd definition would fit the context of this passage best. The fact that we do die to ourselves, the old man, the flesh, the slave of sin, whatever you call it dies at rebirth, and in and by the Spirit you are raised all new, a new man with new desires, new eyes, and new life. This was exactly what I experienced when I was reborn (born of Spirit), and this happened without a man physically dunking me under water. I was baptized in water way before this and wasn't saved, then I was saved without being physically dunked under water. I do not agree with what you're saying here that baptism saves, nothing we "do" saves us aside from believing (and I would say realizing that we can't do life without God and submitting, but I also think that "believing" is a much bigger word than we normally think of it as), baptism no more saves us than circumcision and you know what Paul says about that. I just disagree that the verse you're citing here means what you're saying it means. I just KNOW that I was saved and made new without having been dunked, even though I was baptized again after my true rebirth to publicly proclaim my salvation, but not to earn it. I'm not trying to just argue with you, or just "be right" and "teach", because I like and appreciate your civil tone, well thought and laid out view, and your very apparent love and passion for our Lord Jesus Christ, I just wanted to share why I can't agree with your point here, and share why & how I was saved without any kind of fleshly work. I hope you have a great day sister.
There is only one very serious problem with that interpretation. Jesus said "EXCEPT a man be born of water..." Since all human beings are born surrounded by the water of the womb, there is nothing exceptional about that at all. It is a given. But since the Gospel is indeed the "seed" of the New Birth (according to Scripture), Christ was speaking about supernatural and spiritual things. And the Bible calls the Word of God "water" metaphorically, since it convicts and convinces sinners, and then sanctifies them through instruction in righteousness.
It is only when the true Gospel is preached, that faith is generated in the soul, since faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. And it is only those who repent and believe the Gospel who are born again supernaturally.
It is only when the true Gospel is preached, that faith is generated in the soul, since faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. And it is only those who repent and believe the Gospel who are born again supernaturally.
Born of water- exactly what does it mean?
IMO when Jesus was speaking of the new birth, He was speaking of the one spiritual birth, which is a birth (coming forth) from two elements, physical water and the Holy Spirit. Is there any suggestion in the Scriptures that believers are to be immersed in both physical water and the Spirit?
Immersion in physical water-
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.[SUP]19 [/SUP]Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, [SUP]20 [/SUP]teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” (Matt. 28: 18- 20) Please note that this is for all nations and that disciples are made by baptizing in water and teaching them to observe all that was commanded.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. [SUP]16 [/SUP]He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. (Mark 16: 15, 16) Again, please note that this is to all the world, to all creation, preach the gospel (the death for sin, burial and resurrection of our Lord) and notice that baptism precedes salvation.
Immersion in the Holy Spirit-
And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ (Acts 11: 16)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. (1Cor. 12: 13)
When we come to faith, repent and are baptized in physical water for the forgiveness of sin, the gift of the Holy Spirit is poured out upon us richly and abundantly, immersing us in the Spirit. (Acts 2: 37-39; Titus 3: 5)
As we come forth from this baptismal experience (there is one baptism, but two elements, physical water and the Spirit) we are born again, born of water and the Spirit. We need both elements because when we are baptized in physical water into Christ, we are baptized into His death. We must die with Him and be buried with Him in baptism so that we can arise with Him in the newness of life. (Rom. 6: 3) We must be immersed in the Spirit because the Spirit gives life (2 Cor. 3: 6) and a new heart and mind. For if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him. (2 Tim. 2: 11)
God bless!
IMO when Jesus was speaking of the new birth, He was speaking of the one spiritual birth, which is a birth (coming forth) from two elements, physical water and the Holy Spirit. Is there any suggestion in the Scriptures that believers are to be immersed in both physical water and the Spirit?
Immersion in physical water-
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.[SUP]19 [/SUP]Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, [SUP]20 [/SUP]teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” (Matt. 28: 18- 20) Please note that this is for all nations and that disciples are made by baptizing in water and teaching them to observe all that was commanded.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. [SUP]16 [/SUP]He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. (Mark 16: 15, 16) Again, please note that this is to all the world, to all creation, preach the gospel (the death for sin, burial and resurrection of our Lord) and notice that baptism precedes salvation.
Immersion in the Holy Spirit-
And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ (Acts 11: 16)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. (1Cor. 12: 13)
When we come to faith, repent and are baptized in physical water for the forgiveness of sin, the gift of the Holy Spirit is poured out upon us richly and abundantly, immersing us in the Spirit. (Acts 2: 37-39; Titus 3: 5)
As we come forth from this baptismal experience (there is one baptism, but two elements, physical water and the Spirit) we are born again, born of water and the Spirit. We need both elements because when we are baptized in physical water into Christ, we are baptized into His death. We must die with Him and be buried with Him in baptism so that we can arise with Him in the newness of life. (Rom. 6: 3) We must be immersed in the Spirit because the Spirit gives life (2 Cor. 3: 6) and a new heart and mind. For if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him. (2 Tim. 2: 11)
God bless!
You may have a valid point, as the bible also states that He who believes in Christ, from Him shall flow rivers of living water (John 7:38), which I also recognize as being spiritual waters.
There is, however, a problem with the water one is born from being spiritual. As the 2nd requirement to enter heaven is to be born of the Spirit (John 3:5), I then don't see how being born of spiritual waters and being born of the spirit represent two different things.
John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
There is, however, a problem with the water one is born from being spiritual. As the 2nd requirement to enter heaven is to be born of the Spirit (John 3:5), I then don't see how being born of spiritual waters and being born of the spirit represent two different things.
John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
So what we need is to back up and ask a few questions:
Is the New Birth supernatural and spiritual? Yes
Who is the One who creates "a new creature is Christ"? The Holy Spirit
So does that satisfy the requirement for being "born of the Spirit"? Yes
But can a sinner be born again without having received the Holy Spirit? Not at all
So how does the sinner receive the gift of the Spirit? By obeying the Gospel
And is the Gospel called the "incorruptible seed" which brings about the New Birth? Absolutely
Therefore what is "born of water in this context? Born of the "water" of the Word of God
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the Word (Eph 5:26)
Is the New Birth supernatural and spiritual? Yes
Who is the One who creates "a new creature is Christ"? The Holy Spirit
So does that satisfy the requirement for being "born of the Spirit"? Yes
But can a sinner be born again without having received the Holy Spirit? Not at all
So how does the sinner receive the gift of the Spirit? By obeying the Gospel
And is the Gospel called the "incorruptible seed" which brings about the New Birth? Absolutely
Therefore what is "born of water in this context? Born of the "water" of the Word of God
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the Word (Eph 5:26)