Lets talk about Paul

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
R

Romans614

Guest
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
Rom 3:20

But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. [SUP]22 [/SUP]This righteousness is given through faith in[SUP][h][/SUP] Jesus Christ to all who believe.
Rom 3:21&22

For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the observing the law. Rom 3:28

Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness Rom 10:4

not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in[SUP][a][/SUP] Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith
Phil 3:9

We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles [SUP]16 [/SUP]know that a person is not justified(or righteous) by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in[SUP][d][/SUP] Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified
Gal2:15&16

I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”[e]

Gal2:21

Etc, etc, etc
 
R

Romans614

Guest
Hi Romans614.

Why don't you speak to the one who is talking to you?

And I think you mean the question to me.



I didn't get on top of the law by not turning to it
with my faith in Jesus that it is the right thing to do God's commandments.
I didn't need any other reason than that the law is His commandments.

My sinful passions were before I came to Jesus,
aroused by the law of faith, which I lived by before coming to Christ,
and receiving the law.
The law showed me my sins.
I started to work on myself right away.

Now I am on top of the law.
Now I have a fairly good understanding.
I can say that. I'm not boasting.
After just one year of meditating on it daily, you would start to get on top of it too.
Wouldn't you.
Imagine someone who meditated on it daily for ten or twenty years.
That's what I'm aiming for.

Bless you. Bless God.
Paul

But his delight is in the law of the LORD;
and in His law doth he meditate day and night.
And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water,
that brings forth his fruit in his season;
his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he does shall prosper.

Psalm 1:2-3​
It is quite plainly written. Once the law came to Saul the Pharisee, he became a worse sinner.

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.[SUP]8 [/SUP]But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Rom 7:7-11



Sin took occasion of the commandment: Thou shalt not covet, to arouse all manner of concupiscence in Saul the Pharisee. The law did not just reveal the sin. The sin became worse!

You cannot address that, nor do you understand it
 
Oct 28, 2017
191
5
0
You posted while I was writing to you.

Thank you for your meat offering.
Do you mind if I part your bullock?

You see, I speak to what is said,
with no disrespect to you.

Some people need a righteousness of observing the law to be in place to encourage them to want to live as God desires them too.
Some people?
God wants all to come to repentance, doesn't He?

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness;
but is longsuffering to us-ward,
not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

2 Peter 3:9

The born again Christian does not need such a righteousness in place.
Jesus circumcises their hearts when they are born again.
Gives them a new heart. Yes?

For I testify again
to every man that is circumcised,
that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Galatians 5:3

Christ is of no effect if you are saved and then do not keep the law.

For they love God and the law he desires them to follow is written in their minds and placed on their hearts by God himself.
How can He write it in your heart if you haven't even studied it?
And besides, you have told us what is written in your heart, haven't you?
You are dead to the law.
That isn't a heart with the law written in it.
The heart with the law written in it teaches the law.

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments,
and shall teach men so,
he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:
but whosoever shall do and teach them,
the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5:19

What is in your mind you in your mind must obviously know, and the law in your heart must mean you in your heart want to follow it. Such people do not need a righteousness of observing the law.
What is obedience then, if not observing God's law?

Casting down imaginations,
and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God,
and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

2 Corinthians 10:5


Those who want to cling to righteousness of observing the law don't obey the law themselves.
How would you know?
Not knowing it and not keeping it yourself, you have no way to know who does and who doesn't.

If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine,
whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

John 7:17

They may obey outwardly/clean the outside of the cup but they cannot obey the law on the inside.
How will you ever know, if you never try?

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Romans 7:22

Those who understand Pauls message know, if you cling to righteousness of observing the law, sin shall be your master and you shall be sins slave.
Those that observe the law get hear God's message.

My doctrine shall drop as the rain, My speech shall distil as the dew,
as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

Deuteronomy 32:2

Victory over sin, according to Paul is dying to a righteousness of observing the law.
I think you got it all mixed up
so you can have an excuse to not observe that which you know is holy, and just, and good.

For not the hearers of the law are just before God,
but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Romans 2:13

However, those led of their natural minds into truth will never understand Pauls message, only the Holy Spirit can turn on the light
Those led by the law are not led by their natural mind,
they are led by the law.

Men are not led into truth by their natural minds.
Jesus leads us to the truth.
And God's law, the law for righteousness, is the truth.

Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.
Psalm 119:92

As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us:
yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God,
that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand Thy truth.

Daniel 9:13

We have to turn to the law, God's truth,
and pray to understand it.
Is what my Bible, and Jesus, tells me

But you just gave us your statutes. Didn't you?
They are the laws in your heart.

Thank you for offering them to us.
But we have God's law.
Paul
Hearken unto Me, ye that know righteousness,
the people in whose heart is My law;
fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.

Isaiah 51:7​
 
Last edited:
R

Romans614

Guest
You posted while I was writing to you.

Thank you for your meat offering.
Do you mind if I part your bullock?

You see, I speak to what is said,
with no disrespect to you.

Some people?
God wants all to come to repentance, doesn't He?

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness;
but is longsuffering to us-ward,
not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

2 Peter 3:9

Jesus circumcises their hearts when they are born again.
Gives them a new heart. Yes?

For I testify again
to every man that is circumcised,
that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Galatians 5:3

Christ is no effect if you are saved and then do not keep the law.

How can He write it in your heart if you haven't even studied it?
And besides, you have told us what is written in your heart, haven't you?
You are dead to the law.
That isn't a heart with the law written in it.
The heart with the law written in it teaches the law.

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments,
and shall teach men so,
he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:
but whosoever shall do and teach them,
the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5:19

What is obedience then, if not observing God's law?

Casting down imaginations,
and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God,
and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

2 Corinthians 10:5


How would you know?
Not knowing it and not keeping it yourself, you have no way to know who does and who doesn't.

If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine,
whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

John 7:17

How will you ever know, if you never try?

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Romans 7:22

Those that observe the law get hear God's message.

My doctrine shall drop as the rain, My speech shall distil as the dew,
as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

Deuteronomy 32:2

I think you got it all mixed up
so you can have an excuse to not observe that which you know is holy, and just, and good.

For not the hearers of the law are just before God,
but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Romans 2:13

Those led by the law are not led by their natural mind,
they are led by the law.

Men are not led into truth by their natural minds.
Jesus leads us to the truth.
And God's law, the law for righteousness, is the truth.

Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.
Psalm 119:92

As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us:
yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God,
that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand Thy truth.

Daniel 9:13

We have to turn to the law, God's truth,
and pray to understand it.
Is what my Bible, and Jesus, tells me

But you just gave us your statutes. Didn't you?
They are the laws in your heart.

Thank you for offering them to us.
But we have God's law.
Paul
Hearken unto Me, ye that know righteousness,
the people in whose heart is My law;
fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.

Isaiah 51:7​
What has coming to repentance got to do with not living under a righteousness of observing the law?

Christians do not circumcise their own hearts, God does it through the Holy Spirit(Deut30:6&Rom 2:29

You don't have to study/read what is written in ink to know what is already in your heart and mind.

Obedience comes from faith Rom 1:5
 
R

Romans614

Guest
You posted while I was writing to you.

Thank you for your meat offering.
Do you mind if I part your bullock?

You see, I speak to what is said,
with no disrespect to you.

Some people?
God wants all to come to repentance, doesn't He?

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness;
but is longsuffering to us-ward,
not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

2 Peter 3:9

Jesus circumcises their hearts when they are born again.
Gives them a new heart. Yes?

For I testify again
to every man that is circumcised,
that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Galatians 5:3

Christ is of no effect if you are saved and then do not keep the law.

How can He write it in your heart if you haven't even studied it?
And besides, you have told us what is written in your heart, haven't you?
You are dead to the law.
That isn't a heart with the law written in it.
The heart with the law written in it teaches the law.

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments,
and shall teach men so,
he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:
but whosoever shall do and teach them,
the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5:19

What is obedience then, if not observing God's law?

Casting down imaginations,
and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God,
and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

2 Corinthians 10:5


How would you know?
Not knowing it and not keeping it yourself, you have no way to know who does and who doesn't.

If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine,
whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

John 7:17

How will you ever know, if you never try?

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Romans 7:22

Those that observe the law get hear God's message.

My doctrine shall drop as the rain, My speech shall distil as the dew,
as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

Deuteronomy 32:2

I think you got it all mixed up
so you can have an excuse to not observe that which you know is holy, and just, and good.

For not the hearers of the law are just before God,
but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Romans 2:13

Those led by the law are not led by their natural mind,
they are led by the law.

Men are not led into truth by their natural minds.
Jesus leads us to the truth.
And God's law, the law for righteousness, is the truth.

Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.
Psalm 119:92

As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us:
yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God,
that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand Thy truth.

Daniel 9:13

We have to turn to the law, God's truth,
and pray to understand it.
Is what my Bible, and Jesus, tells me

But you just gave us your statutes. Didn't you?
They are the laws in your heart.

Thank you for offering them to us.
But we have God's law.
Paul
Hearken unto Me, ye that know righteousness,
the people in whose heart is My law;
fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.

Isaiah 51:7​
If you have any impure thoughts/lust, think an unkind thought against your neighbour, say an unkind word to them, fail to love your enemies, including those who may slander, malign or persecute you, you fail to observe the law

No, I'm not mixed up at all, you are:

For sin shall not be your master, for you are not(not) under law but under grace Rom 6:14

Those who rely on reading what is written in ink to understand which law God desires them to follow cannot be led of the Holy Spirit who plants the law in their most inward parts:


But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Rom 7:6

Its one or the other.

I see you cannot address the scripture or questions I placed before you
 
R

Romans614

Guest
[SUP] [/SUP]You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts

2Cor3:3
 
Oct 28, 2017
191
5
0
You offered another offering while I was baking mine. :)

Thank you.
I can see that you are patiently exhorting with longsuffering and making full proof of your ministry.
That is good.

It is quite plainly written.
So is the law.

Once the law came to Saul the Pharisee, he became a worse sinner.
When Jesus came to Saul, He opened His eyes to the true meanings of God's law.
And Saul became a saint.

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.[SUP]8 [/SUP]But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Rom 7:7-11
Without the law was before we came to Jesus.
Then we knew not that we had sin.

Now we have the law, the law teaches us what is clean and what is unclean.

Sin took occasion of the commandment: Thou shalt not covet, to arouse all manner of concupiscence in Saul the Pharisee. The law did not just reveal the sin. The sin became worse!

You cannot address that, nor do you understand it
Is that your prayer?
You hope you know something I don't?

Can you comprehend Leviticus?
If not, I'm doing a thread on burnt offerings at the moment,
if you are interested.

It is called Animals in scripture.

You might be surprised how easy it is to understand the law, when you try.
Or you might just think all I offer is bull.
Paul
 
Last edited:
R

Romans614

Guest
Now we have the law, the law teaches us what is clean and what is unclean.
[SUP] [/SUP]I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean
Rom 14:14

Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble
verse20

Its not I mind simply addressing your points, but debate is supposed to be two way. If you know more than I do, as you seem to believe, why can you not address the points and scripture placed before you?
 
Oct 28, 2017
191
5
0
Thank you, Romans614

What has coming to repentance got to do with not living under a righteousness of observing the law?
What are you repenting to do, if not God's law?

Christians do not circumcise their own hearts, God does it through the Holy Spirit(Deut30:6&Rom 2:29
Correct.
Is your heart circumcised?

Mine is.

You don't have to study/read what is written in ink to know what is already in your heart and mind.
I have to study/read your words, to know what is in your heart and mind for me.

Just the same, I have to study/read God's word to know what is in His heart and mind for me.
But especially His commandments.

Obedience comes from faith Rom 1:5
Nobody observes the law except they have faith in it.
I couldn't have faith in faith,
but I found I that could have faith in God's written law,
because He is God, and I have faith in God.

If you have any impure thoughts/lust, think an unkind thought against your neighbour, say an unkind word to them, fail to love your enemies, including those who may slander, malign or persecute you, you fail to observe the law
How about when you are telling them they shouldn't be observing the law,
because that is what you think St Paul is saying?

Is that observing the law?

No, I'm not mixed up at all, you are:

For sin shall not be your master, for you are not(not) under law but under grace Rom 6:14
I'm under Jesus.
Jesus is the word of God.
He is an everlasting commandment.
A law of righteousness.
Holy, and just, and good.

Those who rely on reading what is written in ink to understand which law God desires them to follow cannot be led of the Holy Spirit who plants the law in their most inward parts:
Can't rely on what God's word says?

I believe we can.
His word is pure.
It is men that sin.
It was men that kept you away from God's law for righteousness, by giving you bum steers.
By all their letters to you instructing you to not observe the law,
but to say you are now under grace, so you don't have to observe the holy commandment which was delivered to you.
And they taught you all tricks they do with St Paul's words to justify themselves and each other.
They did not teach you the righteousness of the law.
They taught you to say you already have it, by grace.
We see it in all the letters they post.
You follow their letters, but you will not follow the letter of the law.

But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Rom 7:6

Its one or the other.

I see you cannot address the scripture or questions I placed before you
I cannot change your perspective on the word.
One has to pray to Jesus if they want to understand God's law.

It is the only way.
Men could help, if they could/would teach it right.
But they teach you to not observe it instead.
Paul
 
R

Romans614

Guest
Thank you, Romans614

What are you repenting to do, if not God's law?

Correct.
Is your heart circumcised?

Mine is.

I have to study/read your words, to know what is in your heart and mind for me.

Just the same, I have to study/read God's word to know what is in His heart and mind for me.
But especially His commandments.

Nobody observes the law except they have faith in it.
I couldn't have faith in faith,
but I found I that could have faith in God's written law,
because He is God, and I have faith in God.

How about when you are telling them they shouldn't be observing the law,
because that is what you think St Paul is saying?

Is that observing the law?

I'm under Jesus.
Jesus is the word of God.
He is an everlasting commandment.
A law of righteousness.
Holy, and just, and good.

Can't rely on what God's word says?

I believe we can.
His word is pure.
It is men that sin.
It was men that kept you away from God's law for righteousness, by giving you bum steers.
By all their letters to you instructing you to not observe the law,
but to say you are now under grace, so you don't have to observe the holy commandment which was delivered to you.
And they taught you all tricks they do with St Paul's words to justify themselves and each other.
They did not teach you the righteousness of the law.
They taught you to say you already have it, by grace.
We see it in all the letters they post.
You follow their letters, but you will not follow the letter of the law.

I cannot change your perspective on the word.
One has to pray to Jesus if they want to understand God's law.

It is the only way.
Men could help, if they could/would teach it right.
But they teach you to not observe it instead.
Paul
Time for you to answer a question, not just ask them.

Why was all manner of concupiscence aroused in saul the Pharisee through his knowledge of the commandment: Thou shalt not covet(rom7:7)

Knowledge of the law did not just bring an awareness of sin to Saul, he became a far worse sinner. Why????
 
R

Romans614

Guest
I'm under Jesus.
Jesus is the word of God.
He is an everlasting commandment.
A law of righteousness.
Holy, and just, and good.
Well you may be under a law of righteousness, but the person charged with being the chief exponent of the New Covenant to the world relentlessly states the Christian is not righteous by observing the law. But as you refuse to believe him, no wonder you refuse to accept anything I say

Rom 1:17, Rom 3:20, Rom 3:21&22, Rom 3:28, Rom 6:14, Rom 10:4, Gal 2:19, Gal 2:21, Phil 3:9, Gal2:14&15 Etc, etc, etc
 
Oct 28, 2017
191
5
0
I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean
Rom 14:14
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these;
adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry,
witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions,
heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like:
of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past,
that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:19-21

Tells me a lot of things were unclean, for St Paul.

Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble
I beleive the flesh of the men who steer us away from observing the Lord's law is unclean.
And we should not eat it.

verse20

Its not I mind simply addressing your points, but debate is supposed to be two way. If you know more than I do, as you seem to believe, why can you not address the points and scripture placed before you?
I have addressed them.

I told you, because my faith in is in God, and in His word,
(as I believe St Paul's was too)
then "the law of faith" is referring to the law of Moses.

If you read St Paul and everywhere he says "the law of faith", or "the law of Spirit",
and read it as a reference to God's law, which came by Moses (Joh 1:17)
then the law of sin and death is the law which arises in the heart when a man is not observing God's law.

Read that way, St Paul is confirming God's words in the rest of the Bible,
rather than saying to not observe them.
Which makes sense to me.

The heathen are under the law, because they do not observe it.
We are on top of the law, because we have faith in Jesus,
and because have studied the law under the tutorship of our Holy Ghost from Jesus.

Love the law.
Delight in the law.
Then it shall no longer condemn you,
for you shall sin no more
Paul
 
R

Romans614

Guest
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these;
adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry,
witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions,
heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like:
of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past,
that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:19-21

Tells me a lot of things were unclean, for St Paul.

I beleive the flesh of the men who steer us away from observing the Lord's law is unclean.
And we should not eat it.

I have addressed them.

I told you, because my faith in is in God, and in His word,
(as I believe St Paul's was too)
then "the law of faith" is referring to the law of Moses.

If you read St Paul and everywhere he says "the law of faith", or "the law of Spirit",
and read it as a reference to God's law, which came by Moses (Joh 1:17)
then the law of sin and death is the law which arises in the heart when a man is not observing God's law.

Read that way, St Paul is confirming God's words in the rest of the Bible,
rather than saying to not observe them.
Which makes sense to me.

The heathen are under the law, because they do not observe it.
We are on top of the law, because we have faith in Jesus,
and because have studied the law under the tutorship of our Holy Ghost from Jesus.

Love the law.
Delight in the law.
Then it shall no longer condemn you,
for you shall sin no more
Paul
I see you still are unwilling(or unable) to address the one question I asked you.
Why, when the commandment came to Saul(thou shalt not covet) did it result in all manner of concupiscence being aroused in Saul. He simply became a worse sinner
Theres not much point in you and I having a discussion if you cannot reason what is written is there.
 
Oct 28, 2017
191
5
0
Thank you, Romans614.
I see you still are unwilling(or unable) to address the one question I asked you.
Why, when the commandment came to Saul(thou shalt not covet) did it result in all manner of concupiscence being aroused in Saul. He simply became a worse sinner
Theres not much point in you and I having a discussion if you cannot reason what is written is there.
It was because Saul was a Pharisee, before he encountered Jesus on the road to Damascus,
and the Pharisees kept the law carnally.
They kept the law as a ceremonial work, and did not do it by faith.
They interpreted it as saying we have bring the Lord livestock,
and keep special holy days, and circumcise the boys, and don't work on saturdays.
They didn't know that isn't what God is saying in His law,
because they didn't have Jesus teaching it to them.
They didn't keep by faith.

But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees,
he cried out in the council,
Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee:
of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

Acts 23:6

I don't know why that was so important to you.
If you keep the law by faith, then teach the commandments.

Instead, you are asking me testing questions, as the Pharisees did of Jesus
Paul
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
1,537
87
48
I see you still are unwilling(or unable) to address the one question I asked you.
Why, when the commandment came to Saul(thou shalt not covet) did it result in all manner of concupiscence being aroused in Saul. He simply became a worse sinner
Theres not much point in you and I having a discussion if you cannot reason what is written is there.
This will be my last reply to you. As I made clear, I seen your first post for what it was, an opening to bring into this thread what it is not meant to be. I gave you warning i my reply to that, that I wasn't going to turn this into that debate. As your post have shown, you say first one thing, then turn around ans say it isn't true. If the Law is written in ones heart, then by your words, In post #356
Romans 614 You cannot 3escape the law God desires you to follow for it is written in your mind and placed on your heart. That is one of the two core components upon which the New Covenant stands. And what is in your mind you in your mind must surely know. And the law in your heart must bring heartfelt conviction of sin when you wilfully transgress it.
This is a complete turn around from post #358 were you say,
Romans614Why are sinfull passions aroused in people by the law if they live under it? You haven't got a clue have you:
As this one question shows you are doing nothing more look to argue, I am done with this.
I will howevr answer the question I posted.from post #358
In a true follower of Yeshua, the Law doesn't arouse a more sinful sinful passion. It does however make one aware of the sin in their life so that they can work to correct their heart, and remove said sin. You see, the Law that is placed in ones heart, is the same law many wish to say has been removed., and in some extream cases like this, they wish to say it makes us sin. That in my mind is just a person wishing to say "The devil made me do it." Now I am done with this as you have both it clear no matte what answer you get, you will only argue that your the only with any true understanding, even when you have already made it clear you turn on own teaching to make an argument.
 
Last edited:

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
1,537
87
48
Thank you, Romans614.It was because Saul was a Pharisee, before he encountered Jesus on the road to Damascus,
and the Pharisees kept the law carnally.
They kept the law as a ceremonial work, and did not do it by faith.
They interpreted it as saying we have bring the Lord livestock,
and keep special holy days, and circumcise the boys, and don't work on saturdays.
They didn't know that isn't what God is saying in His law,
because they didn't have Jesus teaching it to them.
They didn't keep by faith.

But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees,
he cried out in the council,
Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee:
of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

Acts 23:6

I don't know why that was so important to you.
If you keep the law by faith, then teach the commandments.

Instead, you are asking me testing questions, as the Pharisees did of Jesus
Paul
I must say you are more patient that I. When a person seeks to find fault in every word you say, no matter how true the words are, find it best to walk away. When they will turn their teachings into a statement of fiction, should we not see that there is no reason in their mind? Don't get me wrong, there is always the chance, they simple are not making them self clear, and what seems to be a rejection of what they had just said is in fact not so at all. However, once a person rejects the law of righteousness, truing it into sin , or at lets leaves that idea behind, then it is safe to say they are confused as to what they think.
Also I am not sure what Bible is being used, though it does seem to be one that I would not endorse.
Anyway it is time to move and get back on track. You are free to debate if you wish, after all, you are doing a good job.
May HaShem bless your work and your words.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
1,537
87
48
1 Cor. 14

1 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.
2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.
3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men.
4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.

When one speaks in tongues, it may not be known what they say, making this gift seem a bit selfish, however we can't really say it is, after all can we say that when a person prays in the spirit, that they are not praying for others?
Prophecy on the other hand is clear to everyone that hears it. Even if that word that comes to us, is meant to correct us or lift us up. One thing that we may miss in this, is that if one uses the gift loaned to them for self edification, they loss 2 things. First they loss the respect they were trying to gain, second that gift is removed from them. I know it doesn't say that, however as one loks at the gifts, and studies them, it becomes clear. This is why the ability to do the things Paul speaks of, I call loans, and not true gifts. After a gift is yours, and can't be removed. A loan on the other hand can be removed.


5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.

6 But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you unless I speak to you either by revelation, by knowledge, by prophesying, or by teaching?
7 Even things without life, whether flute or harp, when they make a sound, unless they make a distinction in the sounds, how will it be known what is piped or played?
8 For if the trumpet makes an uncertain sound, who will prepare himself for battle?
9 So likewise you, unless you utter by the tongue words easy to understand, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air.
10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of languages in the world, and none of them is without significance.
11 Therefore, if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to him who speaks, and he who speaks will be a foreigner to me.

Paul seems to trying to make it clear why speaking in tongues may not be seen as a good thing. Just a person that goes out side of their homeland, may well have find it hard to find what they are looking for, unless they first learn the language of the place they are going to. Yet one can't over look that this gift may be loaned to us in order that we can speak to others, even if we don't know their language. Is that not what was seen in Acts chapter 2?


12 Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel.
13 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret.
14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding.
16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say "Amen" at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say?
17 For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified.
18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all;
19 yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

It isn't hard to see what Paul is talking of. If one thinks of being in a place of learning, and never understanding a word that is said, you learn nothing at all. It would much better to understand what is said, so that we can learn. Yet that same time if you see, Mary lamb had a little. A little what? what ever it was the lamb was happy to have it.


20 Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature.
21 In the law it is written: "With men of other tongues and other lips I will speak to this people; And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me," says the Lord.
22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.
23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind?
24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all.
25 And thus the secrets of his heart are revealed; and so, falling down on his face, he will worship God and report that God is truly among you.

Though Paul uses Deut.28:49, and Isa. 28:11-12, one can also see Acts 2 in this. After all in Acts did not some 3000 turn to Yeshua that before seeing what was going on, didn't believe.


26 How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.
27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret.
28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God.
29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge.
30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent.
31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.
32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says.
35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.
36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?

37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.

It is hard for one to say that Paul doesn't teach from the Tanakh when we read the above. Useing Temple Warship as the foundation, Paul teaches both order, as well the place of every person in the church. Don't get me wrong, if HaShem moves a women to give a word of encouragement or to correct us, we should never set that a said. Didn't Paul give thanks to many women in the book of Romans? In fact Phobeb was named as a deacon, a a sister, and a benefactor. The there is always, Priscilla, who along with her husband work along side Paul.
In the teaching that the Law was nailed to the cross, and is not longer valid, does it not also negate the words of Paul? After all if all the commandments are done away with, then for Paul to say his words are commandments from the Lord, removes all authority would it not? Yet as we know that Paul has never said the all commandments are done away with, this would not be the case. What it may be speaking of, is that Paul was in hopes that they would take his teaching seriously, as though it was a commandment from HaShem. In this case, one can't remove the attached idea that all commandments hold truth, and that is not Pauls intent to remove them. I am not telling any one that we must follow the letter of the law, keep in mind that we are to follow the spirit of the law. As noted before, the Holy Spirit leads us not into sin, but away from sin. He does this by leading us with in the Spiritual intent of Torah.


38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.
39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues.
40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
1,537
87
48
1 Cor. chapter 15

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,

By qualifying the word of Yeshua, and how His death and resurrection, was in fulfillment of scripture, Paul is makeing clear that his teaching are in line with the Torah, and the Prophets. After all one would be hard pressed to say the Torah didn't speak of Yeshua, and His work on this earth.


5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve.
6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep.
7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles.
8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.

9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

The idea that Paul was born out of due time can be seen to mean many things. One teaching tells us that Paul's speaking to his unusual manner of conversion. As well as how he feels unworthy to be called an apostle, due in part to how he persecuted believers. There is strong evidence for this teaching. The other, that also holds some compelling evidence, tells us that Paul may be using the phrase born out of due time, to make note of the many opponents of his apostleship.


10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
11 Therefore, whether it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

All of the apostles, perched the same message, though it was in different manners, and words. Both the base message, and the core foundation were there. HaShems grace leads us to faith, and we follow in obedience to the lead of the Holy Spirit. If we are missing just one of the fundamentals, can we truly say we are saved?


12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen.
14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.
15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up--if in fact the dead do not rise.
16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.
17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!
18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.

Some in Corinth may have had a hard time with a bodily resurrection. This is also seen some churches today, as they find it easier to follow that only the soul of a person lives on. However, as Yeshua was raised body and all, Paul finds that we to will have a bodily resurrection. After all, was not Yeshua the example of what will come for all that believe in Him? As Pul makes clear, if Yeshua didn't rise from the grave, then we as followers are the ones that should be pitied.


20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.

As the feast show us the work of Yeshua, so to must Yeshua fulfill them all. Paul makes note of firstfruits here, and by some teachings Yeshua was lifted from he gave on the day of firstfruits. There are also some that use this passage to show a post trib doctrine. Not everyone follows that teaching, and I am not going say it is right or wrong, nor will I get into debate over it. I know what I follow, and only HaShem has the power to show if I am right or wrong.


24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.
28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
29 Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? Why then are they baptized for the dead?

I will only say that being baptized for the dead has been a hot button topic for years, As Paul never says it is right, nor tells us it wrong, the use of this passage in that debate gives no wight to any teaching. One may also take note that this one place one will find any word on the topic at all.


30 And why do we stand in jeopardy every hour?
31 I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
32 If, in the manner of men, I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantage is it to me? If the dead do not rise, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!"

33 Do not be deceived: "Evil company corrupts good habits."

If one that is weak in their faith gives an ear to faults teachings, they run the risk of also following them. However, at the same time we should all be slow to pass judgment on anthers teachings. If a teaching is not what you think it should be, or it goes against everything you think you know, Rather than dismiss it off hand, test it by the full scripture.. Not just one part of scripture, the whole of scripture.
Sorry had to cut this post. It was to long.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
1,537
87
48
As have also done in the other thread I have going, I am going to give only the number of the verse I am speaking of, as this will allow a bit more commentary, and yet remain short and to the point. I will know that you can read the chapter on your own, if you are willing to. If not, as I said in the other post, my posting it will not change that you that.

We left off with 15:33 so I am going to pick up there.

In 34 Paul makes it clear that he doesn't think some of the people to whom he writes, knows HaShem. This is not a rebuke over the teachings of law, or not following law, as that idea simply doesn't fit with the rest of the chapter. It may well be however, their skepticism of the resurrection that Paul is speak of in this chapter, show a lack of faith. This idea is also backed by the rest of this chapter.
35- 39 goes on to try and explain 2 things. First the in the simple understanding of this a seed must die before it grous. If you plant wheat, you get wheat. Yet the plant doesn't look the seed. Just as with man kind, when a person comes to Yeshua, they must also die to their old selves, and they are the same as the person that came to Yeshua at all.
The hull or out side of a seed, is pulled off, and left to rot once it grows. The sinful life we once lead is also left behind as we start to grow in Yeshua.
Also when asked about what kind of body we will have after we are resurrected, thought it may be seen and identified as us, that body will not be the same, i that it will be of righteousness, and will not age. Some say if you think of what you look like when you were in your prime, then you will know what your body will look like. Other say it will look as you did when you passed away, only with no health,or crippling disorders. In any case, I think we will all be happy, and not really care if we have gray hair, or, in the case of some men, we didn't get our hair back.
40-41 The seed we had planted i us, changes us, it may be watered from one person, and not from another. Just as not everyone follows the teachings of one church, yet they find Spiritual life from another. It doesn't make that church any better in the eyes of HaShem, it just makes it better fit for the one that finds it as right for them. If one finds in their heart that to follow Torah, ( at lest the parts pertain to them) is right, and another doesn't, can they both be right? Sure can. Just as the sun and moon are not the same, and one simply reflects the light of the other, one teaching, ( if we really look) reflects the same light as any other. just in a little different way.
42-44 The teachings I have seen from this are wide. Many going to out into never never lad, and some not so much. The one that seems to stand out in my mind is that we will no longer have a physical body. Rather we will have a body like the angles, one that can take on any shape HaShem may need it to, in order to do what He needs us to do. In that teaching is also the idea that we will all have a job to do. Some may find that they are messengers, and others worriers. Some may even find that their job will be to sing, ( lets all hope I don't get that job) or to give praise, any number of jobs may be given to us. Oh just so you know, if He gives the job of singing, I am sure He will also give everyone ear plugs.
%1-53 Though there has been much debate over this passage. Mostly in the form of Per- Mid- or Post tribe rapture. A debat i will not enter into, as their seems one way to answer that, wait and see. I follow a "when it will" teaching on that one, so please keep that in mind.
Lets take time here to look at the 2 most predominate teachings here. Well as best I can anyhow. Per, in this teaching, it is said that HaShem will take us off this earth before the Tribe. He will do this to remove us from the plagues, and keep us from his anger. If I have that wrong, someone please set me right. What I find odd about this teaching,is that it never teaches about how HaShem, keep Israel in Egypt, and the plagues never harmed them. Well most of them didn't. So I ask any that follow this, has HaShem lost His power to keep us safe from His judgement? The answer is always NO. Yet He simply doesn't want us to face taking the mark, and be forced to try and care for our family with out being able to go to the store, or pay for anything we need. There are other answers, that sound nice and all,only they simply fall short in my mind.
On the flip side. Post. Here we are told that just like Israel, HaShem will keep us from the plagues, in that He will not let them harm us. He will feed us as He did Israel in the wilderness, and Elijah in 1kings 17. In my mind, it takes more faith to follow this teaching, than it does the Per. in that it places our whole safty in His hands, as well as following in total faithfulness, that He will give us our needs. Not our wants, and we may do without a lot of things we are so use to, like gas for heat, cars to get us around, and electricity for lights and A/C. Yet our need for food, water, and clothing will be seen to.
Also, when we speak of the weak in faith, if they follow the idea that we will be lifted off this earth before hand, and it doesn't happen, their faith may well be crushed. They may not see the mark for what it truly is, and they may well loss their salvation. Now to follow the post, and we are removed from this earth before hand. What a happy day. I mean really, do we want to be here to see all the suffering of people we know, and some we call friends? I don't, then I am also ready to face anything HaShem gives me. So it will happen when it happens. We can't change it, we can however, be ready to face it. I mean really, a broke down old man like me, that can't walk more than a 1/4 mile with out being in so much pain it seems falling over dead would be a much better option. Knows in his hart, that if HaShem ever need him to lift a car off someone, or asked him to walk around for 3 1/2 years, that the pain would be removed, and the he could do anything HaShem asked of him. Thats faith. yet to think that HaShem is unable to keep him, so HaShem has to remove him from this earth, that is weak. At lest in my mind.

56- 57. It has been said in this post, by one that is a guest on here, that the Law makes us sin even more. As I did in my replay to that, the law doesn't the power to make us sin. It does however make us aware of our sin, so that we can confess them, and work to better our selves. True it is by the law that we are condemned, just as it true that if there was no law, their would be no sin. Yet even with that, it our own action, and couches that condemn us, not any action by the law. The Law is not some thing we should fare, rather it something should happy to have. It is holly, as Paul makes clear in Rom. 7:12. It is holy as it came from HaShem, it is just in that we can only find out our sin's by it's teaching. Yet we are given a way to over come our sin, through Yeshua. This doesn't mean we will never sin, (transgress the law) it does however mean that are free from it's power of conviction only if we repent.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
1,537
87
48
1 Cor. 16

1-4 There some that teach the reason for the money to set aside on the first day of the week, so due to the idea that we are not to handle money on Shabbot.That being the 7th day, it was to keep Holy, and as they see money as the root of all evil, we should have no dealings with it on the Holy day.
Others however say this is due to them being in church, and so it was a convent time to take up collection.
There is still more to be seen here. One not so popular teaching. If we are to try to follow the example set by the first century church, by patterning our ways after them, then this shows that we should always be giving when Israel has a need. This is followed by people that believe in Gen. 12:3, as they follow that by helping Israel, they will be blessed. In fact, they will use the USA and England as examples of this. (Yes I my self do follow this line of thinking) The example is that at one time England held the world reserve currency. Then when they said the Israel People couldn't have guns, yet let the (as they were called at the time) Arab refuges have them, they fell into decline. After WW2, England lost their standing, as they were broke, and didn't have the need cash to back further transactions between nations. That's when the US steep in. As we at the time, may had just came out of the depression, we were still able to help with the cost of rebuilding nations around the world. We also held enough gold to back our own currency, with tons left over. At that time, the USA also helped Israel in many ways, some known others not so much. Take the little known of add we gave Israel in both their war for independence, as well as the 6 day war. However, as the USA slowly turned it's back on Israel, by way of unfair peace agreements, and putting pressure on them to give up land. our financial future also began to look worse and worse. Then in the last 12 years or so, we have faced many things. The housing bubble, bank bailouts, along with others. We went from being 8 trillion in debt under Obama, to being 19 trillion in debt. If one looks at how this nation treated Israel in that time, you soon see that that has turned it's back on them.
Sorry for the rabbit trail, lets get back on track.
5-9 As we read that Paul is going to stay in Ephesus for the harvest festival. One that in Torah calls for all Jews to go to Jerusalem, we must keep in mind, as always there are many teaching on this. To some it shows that the feast have been removed, or Paul would have left for Jerusalem, without delay. Though that does sound like a valid argument, the other does as well. As in it we are told, Paul following not the letter of the law, rather the spirit, was right not stay. As the Torah does place human above most it's laws. By staying, paul was going about the work of HaShem, and so was right in what he done. After all, to leave, Paul would take the chance of the open door being closed upon his return.
10-11. It may be that Paul knowing Timothy was not as well grounded as himself, or that Timothy was shy. So Paul wished that he be teared with kids gloves. However it may also be that Timothy was treated with disrespect many times when sent out on his own. From all that we have seen of the people in Corinth up to this point, I find that Paul may have wished them to do better, and so asked that they not treat Timothy better then do one another.
21. As seen many times, Paul ends this letter with his own hand. This makes it clear that Paul used a scribe to write the letter. There are some that think Paul had bad eyesight, and others think he may have something wrong with his hands. there are many lines of thought on that one, way to many to list.