Warning! Catholic church is a FALSE religion

[suaso]

Well...I needed to edit the above post but cant because of timelimits, so I would also like to provide this example:

Increasingly we have seen a rise in atheistm, agnosticism, and other religions like Buddhism, Islam, Mormonism, Neo-paganism...etc in countries where Christianity was once the norm. Christians are abandoning their faith in Christ for non-faith in Christ. By your logic, kujo, "There are so many denomination because people are leaving the Catholic Church because it is wrong." By this same logic, Christians are becoming ex-Christians to join other religions/non-religions because Christianity is wrong."

So, is that true? Does a negative reaction to one thing disprove the validity of that thing? I believe the true reason we have ex-Catholic Christians is the same reason we have any form of ex-Christians at all: people have the ability to choose and to decide what the want and how they want it. We have real proof that no one can agree on the same thing in both of these examples. That's about it. We could argue ex-Christians were never taught Christianity correctly and that is why they are leaving it. I would say the exact same about ex-Catholic Christians: They were never properly catechised, despite the fact that they say they were. I suppose those ex-Christians who are now making pilgrimages to Mecca were never properly taught the Christian religion to begin with. Someone made a more convinving argument somewhere along the line, unfortunately. That doesn't mean that the person who made the most convincing argument was neccessarily in possesion of the truest of truths...they simply may have had more zeal or passion. Heck...OJ Simpson had a great lawyer, didn't he?

 

[Baptistrw]

There may be a chance that you may be missing the point of the role of saints (among whom Mary is a saint, only considered to be more important than the other saints because of her relation ship to God that has been more unique than any other human being ever).

The role of the saints in the Catholic and Orthodoxs churches is to essentially bare witness to God. For instance, St. Peter bears witness to God by first preaching the gospels, then by leading the apostles, then by being martyred for the faith. St. Stephan (see Acts) bore witness to God by being stoned to death for his belief in Christ. St. Mary, the Mother of God, bears witness to God by saying 'yes' to his will that she give birth to the Savior of the world. I can go on forever. St. Lawrence refused to offer up the "treasures" of the churches to the Roman emporer, stating that the treasure was the people themselves, so he was roasted alive while bearing witness that the Christian is in the world but not of it. St. Patrick sacrificed a comfortable life to bring the Gospel to the Celtic pagans. St. Boniface travels to Gemany, cuts down a tree believed to be sacred to the pagan god Thor to prove that God is the only God and that no pagan deities have any power over Christ, leading to the conversion of an entire pagan people. St. Francis bears witness to Christian poverty by making himself meek and living under the appearence of a beggar despite being born into nobility to remind the people that the only real concern is that of life eternal. He forsakes wealth to establish an order that preaches the gospel even to the Saracens. St. Meinrad of Switzerland devotes his life to prayer until robber come seeking gold that they believe he has, and when they demand his treasure, he says "I will give you my treasure" and begins to recite the Lord's prayer, giving witness to God by showing these men what true treasure is. Yet they kill him in anger because they do not want the treasure that is Christ but only want material things...

I could continue to compile a small work of hagiography but I won't. The point is that the Saints are, for Catholics and the Orthodox, holy men and women who have lived their lives for Christ - even to the point of being killed for Christ. They are supurb examples for humans on how to follow Christ in a world that does not want to follow Christ. We believe that death is not the end of life. Those in heaven are alive with Christ. Their prayers rise up before God like incense, as it says in Revelations. Why are they praying in heaven? They are already in heaven. Could they not be praying for us? You may ask me to pray for you, and I will, and it will be of benefit for you and I to pray for one another, but surely the prayers of a Godly man or woman are more beneficial...especially the prayers of those dead who are alive with Christ.

(I still fail to see what the obsession over "images" of Mary in grilled cheese sandwhiches is. Seriously. The Catholic Church has never made any statement that any 'miraculos' images that 'appear' in food are anything more tha shapes in clouds - the result of too creative an imagination. This is a point that ought not have any mention in a serious discussion of Catholicsm. It is not pertanent to the actual beliefs of the Church. There are no Church doctrines or teaccings that mention cases such as this, so cases such as this are meaningless in relation to the argument at hand.
I could say: Bill Roy is a theif...and he has sideburns! The fact that Bill Roy has sideburns is not important. Sideburns don't make Bill Roy a theif. Roger Buck is a hero for rescuing those three children from the house fire...and he flosses daily. The fact that Roger Buck flosses daily has nothing to do with his heroism. The fact that some people think they see and image of anything or anyone in a peice of toast has absolutely nothing to do with what the Church actually belives concerning faith and salvation)

The point of any saint, especially Mary, is to lead people and point them to CHRIST. No one is supposed to like St. Thomas Aquinas because he was ridiculously smart. They like him because, using his extreme intelligence, he explained in a very intellectual way how it is not unreasonable to believe in God. He pointed to Christ through his work by showing to people how it is not foolish to believe in Christ. As for Mary, she pointed to Christ all the time. At Cana she said to the servants: "Do whatever he tells you" while telling her son, Jesus, that the wine had run out. "My soul magnifies the Lord" - exactly. She helps people know God by giving birth to the savior. Jesus is the Word made flesh...he had to be made flesh, and he was made flesh through birth - and Mary was his mother. Talk about leading people not to oneself but to God, she quite literally birthed the savior, and for the first time ever humans saw, spoke to, ate with, and were healed by God incarnate. That is why she is so special to us. That is why she is blessed among women. No other woman has ever done that. She is not worshipped as a goddess. She is recognized exactly for the role she played in salvation history: birthing the Savior of the World. When you find any other human being who has done that, let me know.

Mary is the mother of the man Christ Jesus, not the mother of God. Another thing, a smaller issue, is Revelation is singular, not plural. And every Christian believer is a saint. Not just one who does ''miracles''. Do you believe the catechism?

 

[thefightinglamb]

So I have both causually and religiously gone to Catholic churches for 2 years before giving up on it altogether...

The problems in the church are vigorous.

The first strange thing that struck me was bowing down to 'consecrated bread'. At first, I was a little dumfounded as to what to do with communion that is not partaken of, but going into a church that literaly bows down to bread is rediculuos.

Is the Lord in us or not? If he is then what relationship does what is in us have to physical presence (even if the Lord was manifested in some way in the bread)...the spiritual is never meant to bow to the physical...this is just basic lack of spiritual perception.

If the Eucharist was truly Christ, then when Jesus died, why didn't the true followers, divide up his physical body and have a feast? It may seem like I am kidding here. But truly consider it...True Catholics really believe that the Eucharist is the physical body... If it is truly his physical blood that we must drink, why did they not put buckets at the side of the cross, to be given to the church?

Also, personal or even defined saints are ludicruos... Just discern.... It is because you do not want the Lord Jesus as your Savior/example that you come up with others... For example, the saint you choose for your patron saint, NO persons journey is the same... If you make some other human's journey a model you try to imitate, you have lost your Savior... Refusing to follow the Lord, even if you follow their path (which may have been 100% in the Lord) you will not find God, because you have made their path your idol.

Another thing that plagues that catholicism is this need to make more and more laws. If something is spiritually true, it is true apart from the law... For example, if priests were never meant to marry they wouldn't marry naturally and the silly law would have no purpose...but as it stands all of the laws of the catholic church have become a curse to it. Just discern again. The soul cannot be governed by something outside it written on paper or even in stone. It is only the law the Lord writes in our hearts that has any power, meaning, truth and love. The laws that the catholic church or the pope or any outside authority as so can have no influence on what the truth actually is. The truth is the truth and the Spiritual heart in Christ knows it though the whole world (physical reality) were a liar.

I have much more to say, but don't remember it now. And I wasn't attacking here, just trying to show what I have seen.

God bless all who love the Lord alone, and through him love all
tony

ps. Even the idea of things like priests sacrificing marriage to serve God is off...even if it were true that priests were called to be single men, as it would be a joy to them and something their heart sought all along...

 

[Baptistrw]

So I have both causually and religiously gone to Catholic churches for 2 years before giving up on it altogether...

The problems in the church are vigorous.

The first strange thing that struck me was bowing down to 'consecrated bread'. At first, I was a little dumfounded as to what to do with communion that is not partaken of, but going into a church that literaly bows down to bread is rediculuos.

Is the Lord in us or not? If he is then what relationship does what is in us have to physical presence (even if the Lord was manifested in some way in the bread)...the spiritual is never meant to bow to the physical...this is just basic lack of spiritual perception.

If the Eucharist was truly Christ, then when Jesus died, why didn't the true followers, divide up his physical body and have a feast? It may seem like I am kidding here. But truly consider it...True Catholics really believe that the Eucharist is the physical body... If it is truly his physical blood that we must drink, why did they not put buckets at the side of the cross, to be given to the church?

Also, personal or even defined saints are ludicruos... Just discern.... It is because you do not want the Lord Jesus as your Savior/example that you come up with others... For example, the saint you choose for your patron saint, NO persons journey is the same... If you make some other human's journey a model you try to imitate, you have lost your Savior... Refusing to follow the Lord, even if you follow their path (which may have been 100% in the Lord) you will not find God, because you have made their path your idol.

Another thing that plagues that catholicism is this need to make more and more laws. If something is spiritually true, it is true apart from the law... For example, if priests were never meant to marry they wouldn't marry naturally and the silly law would have no purpose...but as it stands all of the laws of the catholic church have become a curse to it. Just discern again. The soul cannot be governed by something outside it written on paper or even in stone. It is only the law the Lord writes in our hearts that has any power, meaning, truth and love. The laws that the catholic church or the pope or any outside authority as so can have no influence on what the truth actually is. The truth is the truth and the Spiritual heart in Christ knows it though the whole world (physical reality) were a liar.

I have much more to say, but don't remember it now. And I wasn't attacking here, just trying to show what I have seen.

God bless all who love the Lord alone, and through him love all
tony

ps. Even the idea of things like priests sacrificing marriage to serve God is off...even if it were true that priests were called to be single men, as it would be a joy to them and something their heart sought all along...

Rightly spoken.

 

[Baptistrw]

The Catholics here we come across say they are Christians, but none know what the gospel is, it's always believe in God, be baptized and on and on. Works based path of salvation in every case, save none.

 

[cephas316]

I would like to quote from the Vatican Website's reproduction of the "CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH with regard to Purgatory, thereby illustrating why many of us Protestants are so against RC teachings (note: we should LOVE ALL CATHOLICS even if we HATE the DOCTRINE taught by the RCC!! We should not attack the PERSON, only the written, spoken etc documentation)

Taken from : http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2N.HTM

III. The Final Purification, or Purgatory

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the ****ed.604 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. the tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:605

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.606

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."607 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.608 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.609

(604-609 : references listed; see Vatican website; emphasis mine)

Why we oppose Purgatory :

• It opposes the clear and authoritative teaching of God’s Word with pagan myths and traditions (1 Tim. 6:3-5:2 Tim. 4:3-4). (1032>> book not in Canon of our (Protestant) Scripture)
• It denies the doctrine of justification. “By one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified” (Heb. 10:14).
• It denies the sufficiency of the blood of Jesus to purify all sin (1 John 1:7).
• It denies the necessity of the blood of the Lamb to purify and forgive any sin (Heb. 9:22).
• It denies that the punishment for any and all sin is eternal death. There is no temporal punishment for sin and no venial sins (Gen. 3:3: Ezek. 18:4: Rom. 6:23).
• It denies the instantaneous rapture of all believers (1 Thes 4:13-18). Those who must serve various lengths of time to be purged of sin could not be raptured to heaven at the same time.
• It diverts faith and trust away from the Lord Jesus Christ to a place (2 Cor. 11:34).
• It robs the Lord Jesus Christ of glory honor and praise (Jude 24).

The above is purely illustrative of the many problems many of us have with the RCC. The Cathecism was drawn up by the current Pope (as far as I know - If I am wrong pleaselet me know) and signed by the former Pope. It is still valid. I know of people who have gone to the Vatican and purchased Indulgences for those in Purgatory! Even after Luther, they are STILL selling those things. ONLY CHRIST CAN FORGIVE SINS!!!!

Let us pray for our RC brothers and sisters and treat them kindly. Do not attack them, rather attack the doctrine found in their documents and show them the errors using God's Word.

 

[roaringkitten]

I know of people who have gone to the Vatican and purchased Indulgences for those in Purgatory! Even after Luther, they are STILL selling those things. ONLY CHRIST CAN FORGIVE SINS!!!!

For the Pope to declare he can forgive sins is blasphemy! If people would start reading their Bibles instead of believing everything they hear they would come to realize this.....The purgatory is nothing more than a business to make money.......It's nothing more than robbing people!

 

[roaringkitten]

Something like this should make any professing Catholic stop and think!......I witnessed to a catholic a month ago and she told me her priest said the pope had the correct interpretation of the Word. So she was told it wasnt needed to read the Bible!

 

[Moviefan2k4]

I don't know about anyone else, but my stance on Roman Catholicism is divided into many parts. I'm well aware of some of their doctrines which blatantly go against Scripture, and yet I also try to treat them the same way as I would anyone else caught in a spiritual rut...by condemning the sin itself, but not the sinner. I don't hate Catholics, but I feel honor-bound to defend the truth.

Here's just a couple of the core doctrines which go against Scripture...

Priestly Confession and Absolution

The Catholic doctrine insists that in order to be seen as clean by God, every person must confess to a priest, who then gives them absolution for their sins. In other words, this is clearly a "salavtion by human effort" mentality, which erases the need for Christ's sacrifice completely.

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." ~1 Timothy 2:5~

The doctrine of necessary confession places the priest in divine authority, seemingly with no need to involve Jesus at all. This then raises the question, "Whom does the priest confess to when he screws up?" What makes a priest so fundamentally different from the parishioners in this way?

The 3 Vows for Nuns

Simply put, the vows every nun is required to take upon entering a convent include the following:

The Vow of Poverty
The Vow of Obedience
The Vow of Chastity

Well, let's tackle these one at a time. Since when is poverty necessary to serve God? Furthermore, how much sense does it make for the Catholic church to teach such a thing, and then have the Vatican as their central headquarters (arguably one of the most beautiful buildings in the world)? The age-old "money is evil" menatlity has been driven into the collective hearts of many like the spikes used in Jesus' crucifixion. This goes directly against Jesus' very first message, detailed in Luke 4:18-21. Jesus has just been handed the Book of Isaiah, and quotes the beginning of Chapter 61...

"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, (and) to preach the acceptable year of the Lord." (emphasis mine)

Notice that according to Jesus, God's first concern was getting rif of poverty; in fact, He's even more concerned with that than with helping people's emotions (and we all know God sent a holy Comforter when Jesus left). Yet, one of the first things the religious world did after the Ascension was make people take a vow of poverty...huh?!

Secondly, there's the Vow of Obedience. Here's the text of it, from a Code of Canon Law:

"The evangelical counsel of obedience, undertaken in a spirit of faith and love in the following of Christ who was obedient even unto death requires a submission of the will to legitimate superiors, who stand in the place of God when they command according to the proper constitutions." (emphasis mine)

Sounds to me like they're adamantly placing themselves between people and God, in effect making themselves out to be God in the eyes of the people. As noted in a prior post, this is contradictory to Luke 4:8, where Jesus tells Satan, "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve".

Finally, there's the vow of chastity. Now, Paul did state his opinion to the Corinthians church, that it was better for people to remain celibate, so they could devote themselves more to God. However, he also noted that because of so much sexual immorality existing in the world, it was better for people to marry if they could not control their desires. He even said "marriage is not a sin", to clarify his point. Yet, nuns and preists are outright commanded by the Catholic doctrine that in order to serve God, they must be vrigins and/or celiabte, without exception. God does say that those who wish to serve Him must abstain from sex outside of marriage, but Catholicism takes it even further by saying "That's not enough; you have to renounce sex completely." Anyone who follows that might want to read Galatians 1:8 again...

"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed."

That's not my fallible, human viewpoint, either - that's straight out of the Bible. Serious stuff, if you ask me.

Catholicism and Homosexuality

I know this a "hot-button" issue, so I'll keep my comments brief. I believe that God considers homosexuality to be a sin, just like fornication or extramarital sex...all sins, none better or worse in his eyes than the other. Mankind has twsited that in many ways, driven by fear, hate, and spiritual corruption. But in the end, the misuse of that standard doesn't warrant its exclusion. in other words, just because some idiots have twisted God's Word to suit themselves and ruined lives with it, that doesn't mean that God's original commands no longer apply. God wants His children to have exciting sex often, in the security of a Godly marriage...that's His plan. The boundaries are placed to protect us from our own tendency to rebel, and the guilt and punishment brought on as a result. But nowadays, the Catholic church reportedly considers homosexuality to be an "alternative lifestyle" (evident by the recent increase in kids being molested by priests, and the church doing little or nothing to stop it).

 

[roaringkitten]

"In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;" Ephesians 1:7


As long as you are not trusting yourselves or even PARTLY in yourselves(water baptism, good works, etc) to save you but ONLY in Christ then you are saved....No where in Scripture does God say salvation is through an "instituted church"....For anyone to teach you this is a false teacher.

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but BY me." John 14:6

 

[roaringkitten]

But nowadays, the Catholic church reportedly considers homosexuality to be an "alternative lifestyle"

Not to hate on people here but to hate on false doctrine taught by the Catholic Church. How can they make a statement like this in light of what Scripture says against homosexuality? Homosexuality is a SIN!

"For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet." Romans 1:26-27

We aren't supposed to hate on them, but we are not to condone their lifestyles! Why does the Catholic church not get it?

 

[NoahsDad]

is anyone besides me, finding it astonishing that the catholic bashing thread has had more than 3000 views?

 

[carpetmanswife]

nope not suprised at all dad.....

 

[NoahsDad]

didnt think so .....hhahahaaahahahahahaa

 

[carpetmanswife]

...........

 

[imoss]

like jousters they circle... the word in hand... who's gonna be the better man
they circle, they lunge, they cut and they paste,
in the face of their foe...both believe in Gods grace,
around and around and around they go
the truth is lost in the circle when spoken by the foe,
At the centre of this circle our Jesus does spin,
his words they do twist anyway to have their view win,
around and around and around he does go
Our Lord and our Savior who we long to know.
when thinking of joining this circle my dear friends
know your jumping in a vortex that surely never ends.

Titus 3 vs 9, 10 & 11

 

[suaso]

Baptisrw: “(1)Mary is the mother of the man Christ Jesus, not the mother of God. (2)Another thing, a smaller issue, is Revelation is singular, not plural. (3)And every Christian believer is a saint. Not just one who does ''miracles''. (4)Do you believe the catechism?” -


1. Actually, there are strong theological reasons Mary is called the Mother of God that I hope I can clearly explain to anyone willing to listen. Some heterodox believers of the early Christian era tended to believe that either Jesus was only human and not divine, or that Jesus was only divine and not human at all.

Nestorius stated that Mary was the Mother of Christ, not the Mother of God. He, and Nestorians in general, believed that Mary only gave birth to the human nature of Christ. This conflicts with the orthodox belief that Christ is one person. My mother gave birth not to my human nature, but to a person: me. My mother gave birth to me. I am a person. Your mother gave birth to you. You are a person. Mary gave birth to Jesus. Jesus is one person: True God and True Man, the Second Person of the Trinity. Jesus is a Divine Person. She gave birth to a Divine person, not just a human nature. If Mary was the mother only of Christ‘s human nature, then what we have is a Christ who is in fact two persons divided. Nothing is divided in Christ. To say Mary was not the Mother of God is to deny that Jesus is God. If it does not deny the divinity of Jesus, it suggests an individual who actually is two individuals in one body…I am not even sure what that would have actually have looked like if that were the case. But we call her the Mother of God because she is the mother of the undivided, divine person we call Jesus Christ who is God. To say she is the Mother of Jesus Christ and not God denies the fact that Jesus and God are the same.

2. I know. Thanks, I just hear most people say “Book of Revelations” a lot so I wanted to stick with the local colloquial. I personally prefer the title “Revelation to John” because it sounds like it would make a great movie title…hehe.

3. I don’t believe every Christian has reached the stage of perfection like Christ. How can man be perfect in this life? The soul is still prone to corruption/sin in life I believe. But I am sure many disagree with that.

4. I believe that what is written in the official Catechism of the Catholic Church - the one actually published by the Catholic Church for instructional purposes - contains the fullness of Catholic teaching. Everything in the Catechism must be believed by Catholics in good standing, and nothing contrary to the Catechism has to be believed in (like the appearance of any person - dead or alive - in any food products as some holy apparition). I understand very much that “What Sister X told me in 5th grade was that girls go to hell for wearing miniskirts!” happens, but what one individual teaches has no bearing on what the Catholic Church teaches. The Catechism is the “playbook” of Catholicism, if you will. In no way does it supersede the Bible, so please don’t even go there.

“The Catholics here we come across say they are Christians, but none know what the gospel is, it's always believe in God, be baptized and on and on. Works based path of salvation in every case, save none.”

This may be a result of poor catechesis, as I said. The idea of being Catholic is that once baptized into the Catholic Church, you are a Catholic. You can’t be un-catholicized. After baptism, if the Catholic never goes to church again, never reads the bible, or anything, they are still Catholic…only we would call them lapsed Catholics. It is like I am an American, but that doesn’t mean I have read the entire constitution, vote in every election, or abide by the laws of the United States. I am still an American, only I am a terrible American citizen.

 

[suaso]

thefightinglamb:
“If the Eucharist was truly Christ, then when Jesus died, why didn't the true followers, divide up his physical body and have a feast?”

Well, for one thing, we believe the “method”, if you will, the model for Communion comes from the Last Supper. We believe he told us how to do it there: (I am paraphrasing this for the sake of brevity) When he took the bread and said “take and eat, this is my body” we believe he was saying that we ought to use bread, and when he did likewise with the cup, we believe he was saying that we ought to use a cup of wine. He never once said anything about pulling him off the cross, dividing his physical body, and then eating it. He would have been eaten, the prophesy that the savior’s body would not have been divided would have been smashed, and I sure don’t know how the digested corpse of Christ was supposed to resurrect on the 3rd day. The idea behind the Incarnation and Resurrection was that he was supposed to take on human nature, redeem it by indwelling within it, allow himself to die at the hands of man, allow himself to remain dead for sufficient time so no one could say he faked it, and then raise his flesh to new life so that we might hope for the same when we die redeemed, all the while with his body intact so no one could say he had been divided. But the explanation that they Apostles were following the norm established at the Last Supper is probably the best, and we use that guideline today.

We bow down because we do not believe the bread is bread anymore. It only looks like bread. It only tastes like bread. It only smells, feels, sounds like bread. But the essence is not the same as the appearance for us. It is not bread to us. It is Jesus. Jesus Christ himself looked like a mere human, smelled like, felt like, and sounded like a mere human being: but his being was more than merely human. He was God. True God and True man. But no one could tell by just looking at him. He looked like any other sinful human, but in essence, in being, in substance, he was different. If anyone can understand the truth of that concept, then they can understand how Catholics thing that what looks like bread is not bread.

“Also, personal or even defined saints are ludicruos... Just discern.... It is because you do not want the Lord Jesus as your Savior/example that you come up with others…”

This is an unfounded assumption. No one has to want Jesus to be their Savior, he is whether anyone likes it or not. I know he is my Savior. I believe he is my Savior. I want him to be my Savior. How could I want anything but what is true? Again, the idea of the saints has been misunderstood. They are not examples we come up with. They are examples that actually exist. They are mere, simple, sinful human beings like you and I who lived lives in the love of Christ better than most people ever will. They are examples that say to us “If this human can do it, than I, a human, can also do it. Christ is always the prime example. But he had something none of us have: Godhood. He was God. Being God, he was like us in all but sin. He could be tempted like us (as the devil tempted him), but unlike us, he could resist sin completely because he is God and God can not sin. The saints we look up to are role models who, despite their being human like me, managed to resist the temptations we all face more efficiently than most of us. They were not perfect in this life. No one is. Only those in heaven are truly perfect because perfection can not be attained while the possibility of sin remains. No one sins in heaven.

“It is only the law the Lord writes in our hearts that has any power, meaning, truth and love.”
Yes, the law is written upon our hearts…it is called a conscience. However, barring someone telling me I should, the law upon my heart does not tell me on what day I should go to church. If the law is written upon our hearts, then why bother with something like the 10 commandments? Apparently people aren’t 100% certain of that law upon their hearts, so they need it spelled out for them. We simply like to really spell it out for people.

“Even the idea of things like priests sacrificing marriage to serve God is off...even if it were true that priests were called to be single men, as it would be a joy to them and something their heart sought all along…”

On this note, priestly celibacy is merely a practice of the Western, Roman Rite Catholic Church. There are other Catholic rites, like the Byzantine Catholic rite (in full communion with Rome, meaning, under the obedience of the Roman Pontiff) that have a married priesthood. Converts from Anglicanism who are Anglican priests and married are allowed to become Catholic priests and still be married. Priestly celibacy is a practice. Every man who feels called to the priesthood and is a member of the Roman Rite of the Catholic Church knows full and well what it will mean for him, including celibacy. No one forces celibacy upon him any more than they force the priesthood on them. It is something they freely choose to agree with.

 

[suaso]

Cephas316 concerning Purgatory:

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The idea behind purgatory is this: “I tell you, you will not get out till you have paid the very last penny” (Luke 12:59). What are we paying for? Are sins are forgiven, so what are we paying for? While we are forgiven, we are still attached to our sinfulness. The things that once seemed good to us but were bad for us still seem good to us. We must be purified of the attachment that makes bad things look good to us. This is what happens in purgatory. If we are still attached to bad things - no matter if we do them - then we are not pure but we are unclean, and “Nothing unclean shall enter heaven” (Rev. 21:27). We are still sinful by nature upon death, but lucky for us, “Not all sin is deadly” (1 John 5:17). While are sins are forgiven, we still have to be punished for them, but not with the death of the soul and hell because Christ has redeemed us from that fate if we choose to follow him. Sort of how in the OT, David was forgiven his sin but was still punished for his sin by God through the death of his son: “The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die” (2 Sam 12:14). Purgatory exacts punishment due to our sins and purifies the soul for heaven.

“1032>> book not in Canon of our (Protestant) Scripture)” That’s because the Jews took that book out of their cannon around AD 70. The Christians up to this time were using the Greek Septuagint which contained the books you all call the Apocrypha, and not being bound by Jewish law, chose not to follow the Jews when they dropped all Greek texts from their OT cannon in AD 70. The reformers later chose to use the Jewish cannon (Luther wanted Revelation and one of James‘ letters out), the RCC had yet to officially establish a cannon because it had never before been a problem, so they finally did at Trent and these books were kept. That is why you don’t use this book.

“By one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified” (Heb. 10:14).”
This refers to the sacrifice of Christ himself: If Christ's one sacrifice were not perpetual, no one in our day would be able to claim it for his salvation, but only those who were actually present at the Crucifixion, which certainly isn't what the Apostles taught. It means because that once sacrifice on the cross is perpetual, you and I both can have salvation despite our not being there on that fateful day.

“It denies the sufficiency of the blood of Jesus to purify all sin (1 John 1:7). “
Yes. Are sins are forgiven by the blood of Christ. We are forgiven. We are not made perfect from the death of Christ, we are forgiven. The blood of Jesus is sufficient for our forgiveness - if we accept it - but we are still human and can sin again. We are still impure in that sense.

“It denies the necessity of the blood of the Lamb to purify and forgive any sin (Heb. 9:22).”
This is almost the same as above. It does not deny the need for Christ our Savior and the forgiveness derived from his blood. It implies the necessity that only through Christ’s forgiveness can we even get to purgatory to be purified before entering heaven.

“It denies that the punishment for any and all sin is eternal death. There is no temporal punishment for sin and no venial sins (Gen. 3:3: Ezek. 18:4: Rom. 6:23).”
Well, then there’s this: “Not all sin is deadly” (1 John 5:17).

“It denies the instantaneous rapture of all believers (1 Thes 4:13-18). Those who must serve various lengths of time to be purged of sin could not be raptured to heaven at the same time.” Perhaps they are purified on the way up. No one knows how long purgatory is, or even where it is. It might not be a place like heaven, but is probably more of a process. Because of this, it is very very possible that these folks are purified in [the state of] purgatory before they are taken all the way “up,” so to speak. It is all within God’s power to have it that way.


“It diverts faith and trust away from the Lord Jesus Christ to a place (2 Cor. 11:34). It robs the Lord Jesus Christ of glory honor and praise (Jude 24).”
Not really. It puts faith in the Lord that he has forgiven us and that because we are forgiven we can go to heaven. The Lord took away from mankind the necessity that because of our sins we all go to hell, he did not take away from us out ability to sin and our ability to enjoy sin. That’s what we are purified from in purgatory. We honor Christ in the wisdom of this great system he has devised for our salvation and purification.

“The above is purely illustrative of the many problems many of us have with the RCC. The Cathecism was drawn up by the current Pope (as far as I know - If I am wrong pleaselet me know) and signed by the former Pope. It is still valid. I know of people who have gone to the Vatican and purchased Indulgences for those in Purgatory! Even after Luther, they are STILL selling those things. ONLY CHRIST CAN FORGIVE SINS!!!!”


Pope John Paul II has promulgated the current standard Catechism. It was published in 1995. It is indeed still valid. Were the people who bought the indulgences shopping at a gift store? They probably sell those as jokes outside the Vatican. When I see proof of it, I’ll believe it. Now it is merely heresay. If there was an indulgence merchant, he was acting against Church teaching, without church approval, the Pope probably had no idea, and it is still wrong. I am willing to bet that it was a joke shop item, and if not, then why don’t you do us all a great big favor and have those people contact the bishop of Rome (The Pope) to put a stop to an abuse they are probably not aware of.

 

[suaso]

Roaringkitten: “(1)For the Pope to declare he can forgive sins is blasphemy! If people would start reading their Bibles instead of believing everything they hear they would come to realize this..…(2)The purgatory is nothing more than a business to make money.......It's nothing more than robbing people”

1. Yes, only Christ forgives sins. The Pope does not forgive sins, he (and any priest) absolves them on behalf of Christ as per Christ’s instruction: “When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained." (John 20 22:23) The only time God breathes on man in scripture is here, and in Genesis when he gives man life. This seems like a rather significant event, does it not?

2. No, the catechism mentions nothing of buying or selling indulgences, or anything having to do with purgatory. Such things are called abuses and are illegal. Those who do them do so illegally and without the permission of the Church. We are still basing this on the assumption that anyone is still actually selling indulgences at all, which we do not have proof of yet. What happened in the past was corrected and was never the norm.

“I witnessed to a catholic a month ago and she told me her priest said the pope had the correct interpretation of the Word. So she was told it wasnt needed to read the Bible”
Who cares what a woman said? Who cares what her priest said? They are not the Church, they are members of the church and are 100% capable of being wrong. I don’t believe them, I believe what the Church teaches