Not By Works
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Thank you for kindly reposting that.
You do realize that the unbelief is the cause of the sins they are convicted of.
It is the sins, that men will be judged for.
Do you postulate that children who don't believe, are condemned of anything before they reach an age of reason?
He was the first, but not the last man obedient to Father.
In fact, it is written..."He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even ashewalked." (1 John 2:6)
So the big question is...do you abide in Him?
You do realize that the unbelief is the cause of the sins they are convicted of.
It is the sins, that men will be judged for.
Do you postulate that children who don't believe, are condemned of anything before they reach an age of reason?
He was the first, but not the last man obedient to Father.
In fact, it is written..."He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even ashewalked." (1 John 2:6)
So the big question is...do you abide in Him?
if only you actually spoke to the point, instead of dodging it. 
can you possibly explain how you didn't sin with your mouth when you said that?
He provided a perfect way to respond - did you take it?
and more importantly, exactly what is it we must believe? what does He mean, "believe that I AM" ?
And this is His command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ
(1 John 3:23)
how is that 'inconsequential' ? (1 John 3:23)
can you possibly explain how you didn't sin with your mouth when you said that?
He provided a perfect way to respond - did you take it?
and more importantly, exactly what is it we must believe? what does He mean, "believe that I AM" ?
What good is belief if it is not acted on?
What sin is evidence of belief?
Belief doesn't matter to the sons of the devil, who will continue on in sin whether God "is" or He "isn't".
It is the sin that brings condemnation.
By belief, we can, as Peter writes, "cease from sin". (1 Peter 4:1)
How will belief profit the workers of iniquity?
I have never seen a verse that prohibits/commands against Sunday worship. Please provide them so we can verify what you say. There are those that tell us to rejoice and give praise continually, which would by necessity include Sundays. You need not show us those
Jesus tells us that if any are following the traditions of man that BREAK THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD they are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9). It is the breaking of God's commandments that is the problem.
If you wish to follow the traditions of man, and your not breaking the commandments of God (Ex 20:8-11) then everything is ok and there is nothing to worry about for you. If your tradition however leads you to SIN by breaking God's commandments (James 2:11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20) then you stand guilty before God and are still in your sins........................
If anyone is living a life of known unrepentant sin are they in a saved state or an unsaved state before God....................
Hebrews 10
26, For IF WE SIN WILLFULLY AFTER WE HAVE RECEIVED A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS, 27, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Acts 17
30, IN TIMES OF IGNORANCE GOD WINKS AT; BUT NOW COMMANDS ALL MEN EVERYWHERE TO REPENT:
31, Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
Sunday worship is a teaching and tradition of men the that has deceived many to forsake the 4th commandment. It is forsaking God's Word to follow the traditions of men that lead to breaking God's commandments leading to SIN that is the problem.
Who do we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Word of God or the teachings and traditions of man?
May God bless you as you seek him through his Word....
Evening LM1
I hope all is well with you sister.
I do agree with you that Jesus does not want us to sin. And any true beleiver will not want to sin.
But I do believe that he also wants us to confess when we sin. If we don’t it affects our relationship with our Father.
When I think about sin I don’t limit it to what some people do with regards to the sins of the flesh as mentioned in Corinthians, Galatians and Ephesians. Yet some see this as perfection or being perfect.
To me to just purely focus on that can lead to what I would call sin management crucifying the flesh and that is ll that matters.
By no means should we neglect that, but to me if we focus on that and only on that then we miss the bigger picture.
If you don’t mind I would like to give my thoughts on being Perfect like our Father in a heaven.
Matthew 5:43-48
Love Your Enemies
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
So the above verses end in perfect.
What is the perfection here?
LOVE AND NOTHING BUT LOVE.
And not just love for our neighbours, afterall it’s easy to love those who love us BUT what about those who hate us, our enemies.
Jesus is now raising the bar.
You think your good by loving those who love you, even sinners do the same.
This is what will set you apart “Love your enemies, do good to them, pray for them, our Father does this the sun rises and the rain falls on the just and the unjust”
To me the perfection Jesus is talking about here has nothing to do with sin management but love.
Afterall you, me and everyone here were enemies of God.
Romans 5:10
10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
He loved us when we were enemies, that’s because he is perfect and to me that is our call to be perfect.
Perfect according to the Greek
g5046. τέλειος teleios; from 5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with 3588) completeness: — of full age, man, perfect.
Thats my thoughts on being perfect.
And before anyone jumps on me I don’t use the above as an excuse not to crucify the flesh, an excuse to sin,with regards to this.
But I do think there is a tendency to just focus on that which can lead to the regards to be walking in love and growing in the love of God.
If we do that then it’s a 2 pronged fork.
As Jesus increases we decrease, our love manifests and as it does we labour, grow into perfection.
Just my simple thoughts
I hope all is well with you sister.
I do agree with you that Jesus does not want us to sin. And any true beleiver will not want to sin.
But I do believe that he also wants us to confess when we sin. If we don’t it affects our relationship with our Father.
When I think about sin I don’t limit it to what some people do with regards to the sins of the flesh as mentioned in Corinthians, Galatians and Ephesians. Yet some see this as perfection or being perfect.
To me to just purely focus on that can lead to what I would call sin management crucifying the flesh and that is ll that matters.
By no means should we neglect that, but to me if we focus on that and only on that then we miss the bigger picture.
If you don’t mind I would like to give my thoughts on being Perfect like our Father in a heaven.
Matthew 5:43-48
Love Your Enemies
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
So the above verses end in perfect.
What is the perfection here?
LOVE AND NOTHING BUT LOVE.
And not just love for our neighbours, afterall it’s easy to love those who love us BUT what about those who hate us, our enemies.
Jesus is now raising the bar.
You think your good by loving those who love you, even sinners do the same.
This is what will set you apart “Love your enemies, do good to them, pray for them, our Father does this the sun rises and the rain falls on the just and the unjust”
To me the perfection Jesus is talking about here has nothing to do with sin management but love.
Afterall you, me and everyone here were enemies of God.
Romans 5:10
10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
He loved us when we were enemies, that’s because he is perfect and to me that is our call to be perfect.
Perfect according to the Greek
g5046. τέλειος teleios; from 5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with 3588) completeness: — of full age, man, perfect.
Thats my thoughts on being perfect.
And before anyone jumps on me I don’t use the above as an excuse not to crucify the flesh, an excuse to sin,with regards to this.
But I do think there is a tendency to just focus on that which can lead to the regards to be walking in love and growing in the love of God.
If we do that then it’s a 2 pronged fork.
As Jesus increases we decrease, our love manifests and as it does we labour, grow into perfection.
Just my simple thoughts
Yes, Jesus Christ is the author and finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:2) and we are exhorted to grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (2 Peter 3:18). Believers are no longer slaves of sin, but slaves of righteousness and only genuine believers obey the Lord.
We believe IN HIM by trusting IN HIM for salvation (John 3:18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31 etc..) and doing what He instructs us afterwards is works and we are saved through faith, not works (Romans 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5 etc..). Doing is a manifestation of our belief, not to be confused with belief itself.
Amen! Yet I'm still hearing some double talk in other statements that you make.
Undeserved indeed and we love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19).
Genuine believers believe the Messiah, yet others, like the unbelieving Jews (Romans 10:1-4) did not believe Him and many people today misinterpret Jesus and believe in law keeping as the means of their salvation, rather than believing/trusting in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation (Romans 1:16; 10:16; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4).
1 John 5:3 - For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. BTY the word "keep" is from the Greek word "tereo."
Strong's Concordance
téreó: to watch over, to guard
Original Word: τηρέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: téreó
Phonetic Spelling: (tay-reh'-o)
Short Definition: I keep, guard, observe
Definition: I keep, guard, observe, watch over.
HELPS Word-studies
5083 tēréō (from tēros, "a guard") – properly, maintain (preserve); (figuratively) spiritually guard (watch), keep intact.
The problem is when men turn keeping the commandments into a legalistic prescription for receiving eternal life and define the word "keep" as sinless, perfect obedience to all of His commandments 100% of the time. Then salvation is no longer based on faith in Christ, but is based on the merits of man's performance/works.
Also, keeping Sabbath day with all it's rules and regulations (Exodus 16:23; 31:12-18; 35:3; Leviticus 23:32; Jeremiah 17:21; 19:30; 23:2-3; Numbers 15:32-36; 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13) was part of a covenant with Israel that is not binding on Christians under the New Covenant. (Colossians 2:16,17) Yet there are those who are obsessed with the Sabbath day and basically turn the gospel into "keep the Sabbath day or perish" which is clearly a "different" gospel.
By cultivating the qualities listed in 2 Peter 1:5-7, Christians can be sure that God has called them and elected them. These fruits will confirm it. Make sure you have been called and elected.
bébaios (an adjective, derived from bainō, "to walk where it is solid") – properly, solid (sure) enough to walk on; hence, firm, unshakable; (figuratively) absolutely dependable, giving guaranteed support (security, surety). To practice these qualities gives evidence of and assurance of salvation, though they are not the basis (or cause) of salvation. They are the effect.
In Proverbs 24:16, we read - For a righteous man may fall seven times and rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity.
We believe IN HIM by trusting IN HIM for salvation (John 3:18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31 etc..) and doing what He instructs us afterwards is works and we are saved through faith, not works (Romans 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5 etc..). Doing is a manifestation of our belief, not to be confused with belief itself.
Amen! Yet I'm still hearing some double talk in other statements that you make.
Undeserved indeed and we love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19).
Genuine believers believe the Messiah, yet others, like the unbelieving Jews (Romans 10:1-4) did not believe Him and many people today misinterpret Jesus and believe in law keeping as the means of their salvation, rather than believing/trusting in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation (Romans 1:16; 10:16; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4).
1 John 5:3 - For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. BTY the word "keep" is from the Greek word "tereo."
Strong's Concordance
téreó: to watch over, to guard
Original Word: τηρέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: téreó
Phonetic Spelling: (tay-reh'-o)
Short Definition: I keep, guard, observe
Definition: I keep, guard, observe, watch over.
HELPS Word-studies
5083 tēréō (from tēros, "a guard") – properly, maintain (preserve); (figuratively) spiritually guard (watch), keep intact.
The problem is when men turn keeping the commandments into a legalistic prescription for receiving eternal life and define the word "keep" as sinless, perfect obedience to all of His commandments 100% of the time. Then salvation is no longer based on faith in Christ, but is based on the merits of man's performance/works.
Also, keeping Sabbath day with all it's rules and regulations (Exodus 16:23; 31:12-18; 35:3; Leviticus 23:32; Jeremiah 17:21; 19:30; 23:2-3; Numbers 15:32-36; 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13) was part of a covenant with Israel that is not binding on Christians under the New Covenant. (Colossians 2:16,17) Yet there are those who are obsessed with the Sabbath day and basically turn the gospel into "keep the Sabbath day or perish" which is clearly a "different" gospel.
By cultivating the qualities listed in 2 Peter 1:5-7, Christians can be sure that God has called them and elected them. These fruits will confirm it. Make sure you have been called and elected.
bébaios (an adjective, derived from bainō, "to walk where it is solid") – properly, solid (sure) enough to walk on; hence, firm, unshakable; (figuratively) absolutely dependable, giving guaranteed support (security, surety). To practice these qualities gives evidence of and assurance of salvation, though they are not the basis (or cause) of salvation. They are the effect.
In Proverbs 24:16, we read - For a righteous man may fall seven times and rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity.
Belief is acted on, and evidenced through faith, which produces good works, which shines a light into the darkness of this world, in a way that glorifies God, at times through confession of sin, rather than hiding them as those who walk in darkness do, because they know their deeds are evil, and they do not wish to be found out.
I will give you the benifit of the doubt this one time. We certainly do teach loving obediance, BUT NOT FOR THE PURPOSE OF EARNING SALVATION, which is a FALSE GOSPEL. Loving Obedience is a natural characteristic of the Born Again Human Spirit that WAS SAVED THE VERY MOMENT Genuine FAITH first entered our heart. Our ONLY MOTIVE FOR STRIVING TO WALK IN OBEDIENCE IS BECAUSE WE LOVE HIM. What is your MOTIVE for Obeying HIM? If it is to earn Salvation, you are still LOST, are not BORN AGAIN, and do not even KNOW HIM.
John 14:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love Me {SAVED, SURE OF IT, NEVER CAN LOSE IT, AND THAT IS 100% BECAUSE OF WHAT JESUS DID ON THE CROSS AND WHAT THE HOLY SPIRIT DID IN OUR HEARTS}, you will keep My commands. {The Born Again Human Spirit by nature LOVES the Lord GOD, because the Holy Spirit poured GOD's LOVE directly into our hearts the moment we genuinely Believed, Rom. 5:5. Striving to obey Him is how we show our LOVE for HIM; it has nothing to do with Salvation or Keeping Salvation.}
John 14:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love Me {SAVED, SURE OF IT, NEVER CAN LOSE IT, AND THAT IS 100% BECAUSE OF WHAT JESUS DID ON THE CROSS AND WHAT THE HOLY SPIRIT DID IN OUR HEARTS}, you will keep My commands. {The Born Again Human Spirit by nature LOVES the Lord GOD, because the Holy Spirit poured GOD's LOVE directly into our hearts the moment we genuinely Believed, Rom. 5:5. Striving to obey Him is how we show our LOVE for HIM; it has nothing to do with Salvation or Keeping Salvation.}
Very nice post BillG
I agree with this. I will just add however that you cannot separate love from obedience to God's Law because it is only through faith that works by love that anyone can be obedient to follow God.
Obedience is the fruit of faith that works by love and love is the fulfilling of God's Law who walk in His Spirit by faith. It is through love that God writes his law in our heart so that we can follow him who loves all (Matthew 22:36-40; Matthew 19:16-20; Romans 13:8-19; James 2:8-12; Romans 8:1-4; Hebrews 8:10-12).
This is why Jesus says; If you love me keep my commandments (John 14:15) because love is the fulfilling of God's Law. Jesus says to all of us; But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you (John 5:42). This is why it is written; truly truly I say unto you unless a man is born of the Spirit and of water he cannot enter the Kingdom of God (John 3:5). Whoever loves is born of God (1 John 4:7) and whosoever is born of God does not practice sin (1 John 3:9). Obedience is the fruit of love that comes by faith.
Faith in the Word of creation gives the sinner the power to walk on water when he bids us come. It is only by abiding in Him who loves all through faith that we can take up our bed and follow him because he bids us come.
May God bless you as you seek him through His Word......
J
Yes and this scripture comes to mind summing up this perfection lunacy quite nicely...
1Peter chp.4 verse 18(KJV)
"And if the righteous scarcely be saved,where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?"
speaking on that one can be righteous particularly self righteous and make things as if there are no ungodly people or that they themselves are sinless and won't admit their faults and so stay divided from God though putting on a front as if this is not so.
And if you think on it who honestly out in the world will admit that they do wrong,or that they are not perfect,or even tell that they don't believe upon Jesus,more often than not even non believers seek Jesus not as a lord and saviour but as a shield to hide behind keeping from having to give up what is wrong and strive to do right,one should decide how they treat Jesus,do you treat him as a shield to hide from God behind or do you put him on as armor and "let him guide you"?
Also do we believe Jesus as perfect or ourselves there is only one answer!?
Can one save one's own soul or is not within our power and be a gift from God that can only be received by accepting his son Jesus!?
Do ye delight more in Jesus or in the world, which is more important to you?(not directed at you magenta just everyone in general)
1Peter chp.4 verse 18(KJV)
"And if the righteous scarcely be saved,where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?"
speaking on that one can be righteous particularly self righteous and make things as if there are no ungodly people or that they themselves are sinless and won't admit their faults and so stay divided from God though putting on a front as if this is not so.
And if you think on it who honestly out in the world will admit that they do wrong,or that they are not perfect,or even tell that they don't believe upon Jesus,more often than not even non believers seek Jesus not as a lord and saviour but as a shield to hide behind keeping from having to give up what is wrong and strive to do right,one should decide how they treat Jesus,do you treat him as a shield to hide from God behind or do you put him on as armor and "let him guide you"?
Also do we believe Jesus as perfect or ourselves there is only one answer!?
Can one save one's own soul or is not within our power and be a gift from God that can only be received by accepting his son Jesus!?
Do ye delight more in Jesus or in the world, which is more important to you?(not directed at you magenta just everyone in general)
Thank you for responding as well.
Not sure if you have read my posts this evening, of which one was to you.
I also said is to possible that unbelief can lead to sin?
The reason I asked this is because you said previously “That unbelief is not a sin”
So that’s why I asked the question “Can unbelief lead to sin”
So to me even today in unbelief post resurrection unbelief can lead to sin.
I am not talking about sins of the flesh here.
I am talking about the things Jesus told us not to and to do.
Like don’t worry about tomorrow.
If we focus on worry about tomorrow, paying bills and don’t trust him to meet our needs then we can take it into our own hands.
Yes I abide in him and him in me.
The Truth is that you any disagree with what abiding means and what it entails.
I don’t want to sin, whether it be in the flesh or lack of love.
Yet you say you do not fall foul of either.
Whats your thoughts on the following
John 15:2-4
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
Whats the reason for pruning.
Just so you know I have nothing against you as a person.
I don’t know you so I can’t judge you.
I just don’t agree with your doctrine.
God bless
Bill
Not sure if you have read my posts this evening, of which one was to you.
I also said is to possible that unbelief can lead to sin?
The reason I asked this is because you said previously “That unbelief is not a sin”
So that’s why I asked the question “Can unbelief lead to sin”
So to me even today in unbelief post resurrection unbelief can lead to sin.
I am not talking about sins of the flesh here.
I am talking about the things Jesus told us not to and to do.
Like don’t worry about tomorrow.
If we focus on worry about tomorrow, paying bills and don’t trust him to meet our needs then we can take it into our own hands.
Yes I abide in him and him in me.
The Truth is that you any disagree with what abiding means and what it entails.
I don’t want to sin, whether it be in the flesh or lack of love.
Yet you say you do not fall foul of either.
Whats your thoughts on the following
John 15:2-4
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
Whats the reason for pruning.
Just so you know I have nothing against you as a person.
I don’t know you so I can’t judge you.
I just don’t agree with your doctrine.
God bless
Bill
J
Hmmm so why is it we read more about you talking about "you" in your posts rather than God/Jesus?
Where as plenty of people here "humble themselves" and "stand firm for God"instead of merely themselves?
where is it written that one is to brag of oneself,or tell people that they can be perfect?
nowhere.
Where as plenty of people here "humble themselves" and "stand firm for God"instead of merely themselves?
where is it written that one is to brag of oneself,or tell people that they can be perfect?
nowhere.
Let's not overlook the obvious, hidden in plain sight, "Rejoice in all circumstances, pray without ceasing, in everything give thanks, for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you." We enter His presence with thanksgiving and remain in His will, in the relationship Jesus had with the Father while He was on earth: left as our inheritance in His will, in the communion of the last supper, "This is my body broken for you." It's the Holy Spirit that enables us to Love as God Loves, "Not of works lest any man should boast." The fact that we cant achieve perfect Love was established, "By the works of the Law no one will be made right with God." The Holy Spirit had to be given and our sins forgiven. Admitting we don't love as God loves and praying for one another." All manner of sin shall be forgiven to man, but rejecting the Holy Spirit shall not be forgiven."
