Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
YOU STILL DO NOT GET IT.

IF WE ARE TRULY BORN AGAIN,


WE WILL CONTINUALLY STRIVE TO OBEY AS AN ACT OF LOVE FOR HIM.

NOT "MUST",

NOT "MUST",

NOT "MUST"!

"MUST", IS A LIE!



"WILL", AS A RESULT OF HOW THE HOLY SPIRIT CHANGED OUR HUMAN SPIRIT.

THE BORN AGAIN HUMAN SPIRIT IS TOTALLY DIFFERENT THAN THE DEAD HUMAN SPIRIT WE WERE BORN WITH. THE DIFFERENCE IS THE HOLY SPIRIT IN US, AND HOW HE CHANGES OUR HUMAN SPIRIT.

DO YOU GET IT NOW?

If the answer is still NO, there is only one reason, and that is because you are not born again yet.


1 Corinthians 2:13-14 (NIV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.


John 14:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15[/SUP]If you love Me, you will keep My commands.

NOT "MUST"!

"MUST", IS A LIE!


He likes to substitute his own cracker jack theology and words....I have a hard time understanding how anyone would listen to a person that compares the sealing of the Holy Spirit to a bowl of left over lasagna that can be unsealed.........as blasphemous as it comes....he really thinks you agree with his dogma...
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
“Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.” 2 Timothy 2:19 NIV

But anyway, both of us agree that the believer must continue to believe or else they are not born again. You believe they will continue to believe because they are born again and are incapable of not believing, while I believe they continue to believe if they choose to continue to believe and as a result of that continued believing remain born again. So there is no difference of belief between us in regard to the fundamental necessity for the believer to believe to the very end or else they are not saved.

It's clear that we both agree that born again people must continue to believe: You believe they must continue to believe because they are born again and God designed them beforehand to be believers and can not alter that predetermined outcome. While I believe they must continue to believe as a matter of their choice to continue to believe, through God's gracious gift of faith, of course, not through any ability of their own to be able to trust in the gospel. Nobody can trust in the gospel without first having God's power of 'knowing' that the gospel really is true.
Make no mistake...he does not believe nor buy your cracker jack theology..........and we all see you conveniently left off most of that verse......like normal...a snippet here a snippet there out of context to hang your cracker jack theology on
 
Last edited:
P

PHart

Guest
There is no need to explain your cracker jack I keep myself saved lie....
God is the one with the saving power. My responsibility is to lay hold of his saving power and keep it through trusting in it.

You don't seem to be able to comprehend the argument. You don't have to agree with it, but it seems you don't even understand it. But I see this a lot in people--the inability to see, let alone agree with, anything outside of their box of doctrine.
 
P

PHart

Guest
Make no mistake...he does not believe nor buy your cracker jack theology.....
You're right, I absolutely do not agree with Calvinisitic predestination. I agree with and believe Biblical predestination.

What we do agree on is that the believer must continue to believe to the very end or they are not saved so as to pass through the coming Judgment safely. He just believes all believers will always believe because they are born again and God created them purposely to only be able to believe. I believe we must continue to believe in order to remain born again and thus pass through the coming Judgment and cleansing of the universe by fire safely.

And we do agree that believing is marked by obedience. VCO and I are more in agreement than you and I are. That's for sure.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
God is the one with the saving power. My responsibility is to lay hold of his saving power and keep it through trusting in it.

You don't seem to be able to comprehend the argument. You don't have to agree with it, but it seems you don't even understand it. But I see this a lot in people--the inability to see, let alone agree with, anything outside of their box of doctrine.

I understand fully that your stance does not pass the SMELL TEST and falls short of right.....you do not keep anything....JESUS keeps you.....and unless you wise up, you will have a bad day coming....
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
You're right, I absolutely do not agree with Calvinisitic predestination. I agree with and believe Biblical predestination.

What we do agree on is that the believer must continue to believe to the very end or they are not saved so as to pass through the coming Judgment safely. He just believes all believers will always believe because they are born again and God created them purposely to only be able to believe. I believe we must continue to believe in order to remain born again and thus pass through the coming Judgment and cleansing of the universe by fire safely.

And we do agree that believing is marked by obedience. VCO and I are more in agreement than you and I are. That's for sure.
That is obvious....you cannot even get salvation right....nor do you understand the sealing of the HOLY SPIRIT and the words UNTO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION.....
 
P

PHart

Guest
I understand fully that your stance does not pass the SMELL TEST and falls short of right.....you do not keep anything....JESUS keeps you.....and unless you wise up, you will have a bad day coming....
He does not keep me unless I want him to. That's the argument you are incapable of seeing, let alone agreeing with. You can't see anything outside of your own little box of indoctrination.
 
P

PHart

Guest
That is obvious....you cannot even get salvation right....nor do you understand the sealing of the HOLY SPIRIT and the words UNTO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION.....
I am sealed until the Day of Redemption and beyond IF I continue to believe. It is you who are incapable of seeing that one can be sealed for the Day of Redemption without it meaning 'unable to be unsealed'. You can't even comprehend that another plausible, reasonable argument can exist outside of your own. But I know this is very typical for Christians. I used to be one of those. Then I humbled myself and realized I don't know all the truth I think I do. I started giving people the Christian grace of listening to them and hearing them out in respect and politeness and humility. That's when I started to learn more things and stopped being a dogmatic jerk.
 
Last edited:
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
He does not keep me unless I want him to. That's the argument you are incapable of seeing, let alone agreeing with. You can't see anything outside of your own little box of indoctrination.

More cracker jack theology..........which comic book or National Enquirer type magazine do you take your half baked left over lasagna dogma from?

WOW....I really thought I have heard it all with the LAW Of Generosity man, but you are topping it with the above........
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
I am sealed until the Day of Redemption and beyond IF I continue to believe. It is you who are incapable of seeing that one can be sealed for the Day of Redemption without it meaning 'unable to be unsealed'. You can't even comprehend that another plausible, reasonable argument can exist outside of your own. But I know this is very typical for Christians. I used to be one of those. Then I humbled myself and realized I don't know all the truth I think I do. I started giving people the Christian grace of listening to them and hearing them out in respect and politeness and humility. That's when I started to learn more things and stopped being a dogmatic jerk.
God's seal cannot be broken.......there is not one verse that states that....so...take your own advice and listen to the truth instead of your lasagna dogma....and for sure I am always open to learning...when it JIVES with scripture...you view does not even come close to being honest with the scriptures and is akin to false as can be......
 
P

PHart

Guest
Good luck, your salvation is up to you.
Have you found that scripture yet that says me being required to trust in what God shows me is true by the power of faith is my trying to save myself? No? Didn't think so.
 
P

PHart

Guest
WOW....I really thought I have heard it all with the LAW Of Generosity man, but you are topping it with the above........
It was required that the Rich Young Ruler obey the law concerning generosity. I quoted it chapter and verse and you still question it? And I'm supposed to be the blind one?
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
It was required that the Rich Young Ruler obey the law concerning generosity. I quoted it chapter and verse and you still question it? And I'm supposed to be the blind one?
You quoted nothing of the sort.........so which commandment is that....the 11th, 12th or 13th

12th Thou shalt be Generous

MAN go to Walmart and buy a cake instead of taking it.....
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
4,615
113
“Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.” 2 Timothy 2:19 NIV

But anyway, both of us agree that the believer must continue to believe or else they are not born again. You believe they will continue to believe because they are born again and are incapable of not believing, while I believe they continue to believe if they choose to continue to believe and as a result of that continued believing remain born again. So there is no difference of belief between us in regard to the fundamental necessity for the believer to believe to the very end or else they are not saved.

It's clear that we both agree that born again people must continue to believe: You believe they must continue to believe because they are born again and God designed them beforehand to be believers and can not alter that predetermined outcome. While I believe they must continue to believe as a matter of their choice to continue to believe, through God's gracious gift of faith, of course, not through any ability of their own to be able to trust in the gospel. Nobody can trust in the gospel without first having God's power of 'knowing' that the gospel really is true.
You are amazing, you still do not get it.

When you use the term MUST, it some you do to be right with God, which is a FALSE DOCTRINE.

When you use the term WILL, it is HE WHO DID SOMETHING TO CHANGE YOUR HUMAN SPIRIT.


THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A WORKS RIGHTEOUSNESS FALSE THEOLOGY,

AND THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO JESUS.

Look at the way Young's Literal Translation words that verse you quoted:

2 Timothy 2:19 (YLT)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] sure, nevertheless, hath the foundation of God stood, having this seal,
`The Lord hath known those who are His,' and `Let him depart from unrighteousness-
-every one who is naming the name of Christ.'


2 Timothy 2:19 (CSBBible)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, bearing this inscription:
The Lord knows those who are his, and let everyone who calls on the name of the Lord turn away from wickedness.


2 Timothy 2:19 (NKJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal:
"The Lord knows those who are His," and,
"Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity."



2 Timothy 2:19 (ESV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] But God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”

When they insert MUST in the verse they change what the the original language said. When it sticks with the original language wording, the LET becomes, something we will WANT TO DO, instead of your HAVE TO DO.


If you want to be Born Again, you will have to come to HIM, mourning your sinning your utter sinfulness, and being willing to Surrender every bit of yourself, out of LOVE FOR HIM, giving HIM the right to change anything and everything in you that HE WANTS TO CHANGE. That includes the pride you have in what you think you do to be right in HIS EYES.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
13,558
113
when i read this, it seems to me that "being His sheep" comes before believing or not believing. in other words according to what Jesus says, there seems to definitely be a cause-and-effect relationship here, and that listening to and following Christ is not the cause, but the effect -- otherwise He would be telling those who do not believe that they are not His sheep because they do not believe, instead of what He is actually saying: that it is because they are not His sheep that they do not believe.

I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in the name of My Father, these bear witness concerning Me. But you do not believe, because you are not from among My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
(John 10:25-27)


y'all think that's accurate? if not, please explain to me why i have this completely backwards.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
4,615
113
It was required that the Rich Young Ruler obey the law concerning generosity. I quoted it chapter and verse and you still question it? And I'm supposed to be the blind one?
You are really amazing. That portion of scripture you are trying to quote, was JESUS POINTING OUT EXACTLY WHAT THE YOUNG RICH MAN'S STUMBLING BLOCK WAS, between him and eternal Salvation of becoming BORN AGAIN. JESUS KNEW EXACTLY WHAT the Youn Rich Man's problem was, AND WHAT HIS RESPONSE WOULD BE. It was not how to be SAVED, but rather what he must be willing to give up, to truly become a born again Believer. You missed the whole point of the lesson, and therefore I suspect you have the same problem as the Young Rich Man.