Cessationism

[Enow]

Originally Posted by beastslayer1970

Show chapter and verse that Satan can heal, when he puts sickness on people?

I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast; they worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?"

Matthew 7:[SUP]13 [/SUP]Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:[SUP] 14 [/SUP]Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.[SUP]15 [/SUP]Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves............[SUP]21 [/SUP]Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.[SUP]22 [/SUP]Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?[SUP]23 [/SUP]And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Matthew 24:[SUP]24[/SUP]For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

2 Thessalonians 2:[SUP]9 [/SUP]Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

 

[Dino246]

They did not exhort gifts as if that was the only means of edification.

You're using a straw man argument here. Who claims that tongues is the "only means of edification"? Your implied assertion is invalid.

Tongue speakers point to 1 Corinthians 14th chapter in taking Paul's words out of context as if he was trying to prove tongues was better than prophecy.

I've seen more than enough of this corrupt misquoting from you. Until you can quote a so-called "tongue speaker" who has claimed that tongues is better than prophecy, I will consider your integrity questionable.

 

[Innerfire89]

sigh

so wisdom has ceased then, has it? that may explain quite a bit

knowledge belongs to a bygone era. I gotta say that sometimes I believe that may be so

can we please have some new scripture that actually defines cessationism as a viable doctrine of man?

personally, I think this description of the doctrine of man is what I believe it to be:

I will not blabber in tongues. I am not going to make a fool of myself. what if I loose control? (if you do, it is you and not the Holy Spirit)

I don't want to be one of those tongues talkers and have people point me out

I understand all there is to know, I don't have to add to it

and more of the same

remember, that is just my opinion on the man made doctrine of cessationism...which often only means tongues and not teaching etc because of course, that is a dignified office and demands respect and puts people under your authority. and you get to demand they listen to you.

ugly and undignified IMO, but that may just be me

I better go let myself have it now...LOL!

You're arguing with Scripture, not me. What the knowledge in the verse is is not basic intelligence, it's more like insight.

Now you hint that cessationist are stupid. Is Christ like?

The doctrine come from scriptural study, I can say that any doctrine is of man, including the ones you adhere to. Have you never been thought anything by a pastor? They're man, no?

How many so called prophets demand authority over their listeners? How many times has it been said that they are unquestionable? How many people have been brainwashed into emptying their wallets because some charlitan did a magic trick?

 

[Innerfire89]

Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruits of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self control; against such there is no law.

You would expect that people who claim to be Spirit filled Christians, who expperince the gifts they say they do you be a shining example of these fruits. Yet you find arrogance, belittling, harshness, and volatile emotions with most.

 

[JairCrawford]

Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruits of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self control; against such there is no law.

You would expect that people who claim to be Spirit filled Christians, who expperince the gifts they say they do you be a shining example of these fruits. Yet you find arrogance, belittling, harshness, and volatile emotions with most.

I've seen it on both sides of the debate. It shows us the fallibility of humanity. It should be no surprise to us.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

You're arguing with Scripture, not me. What the knowledge in the verse is is not basic intelligence, it's more like insight.

Now you hint that cessationist are stupid. Is Christ like?

The doctrine come from scriptural study, I can say that any doctrine is of man, including the ones you adhere to. Have you never been thought anything by a pastor? They're man, no?

How many so called prophets demand authority over their listeners? How many times has it been said that they are unquestionable? How many people have been brainwashed into emptying their wallets because some charlitan did a magic trick?

well, there is another common response from another cessationist.

arguing with scripture. interesting when cessationists basically discount scripture

I was not making personal remarks, but listing excuses I have actually heard from those who refuse the gifts they think are not for today


Oh I know what knowledge is and it is right in there with the tongues you say have ceased. I guess you don't see the irony there

and then we have the classic but still offered non sequitur "is that Christ like?

Originally Posted by Innerfire89

Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruits of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self control; against such there is no law.


You would expect that people who claim to be Spirit filled Christians, who expperince the gifts they say they do you be a shining example of these fruits. Yet you find arrogance, belittling, harshness, and volatile emotions with most.

LOL!...you are confused between the gifts of the Spirit and the fruit of the Holy Spirit

IMO, resorting to this type of statement indicates you have nothing biblical with which to state your case

ps...I have not even posted to you that I remember, so fake news...I was never 'arguing with you at all'

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Oh my... It would appear I have opened a can of worms. There's no way I'm going to be able to reply to all of these. Lol

Scripture says that the gifts will cease when that which is perfect comes. That sounds very much to me like Jesus, and Heaven. Forgive me if I am being too bold but to apply this verse to scripture is almost akin to elevating scripture to godlike status and making the Bible an idol.

And what about the healings and miracles (the real ones not the fake ones) that actually do take place today? Don't tell me it's the devil, as if he's the only one that can demonstrate power anymore and God cannot?

Again, I apologize if I am being a bit too bold but I didn't expect this discussion to get so heated. Lol

it's a very old can around these here places

this is actually tame

I leave when the name calling starts

buckle your seatbelt, remain polite (although the opposite will be stated by the other side) and just keep on keeping on

 

[DJ2]

The debate on if the age of the miraculous has ended is not a debate between scriptures but tangible, recordable and observable facts and events. Attempting to prove the existence of ongoing events with scripture is absurd to say the least. The miraculous does not need to be defended or even debated, the miraculous proves itself.

These debates are both childish and futile. The only reason these debates even exist is because of the blind faith of the pentecostal movement. It is this blind faith that makes them susceptible to the appalling excesses of their theology's leadership. Without a reasonable basis for their acceptance of such claims, they are tossed to and fro by the latest sign or wonder.

To claim the miraculous age of the New Testament is still ongoing is a claim (if true) that would need no defense.

To claim that we are still living in that same age of the miraculous is a mockery of what was once and will be again. When the miraculous returns those who are currently labeling the mundane as acts of God will be called to account.

 

[DJ2]

Oh my... It would appear I have opened a can of worms. There's no way I'm going to be able to reply to all of these. Lol

Scripture says that the gifts will cease when that which is perfect comes. That sounds very much to me like Jesus, and Heaven. Forgive me if I am being too bold but to apply this verse to scripture is almost akin to elevating scripture to godlike status and making the Bible an idol.

And what about the healings and miracles (the real ones not the fake ones) that actually do take place today? Don't tell me it's the devil, as if he's the only one that can demonstrate power anymore and God cannot?

Again, I apologize if I am being a bit too bold but I didn't expect this discussion to get so heated. Lol

Your conclusion is forced. If Paul meant to say when Jesus returns as the "perfect" why not just write it that way?

 

[JairCrawford]

Why not just say that it will end when scripture is complete?

Arguing from a logical/reasoning standpoint on the topic of the miraculous is futile as well. Even Jesus eluded to this. It requires faith.

 

[Dino246]

The debate on if the age of the miraculous has ended is not a debate between scriptures but tangible, recordable and observable facts and events.

Logical fallacy. Assumption of unknowable "facts".

 

[DJ2]

Logical fallacy. Assumption of unknowable "facts".

Expecting physical evidence from physical events is a logical fallacy? The only logical fallacy is the Ad Ignorantum used to defend this movement.

Could you explain what is so unknowable about the "facts"?

Someone claims that the manna from heaven never ceased, would expecting physical evidence of the event be a logical fallacy?

 

[DJ2]

Why not just say that it will end when scripture is complete?

Arguing from a logical/reasoning standpoint on the topic of the miraculous is futile as well. Even Jesus eluded to this. It requires faith.

Paul was well aware that Jesus was to return but he had no understanding of what "perfect" thing would replace the miraculous as an authority on the gospel.

The truly miraculous never requires faith, it brings faith. (John 2:11 & Matthew 9:3-8) Only the mundane acts labeled today as miracles need faith to be accepted.

 

[Dino246]

Expecting physical evidence from physical events is a logical fallacy?

Could you explain what is so unknowable about the "facts"?

What is so unknowable to you is anything that doesn't happen right in front of your eyes. You reject every other form of evidence.

Your error is assuming that what you don't see doesn't happen. The logical fallacy is assuming that what you see is all that happens. You cannot know everything that happens, and as you are so unwilling even to look into claims and testimonies, your knowledge is further limited. I leave you to your unbelief and willful ignorance.

 

[Innerfire89]

well, there is another common response from another cessationist.

arguing with scripture. interesting when cessationists basically discount scripture

I was not making personal remarks, but listing excuses I have actually heard from those who refuse the gifts they think are not for today


Oh I know what knowledge is and it is right in there with the tongues you say have ceased. I guess you don't see the irony there

and then we have the classic but still offered non sequitur "is that Christ like?



LOL!...you are confused between the gifts of the Spirit and the fruit of the Holy Spirit

IMO, resorting to this type of statement indicates you have nothing biblical with which to state your case

ps...I have not even posted to you that I remember, so fake news...I was never 'arguing with you at all'

Comment number 32.
I'm not confused in the least bit. If you have the gifts of the Spirit than why not the fruits?

 

[shrume]

..If you have the gifts of the Spirit than why not the fruits?

At times that is a valid question for people on both sides of the argument.

Whether you're a charismatic or a cessationist, a person's religious convictions are deeply personal, and nobody likes to be told what they believe is wrong. When challenged, it's too easy to lash out and say things you would probably never say in person.

 

[heartofdavid]

do you not see how disingenuous you are being by refusing to address the Apostles praying for people in Syria to receive the infilling of the Holy Spirit?

this is no longer an honest exchange because you refuse to deal with scripture that refutes your position

it would also be unwise to assume anything and actually quite unfair when I have never moved from my stance


[/QUOTE]

One more time...dear sister,



Read that in the quote in reference to Acts 8 that they ahd not received the Holy Spirit yet for why Peter & John went down there to lay hands on them so that they would.

Then you made a reference to Simon while Peter & John were doing that laying on of hands, and you claimed that was a second infilling.



There can be no second infilling if they never had the Holy Spirit for why Peter & John was laying hands on them to receive.



I can accept that.

To the tongue speakers out there; you didn't bother to correct her. A non-tongue speaker had to show how she was opposing herself. And she still may not see how she was opposing herself. You may not see how she was opposing herself.

I leave her to God then, but this thread is about Cessationism as the OP is inquiring why any one would believe that.

I just hope newbies out there know that they do not need tongues to pray to God by and they know Paul's warning to not seek to receive another Jesus or another Holy Spirit or another gospel to receive for that is not of Him, but another gospel.

I'd rather hear a donkey bray in a tin barn at midnight than the read your anti-Holy Spirit rants.

 

[Waggles]

Cessationism
Where did this doctrine come from?
Is there any scripture to back it up? I have yet to find any.
Why is cessationism versus continuation such a dividing factor in the church today?

16 These are murmurers, complainers, leading lives according to their lusts.
And their mouth speaks proud things, admiring faces for the sake of gain.
17 But you, beloved, remember the words spoken before by the apostles of our
Lord Jesus Christ,
18 because they told you that at the last time there will be mockers according to their lusts,
leading ungodly lives.
19 These are those setting themselves apart, animal-like ones,
not having the Spirit.
20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith,
praying in the Holy Spirit,
21 keep yourselves in the love of God, eagerly awaiting the mercy of our
Lord Jesus Christ to everlasting life.
Jude 1: MKJV

 

[Bladerunner]

That is very easily resolved. Paul was writing while the Apostolic Age was in full force. But before the end of the first century, "they shall" became "they have". Read the writings of the Apostolic Fathers.

Take the example of prophecies. The book of Revelation was written around 90 AD, and the last chapter of that book makes it crystal clear that there would be no more prophecies.

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Similarly supernatural tongues and supernatural knowledge (apart from the written Word of God) ceased.

Most scholars look to 95-96AD as to when Revelation was written. It was the time of Emperor Domitian.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I do not want to put God in a box. If the miraculous occurs that's awesome!

But this brother brings up a very valid point. Why would those with these "gifts" of healing and bringing people back from the dead not be done in a public way as to bring Glory to God, and perhaps bring many to Christ as was done by the early Church?

A person told me a story that A. A. Allen said once. He was going by a funeral one day and he decided to walk in and get the man out of the coffin and placed him against the wall. He said the corpse went 'thud' as it hit the floor. So, he picked him back up, leaned him against the wall, dusted him off, and then brought him back to life.

And ppl eat this lunacy and goonacy up like it's a melted marshmallow. It amazes me that when these stories are told, then one telling it, that event happen 1,000's of miles from where they are telling it.