Grace alone or grace plus works?

[John146]

Only God Knows.

But if they never exhibit the fruit of the Spirit then it is pretty safe to assume that they are not saved.

Here's the thing...the faith that justifies us, is not even our faith, but the faith of Jesus Christ. The faith of Jesus Christ justifies the believer and the evidence of that faith is the cross.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

 

[DJ2]

Through His labor of love .Grace alone through Christ's work of faith alone

The OP only gives two options.

Since your "Grace alone through Christ's work of faith alone" is not one of them, I assume you did not vote either.

 

[DJ2]

Here's the thing...the faith that justifies us, is not even our faith, but the faith of Jesus Christ. The faith of Jesus Christ justifies the believer and the evidence of that faith is the cross.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

You are pushing either universal reconciliation or predestination. Which one is it?

 

[Snoozy]

You are pushing either universal reconciliation or predestination. Which one is it?

predestination is in the bible mentioned many times so i sure am pushing it!

 

[mailmandan]

predestination is in the bible mentioned many times so i sure am pushing it!

Romans 8:29 - For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

 

[garee]

How can salvation be by grace alone when faith is needed? Alone means alone.

When Jesus was asked by the people, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" Jesus did not correct them but instead answered, "This is the work of God, that you believe whom He has sent".

Jesus spoke mostly of faith and obedience. Jesus never speaks of grace alone or even uses the word "grace" in His ministry.

Grace has no benefit to the one without faith. God's grace if not properly accepted is like a uncashed check, lost potential.

Jesus is God's offer of grace, refuse to properly accept the offer at your own risk.

Hence, grace alone is a misnomer.

No faith, no work, no work, no grace.

Grace is the reward of Christ's work of faith as his labor of love needed to pay the wage of eternal damnation. No work of His faith no grace. Grace is accompanied by his work which he had planed in advance by faith (believing) it would satisfy the just demands of His law .

They work together as three no separation in between any. Faith, work and the reward grace. He is the rewarded as the one who pays the wage (a penny) all receive the same wage.

 

[Grandpa]

Here's the thing...the faith that justifies us, is not even our faith, but the faith of Jesus Christ. The faith of Jesus Christ justifies the believer and the evidence of that faith is the cross.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

That's a really weird philosophy. I wonder how you came by it?

Is this verse worded incorrectly?;
John 3:16 [FONT=&quot]For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

[/FONT]Should it have been re-worded to say that whosoever Christ believes in should not perish, but have everlasting life???

 

[garee]

The OP only gives two options.

Since your "Grace alone through Christ's work of faith alone" is not one of them, I assume you did not vote either.

I did vote Salvation Is by Grace alone through faith.

Faith alone without someone working it out is dead

It would be like our faithful Creator desiring something would appear as a plan of his faith, the unseen, and not pronouncing His intentions..let there be ....nothing would occur. Dead faith, dead works .

Faith is a work that he works in us to both will and do His good pleasure. (imputed righteousness ) The same kind of work of his faith shown in James 2 with Abraham and Rehab . Making his faith perfect that he imputes to us.Abraham was saved by works. They simply were not of his own self or he would have something to boast in. He could never make him self perfect

 

[garee]

That's a really weird philosophy. I wonder how you came by it?

Is this verse worded incorrectly?;
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Should it have been re-worded to say that whosoever Christ believes in should not perish, but have everlasting life???

Can we have the faith of Christ's work in respect to our own selves or would that blasphem the holy name by which we are called heavenward.

Jam 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of(belonging to) our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

Jam 2:7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?

Whose work of faith was imputed to Abraham and Rehab at the end of the chapter. ? Do we attribute it to them or would that blaspheme the the holy name by which we are called?

 

[beastslayer1970]

You are pushing either universal reconciliation or predestination. Which one is it?

Notice the verse he put up and the KJB translation of 2 very important bold & underlined words

Gal 2:16
KJB:

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Almost all other translations correctly render the passage, I will use the ESV and NASB. Check the bold & underlined words

Gal 2:16
ESV

[SUP]16 [/SUP]yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.


Gal 2:16
NASB

[SUP]16 [/SUP]nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

John146 is a KJ onylist and so are several others. This makes me wonder how many on this site believe saving faith is nothing you have inside of you, but Jesus Christs own perosnal faith.

There seem to be 3 doctrines floating on this forum regarding salvation and not one of them really tells us what true saving faith is.

A) Is saving faith a gift God placed inside of you and is activated when God chooses and elects you?

B) Is saving faith something you were already given that is activated when the Holy Spirit convicts you of sin and the need for a savior and you personally chose to believe in what Jesus did for you?

C) Is saving faith something you never have and Jesus own perosnal faith becomes your free gift of saving faith, when personally chose to believe in what Jesus did for you?

Until someone can define what saving faith really, I will pass on the 3 threads actually discussing the same story.

 

[DJ2]

I did vote Salvation Is by Grace alone through faith.

Faith alone without someone working it out is dead

It would be like our faithful Creator desiring something would appear as a plan of his faith, the unseen, and not pronouncing His intentions..let there be ....nothing would occur. Dead faith, dead works .

Faith is a work that he works in us to both will and do His good pleasure. (imputed righteousness ) The same kind of work of his faith shown in James 2 with Abraham and Rehab . Making his faith perfect that he imputes to us.Abraham was saved by works. They simply were not of his own self or he would have something to boast in. He could never make him self perfect

My error. I was focusing on the title of the poll and not the individual options.

 

[DJ2]

predestination is in the bible mentioned many times so i sure am pushing it!

Was not sure since the universal reconciliation groups use the same verses as the predestination groups.

 

[garee]

Gal 2:16
KJB:

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Almost all other translations correctly render the passage, I will use the ESV and NASB. Check the bold & underlined words

Gal 2:16
ESV

[SUP]16 [/SUP]yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

The word in is a improper translation .It comes from some they say God does not need faith .

Faith is a two way street. The word of is used in opposition to in . Of belonging to Christ. It is the result of Him working in us, our amen, signaling we heard him .
By would represent through in the other translation. We cannot have faith in Christ unless we are first given the faith of Him.

What if someone remained in unbelief, no faith? Shall their denial of God make the faith of Christ as the work of God without effect .(to effect is to work.)

Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

It would seem obvious they had no faith in God.

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

 

[PHart]

I think the key is to understand the difference between the definition of 'faith' in Hebrews 11:1 and the believing/obedience that we then do as a result of God's supernatural gift of 'knowing' (the gift of faith).

I know this can be confusing because even the Bible interchanges the terms 'faith' and 'believing'. One is a noun, the other is a verb.

Lets try to make sense of the madness and confusion

Faith means fidelity, faithfulness, steadfastness, firmness, trust. All of that.

For by grace (thats something God grants) are ye saved, through faith (this is our part) not of works (like the pharisees were claiming in Acts 15:1 works of the law dont justify but faith working by love) lest any man should boast. (Genuine repentance does not cause boasting, but rather humbles us before God).

Disobedience and unbelief are the same thing.
Heb 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
Heb 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Obedience and belief are the same thing.
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Read Hebrews 11 for a full break down of what faith is in action.

During the times of Noah when the world was in complete wickedness as it is prophecied to be before the Lord returns, Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

There is the grace part, and here is Noah's faith:

Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

The example here is clear, Noah was saved by grace, through faith. Thats how the Hebrews understood it, had this happened in 2017 McDriveThrough christianity we would say we're not gonna build no boat, thats works and salvation is not of works, we're just gonna believe. But in reality, not building the boat exhibits LACK OF FAITH!
Read the entire chapter, its filled with similar examples. Another example:

Num 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

God's grace is being shown above, then by faith people who look at it, shall live. Thats how it happened to Israelites, but had this happened in 2017 McDriveThrough christianity, we would refuse to look at it because we're saved by grace and if we look at it, its works and we're not saved by works. Yet again in this example not looking at the serpent exhibits LACK OF FAITH!

 

[Depleted]

Romans 8:29 - For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Little sad you didn't include Romans 8:28.

(See my signy for that verse. )

 

[mailmandan]

Little sad you didn't include Romans 8:28.

(See my signy for that verse. )

I was focusing on the words “predestined” because that’s what was mentioned in the post I was responding to. Feel free to include verse 28 and the entire chapter.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

How can salvation be by grace alone when faith is needed? Alone means alone.

When Jesus was asked by the people, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" Jesus did not correct them but instead answered, "This is the work of God, that you believe whom He has sent".

Jesus spoke mostly of faith and obedience. Jesus never speaks of grace alone or even uses the word "grace" in His ministry.

Grace has no benefit to the one without faith. God's grace if not properly accepted is like a uncashed check, lost potential.

Jesus is God's offer of grace, refuse to properly accept the offer at your own risk.

Hence, grace alone is a misnomer.

again, Faith is not something you DO, is it something you have.

And it is not your own. Unless you trust in your own.

Your fighting a losing battle. Which can not be won, because you want people to place faith in their own works. Not in the work of Christ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are pushing either universal reconciliation or predestination. Which one is it?

By this reply I think it is pretty obvious. Like another member (Phart) he is fighting calvanism here. So until they open their eyes to the fact noto everyone who believes in faith alone holds to the Calvinistic view of predestination. They will never see the truth of what others believe.

 

[John146]

That's a really weird philosophy. I wonder how you came by it?

Is this verse worded incorrectly?;
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Should it have been re-worded to say that whosoever Christ believes in should not perish, but have everlasting life???

Let's go to more Scripture shall we:

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

The faith of Christ is imputed to the believer. The faith of Jesus Christ justifies the believer. Our individual faith is lived out in our obedience. Christ's faith was lived out through His obedience unto death, even the death of the cross.

There's a huge difference between the faith of Christ and faith in Christ.

 

[John146]

The word in is a improper translation .It comes from some they say God does not need faith .

Faith is a two way street. The word of is used in opposition to in . Of belonging to Christ. It is the result of Him working in us, our amen, signaling we heard him .
By would represent through in the other translation. We cannot have faith in Christ unless we are first given the faith of Him.

What if someone remained in unbelief, no faith? Shall their denial of God make the faith of Christ as the work of God without effect .(to effect is to work.)

Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

It would seem obvious they had no faith in God.

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Throw away all those new versions that have been altered and mistranslated and is the major cause of the Laodicean Church Age we experience today. The faith of Jesus Christ is a precious doctrine to be understood for the believer. It puts the work all on the Lord Jesus Christ. All that is needed is belief in the finish work of the cross.