Grace alone or grace plus works?

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Is salvation by Grace alone?

  • Salvation Is by Grace alone through faith.

    Votes: 42 87.5%
  • Salvation Is by Grace through faith plus works

    Votes: 6 12.5%

  • Total voters
    48
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
My post's aren't pointing to you Billy,

They are pointing to the Elephant in the Room that no one wants to talk about.

There is a great religion that Jesus said would "Come in His Name" preaching that He is truly the Son of God, that will preach lies about God.

Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive(Tell lies to) you.5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.(Convince many to believe a lie)

This great religion was foretold in the Gospel of Christ, where the Righteousness of God and the Wrath of God are revealed. (Old Testament)

Jer. 23:16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD.

17 They say still unto them that despise me,(Transgress the Commandments of God by their own traditions) The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart,(Follow an image of God after the likeness of man) No evil shall come upon you.

1 Sam 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

23For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

This is exactly what happened to the Mainstream Preachers of Paul's time.

They rejected God's Word and created their own. Jesus rejected them for this behavior.

Today we have a great "Christian" religion that transgresses the commandments of God by their own traditions.

Yes, they do it in Christ's Name as prophesied, but they do it just the same.

This great religion has created images of God after the likeness of man, created "Feasts unto the Lord" in worship to this God both are in direct rebellion to God's Words and instruction in the first and greatest commandment.

They teach God's Commandments, including His Sabbath, are not for the Christian, when Jesus specifically taught that the Sabbath was made for man.

They teach the New Covenant is the elimination of God's Instructions given in the Gospel of Christ as Paul calls it. But there is no evidence that the New Covenant had anything to do with re-defining sin.

Todays mainstream preachers teach that the mainstream church of Christ's time were trying to earn Salvation by keeping God's Laws. Paul refutes this teaching in the 2nd half of Romans 1 just for starters. There is nowhere in the Bible that preaches the Mainstream preachers of Christ's time were trying to earn Salvation by obeying God. Yet "many" preach this lie anyway.

Why, because they have been given over to their rebellious flesh to believe a lie.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Paul says the same thing in 2 Thes. 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them,
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Do you believe these disciples that walked away became Atheists? Or did they start their own religion where it was not needful to "DO ANYTHING" for repentance?


Phil. 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

But nope, this scripture gets thrown out with the "Bring Works Worthy of repentance" teaching.

I could go on and on and on exposing man made doctrines and traditions with God's Word which is sharper that a two edged sword.


12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


The Word of God cut's through all the BS Billy. All of it. Even the lies we have sheltered in our own minds.

You can try and make the case that I omit scriptures on purpose, but it will not stick because it isn't true.

I am sorry if you are offended by these truths. I was offended years ago by the teachings of the Christ as well. Everybody is offended when they are told to "repent".

I want to talk about this Elephant in the Room because it tricks so many people into rejecting God's Words and accepting man's doctrines and traditions in the name of Jesus.

If this insults you then I say Good. Why does it insult you? Is it because MCC doesn't create images of God after the likeness of man? No, we both know that they do. Is it because the MCC didn't create High Days and their own Sabbaths? No, because we both know this is true. If you are insulted because you know these things are true, maybe you will "turn to God" and Hid Righteousness as Jesus instructs, and let HIM lead you to all truth.

Rom. 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?


5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

We are all born into a religion that transgresses the Commandments of God by their traditions. Jesus was, Peter was, Caleb was, Abraham and Noah, even righteous Abel who was killed by his "Christian" brother Cain.

We all have to decide or as Paul says in his letter regarding the weak in faith, " be convinced in our own mind", whether to follow the Path Jesus walked as instructed which includes God's Righteous Commandments, or if we take the easy Path that everybody else is on and adhere to the traditions and doctrines of men.

Again I will ask. Who there is preaching that we can disobey Gods laws?

You seem to be preaching against imaginary people.

And again, What makes you think you are right.

Everyone transgresses the law. If we did not. One could say we would be sinless. So why do you insist on judging others. When you can not live up to the standard yourself?
 
Nov 6, 2017
674
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My post's aren't pointing to you Billy,

They are pointing to the Elephant in the Room that no one wants to talk about.

There is a great religion that Jesus said would "Come in His Name" preaching that He is truly the Son of God, that will preach lies about God.

Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive(Tell lies to) you.5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.(Convince many to believe a lie)

This great religion was foretold in the Gospel of Christ, where the Righteousness of God and the Wrath of God are revealed. (Old Testament)

Jer. 23:16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD.

17 They say still unto them that despise me,(Transgress the Commandments of God by their own traditions) The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart,(Follow an image of God after the likeness of man) No evil shall come upon you.

1 Sam 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

23For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

This is exactly what happened to the Mainstream Preachers of Paul's time.

They rejected God's Word and created their own. Jesus rejected them for this behavior.

Today we have a great "Christian" religion that transgresses the commandments of God by their own traditions.

Yes, they do it in Christ's Name as prophesied, but they do it just the same.

This great religion has created images of God after the likeness of man, created "Feasts unto the Lord" in worship to this God both are in direct rebellion to God's Words and instruction in the first and greatest commandment.

They teach God's Commandments, including His Sabbath, are not for the Christian, when Jesus specifically taught that the Sabbath was made for man.

They teach the New Covenant is the elimination of God's Instructions given in the Gospel of Christ as Paul calls it. But there is no evidence that the New Covenant had anything to do with re-defining sin.

Todays mainstream preachers teach that the mainstream church of Christ's time were trying to earn Salvation by keeping God's Laws. Paul refutes this teaching in the 2nd half of Romans 1 just for starters. There is nowhere in the Bible that preaches the Mainstream preachers of Christ's time were trying to earn Salvation by obeying God. Yet "many" preach this lie anyway.

Why, because they have been given over to their rebellious flesh to believe a lie.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Paul says the same thing in 2 Thes. 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them,
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Do you believe these disciples that walked away became Atheists? Or did they start their own religion where it was not needful to "DO ANYTHING" for repentance?


Phil. 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

But nope, this scripture gets thrown out with the "Bring Works Worthy of repentance" teaching.

I could go on and on and on exposing man made doctrines and traditions with God's Word which is sharper that a two edged sword.


12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


The Word of God cut's through all the BS Billy. All of it. Even the lies we have sheltered in our own minds.

You can try and make the case that I omit scriptures on purpose, but it will not stick because it isn't true.

I am sorry if you are offended by these truths. I was offended years ago by the teachings of the Christ as well. Everybody is offended when they are told to "repent".

I want to talk about this Elephant in the Room because it tricks so many people into rejecting God's Words and accepting man's doctrines and traditions in the name of Jesus.

If this insults you then I say Good. Why does it insult you? Is it because MCC doesn't create images of God after the likeness of man? No, we both know that they do. Is it because the MCC didn't create High Days and their own Sabbaths? No, because we both know this is true. If you are insulted because you know these things are true, maybe you will "turn to God" and Hid Righteousness as Jesus instructs, and let HIM lead you to all truth.

Rom. 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?


5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

We are all born into a religion that transgresses the Commandments of God by their traditions. Jesus was, Peter was, Caleb was, Abraham and Noah, even righteous Abel who was killed by his "Christian" brother Cain.

We all have to decide or as Paul says in his letter regarding the weak in faith, " be convinced in our own mind", whether to follow the Path Jesus walked as instructed which includes God's Righteous Commandments, or if we take the easy Path that everybody else is on and adhere to the traditions and doctrines of men.
Did the law save you or Jesus?

Do you adhere to commandments as an expression of love and worship to God for Jesus saving you or in an attmept to be sanctified and made righteous?
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
Did the law save you or Jesus?

Do you adhere to commandments as an expression of love and worship to God for Jesus saving you or in an attmept to be sanctified and made righteous?
I adhere to the Commandments of God over the traditions of man because Jesus instructed me to do so, and I believe in Jesus and trust His Words. All of His Words including His Words in the Old Testament before He became a man, and including all the warnings about preachers, who come in His Name to preach falsehoods about Him.
 
Nov 6, 2017
674
12
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I adhere to the Commandments of God over the traditions of man because Jesus instructed me to do so, and I believe in Jesus and trust His Words. All of His Words including His Words in the Old Testament before He became a man, and including all the warnings about preachers, who come in His Name to preach falsehoods about Him.
This does not answer the question, Does obeying commands of the law save you or Jesus?
 
Dec 9, 2011
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If It were possible to obey the Ten Commandments then JESUS would not have had to come to earth but It’s NOT possible and,since no one could be righteous without JESUS then all credit goes to GOD for making a way.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,905
4,348
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If It were possible to obey the Ten Commandments then JESUS would not have had to come to earth but It’s NOT possible and,since no one could be righteous without JESUS then all credit goes to GOD for making a way.
Very true,
But alas there are those who say Jesus came to earth to show us and tell us to obey the commandment's.
And as s result we can and should and will. If we don't then we are not genuine believers.

However they never seem to address the fact that Jesus hung on that cross and the reasons why.
I have never seen a valid argument as to why.
 
Jul 23, 2017
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everyone who voted grace plus works i want to know how you get through ephesians 2:8-9? explain it to me
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
This does not answer the question, Does obeying commands of the law save you or Jesus?
Rom. 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
Very true,
But alas there are those who say Jesus came to earth to show us and tell us to obey the commandment's.
And as s result we can and should and will. If we don't then we are not genuine believers.

However they never seem to address the fact that Jesus hung on that cross and the reasons why.
I have never seen a valid argument as to why.
I haven't seen any of what you are saying on this forum. I have seen "many" that reject God's Word in order to justify some church traditions and doctrines of man. Not sure the Bible teaches Jesus died so those who preach falsehoods about Him will live forever.

No one seem to want to have this discussion.
 
Jul 23, 2017
879
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Rom. 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
first answer me how do u get around ephesians 2:8-9 if salvation is by faith AND works?

second u quote romans 2:13 which is again not rightly dividing the word of truth. completely just plucked that thing out there. paul is building a case against humanity and against human righteousness in romans 1 and 2. he concludes all humanity under sin. and then goes on to say in chapter 3 how to get saved which is by faith in Jesus.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
If It were possible to obey the Ten Commandments then JESUS would not have had to come to earth but It’s NOT possible and,since no one could be righteous without JESUS then all credit goes to GOD for making a way.
Who was it that made the way? Was it God? And did God tell all to "Love Him and Keep His Commandments? I agree that with God's Way, without it no one would be considered Righteous, even Jesus.

Your preaching that it is impossible to do what God says to do, though popular with the religions of the world since Caleb, is never the less not true. With God/Jesus all things are possible, even repentance.
 
Nov 6, 2017
674
12
0
Rom. 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
first answer me how do u get around ephesians 2:8-9 if salvation is by faith AND works?

second u quote romans 2:13 which is again not rightly dividing the word of truth. completely just plucked that thing out there. paul is building a case against humanity and against human righteousness in romans 1 and 2. he concludes all humanity under sin. and then goes on to say in chapter 3 how to get saved which is by faith in Jesus.
Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

True, man can't save themselves from the penalty brought on by their rebellion and disrespect to God.
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I'm already Spiritually dead, nothing I can create, invent, devise will change that. No work of man can save me, only the works of God.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

But Jesus gave me a way. He Commanded that I should repent (Change) turn to God (Change from man's ways to God's Ways,) and bring forth works worthy of repentance (Walk in the Good Works God created "For Man" from the beginning of creation)

I love these scriptures because combined with the rest of scriptures they show the Way.
 
Jul 23, 2017
879
31
0
Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

True, man can't save themselves from the penalty brought on by their rebellion and disrespect to God.
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I'm already Spiritually dead, nothing I can create, invent, devise will change that. No work of man can save me, only the works of God.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

But Jesus gave me a way. He Commanded that I should repent (Change) turn to God (Change from man's ways to God's Ways,) and bring forth works worthy of repentance (Walk in the Good Works God created "For Man" from the beginning of creation)

I love these scriptures because combined with the rest of scriptures they show the Way.
u say in the beginning there is nothing u can create invent devise and no work of man can save me.
then u say that God commanded u should repent turn to God and bring works worthy of repentance.

so there is something u can do? u can repent and be saved.

what am i missing here?
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
first answer me how do u get around ephesians 2:8-9 if salvation is by faith AND works?

second u quote romans 2:13 which is again not rightly dividing the word of truth. completely just plucked that thing out there. paul is building a case against humanity and against human righteousness in romans 1 and 2. he concludes all humanity under sin. and then goes on to say in chapter 3 how to get saved which is by faith in Jesus.
Faith in Jesus also means to trust Him and His Words. All of His Word's, not just the ones that can be twisted to further traditions and doctrines of men.
 
Dec 9, 2011
13,810
1,740
113
Who was it that made the way? Was it God? And did God tell all to "Love Him and Keep His Commandments? I agree that with God's Way, without it no one would be considered Righteous, even Jesus.

Your preaching that it is impossible to do what God says to do, though popular with the religions of the world since Caleb, is never the less not true. With God/Jesus all things are possible, even repentance.
Who was it that made the way?
The WORD of GOD manifested In flesh

And did God tell all to "Love Him and Keep His Commandments?
Yes GOD gave Moses the law (GOD’s perfect standard of righteousness) to give to the children of Israel and this was because of Adams sin.Man would need to know what GOD’s standard was because man would have to be righteous of his own strength now but man could not fulfill the law In his own strength because of the weakness of his flesh.Man wanted to though but he kept being brought Into captivity to the law of sin because of the weakness of his flesh.GOD’s law Is PERFECT but man Is CARNAL sold under sin.

The rich young ruler said what must I do to Inherit ETERNAL LIFE and JESUS told him,You know the Ten Commandments,why would JESUS tell him that If JESUS expected him to be perfect In his own strength.

JESUS told him,why do you call me Good,there Is ONLY ONE,that Is good and that Is GOD,In other words ONLY GOD can save you not someone trying to keep the Ten Commandments.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

True, man can't save themselves from the penalty brought on by their rebellion and disrespect to God.
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I'm already Spiritually dead, nothing I can create, invent, devise will change that. No work of man can save me, only the works of God.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

But Jesus gave me a way. He Commanded that I should repent (Change) turn to God (Change from man's ways to God's Ways,) and bring forth works worthy of repentance (Walk in the Good Works God created "For Man" from the beginning of creation)

I love these scriptures because combined with the rest of scriptures they show the Way.
Leaving the Law behind LOL. We are dead to it because we are united with Christ (Rom 7.4-6)
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
Yes GOD gave Moses the law (GOD’s perfect standard of righteousness) to give to the children of Israel and this was because of Adams sin.Man would need to know what GOD’s standard was because man would have to be righteous of his own strength now but man could not fulfill the law In his own strength because of the weakness of his flesh.Man wanted to though but he kept being brought Into captivity to the law of sin because of the weakness of his flesh.GOD’s law Is PERFECT but man Is CARNAL sold under sin.

The rich young ruler said what must I do to Inherit ETERNAL LIFE and JESUS told him,You know the Ten Commandments,why would JESUS tell him that If JESUS expected him to be perfect In his own strength.

JESUS told him,why do you call me Good,there Is ONLY ONE,that Is good and that Is GOD,In other words ONLY GOD can save you not someone trying to keep the Ten Commandments.
Read the commands that Jesus gave to the rich young ruler. They were much wider than the ten and yet excluded the law of the Sabbath (Matt 19.16-19). It is modern man who is besotted with the ten
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
Faith in Jesus also means to trust Him and His Words. All of His Word's, not just the ones that can be twisted to further traditions and doctrines of men.
Try remembering that :)