Grace alone or grace plus works?
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=seed_time_harvest;3369443]
Yes, Jesus is the Word of God. Did this Flesh destroy Himself?(God's Word) Did He change Himself?(God's Word)
Sin is Transgression of God's Laws according to the inspired Word of God. For Adam to sin, he must have had God's Laws. "for where there is no law, there is no sin".
Gen. 13:13 But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly.
God's definition of sin through out the bible is "Transgression of God's Laws", How could Sodom be guilty of Transgression of God's Laws if God didn't have a law yet?
Gen 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.
2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
How was Noah righteous, and the men of the world sinners, if God had no Law? How did Noah know the difference between clean animals and unclean animals if God had not already given them His Laws.
Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
How could this be of God didn't give mankind His laws before Moses?
So what did Paul do? "25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Which is death. So which Law did he walk in? The Law of God, or the law of his flesh?
Able was considered righteous before God, while Cain wasn't.
Noah was considered "righteous" before God while the men of world wasn't.
Abraham was considered righteous before God, while Sodom wasn't.
Could it be they are just like Paul and were "Convinced in their own mind" to follow God's Instructions instead of the doctrines and Traditions of man? Surely you must consider this possibility.
Able, Noah and Abraham knew what God's Standard was and met them, according to God's Word.
But you preach to all who would listen that this is impossible. And you use a couple of sentences in the Middle of the letters Paul wrote and ignore the entire Word of God with regards to this matter.
Abel, Noah and Abraham had TRUST enough in God to follow His instructions over mans, that you preach they didn't have, and this "trust" was called "FAITH" in the Letters that Paul and others wrote that make up the New Testament.
I know this is what the mainstream preachers of today teach you, but didn't Jesus "Specifically Warned" about this very Specific people?
Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
The preaching that the God of Abraham is no inept, so unjust, that He created man, let them go with no instruction, then killed thousands and tens of thousands of them for not following His Laws that He had not given them is absolutely fascinating to me.
But it gets worse, Mainstream preachers of today also preach that when God finally got around to giving His instruction to man, through Moses, He created "Standards" that were impossible to keep, then killed tens of thousands of people who couldn't keep them.
So what Law did God give Moses, that Abraham didn't have? There is only one and that is the Levitical Priesthood sacrificial "works of the Law" designed to cleanse folks of their sin "Till the Seed should come".
Levi wasn't born until long after Abraham was dead, and this LP law wasn't "ADDED" to the Laws of God until 430 years after God gave Abraham His Promise.
These are the "works and deeds of the Law" Paul is speaking about in Galatians. Abraham was not cleansed by these Laws, he didn't have them, he was cleansed by the Blood of Jesus just like every example of those who trusted God enough to Follow HIS instructions.
The Rich Ruler was exposed as deceiving himself. He said he was obedient, as do many, but Jesus exposed who his real god was. Abraham didn't do this.
Jesus knows the truth about humans because He created them, and He became on of them.
Rom. 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Even with the Holy Spirit in him Paul knows sin dwells in him. How does he know this? Because he is not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ for "THEREIN" is the Righteousness of God revealed.
And through this Gospel Paul learns about men. Jer. 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
All men have this rebellion in them. But like God told Cain "7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Paul knows this and so did Jesus.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Both Paul and Jesus instructed to do the same things to "rule over our wicked flesh".
Jesus said: "17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
And Paul: 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.(Death) He is "DEAD" to sin, his flesh is "crucified with Christ" and does not rule over him anymore, the "law of God" he serves rules over him as it did with Jesus.
In other words ONLY GOD can save you not someone trying to keep the Ten Commandments.
Luke 13:5
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Acts 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
The exact same thing God has instructed since the beginning. "If you do well, will you not be accepted?"
I hope you think about this
Sin is Transgression of God's Laws according to the inspired Word of God. For Adam to sin, he must have had God's Laws. "for where there is no law, there is no sin".
Gen. 13:13 But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly.
God's definition of sin through out the bible is "Transgression of God's Laws", How could Sodom be guilty of Transgression of God's Laws if God didn't have a law yet?
Gen 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.
2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
How was Noah righteous, and the men of the world sinners, if God had no Law? How did Noah know the difference between clean animals and unclean animals if God had not already given them His Laws.
Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
How could this be of God didn't give mankind His laws before Moses?
So what did Paul do? "25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Which is death. So which Law did he walk in? The Law of God, or the law of his flesh?
Able was considered righteous before God, while Cain wasn't.
Noah was considered "righteous" before God while the men of world wasn't.
Abraham was considered righteous before God, while Sodom wasn't.
Could it be they are just like Paul and were "Convinced in their own mind" to follow God's Instructions instead of the doctrines and Traditions of man? Surely you must consider this possibility.
Able, Noah and Abraham knew what God's Standard was and met them, according to God's Word.
But you preach to all who would listen that this is impossible. And you use a couple of sentences in the Middle of the letters Paul wrote and ignore the entire Word of God with regards to this matter.
Abel, Noah and Abraham had TRUST enough in God to follow His instructions over mans, that you preach they didn't have, and this "trust" was called "FAITH" in the Letters that Paul and others wrote that make up the New Testament.
I know this is what the mainstream preachers of today teach you, but didn't Jesus "Specifically Warned" about this very Specific people?
Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
The preaching that the God of Abraham is no inept, so unjust, that He created man, let them go with no instruction, then killed thousands and tens of thousands of them for not following His Laws that He had not given them is absolutely fascinating to me.
But it gets worse, Mainstream preachers of today also preach that when God finally got around to giving His instruction to man, through Moses, He created "Standards" that were impossible to keep, then killed tens of thousands of people who couldn't keep them.
So what Law did God give Moses, that Abraham didn't have? There is only one and that is the Levitical Priesthood sacrificial "works of the Law" designed to cleanse folks of their sin "Till the Seed should come".
Levi wasn't born until long after Abraham was dead, and this LP law wasn't "ADDED" to the Laws of God until 430 years after God gave Abraham His Promise.
These are the "works and deeds of the Law" Paul is speaking about in Galatians. Abraham was not cleansed by these Laws, he didn't have them, he was cleansed by the Blood of Jesus just like every example of those who trusted God enough to Follow HIS instructions.
The Rich Ruler was exposed as deceiving himself. He said he was obedient, as do many, but Jesus exposed who his real god was. Abraham didn't do this.
Jesus knows the truth about humans because He created them, and He became on of them.
Rom. 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Even with the Holy Spirit in him Paul knows sin dwells in him. How does he know this? Because he is not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ for "THEREIN" is the Righteousness of God revealed.
And through this Gospel Paul learns about men. Jer. 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
All men have this rebellion in them. But like God told Cain "7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Paul knows this and so did Jesus.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Both Paul and Jesus instructed to do the same things to "rule over our wicked flesh".
Jesus said: "17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
And Paul: 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.(Death) He is "DEAD" to sin, his flesh is "crucified with Christ" and does not rule over him anymore, the "law of God" he serves rules over him as it did with Jesus.
In other words ONLY GOD can save you not someone trying to keep the Ten Commandments.
Luke 13:5
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Acts 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
The exact same thing God has instructed since the beginning. "If you do well, will you not be accepted?"
I hope you think about this
I did not create God's Path to Salvation. I did not create the requirement to repent, turn to God, and bring forth works worthy of repentance.
these are not MY works. I posted what God says about the matter.
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
No matter what anyone says to the contrary, we all have works. Unless we are in a coma, we have works. You can say you don't but if you do, you are simply deceiving yourself.
To repent means to change our works.
Do I change them from an atheist that transgresses the Commandments of God by his works, and change to some religion that transgresses the Commandments by their works?
Or do I change from directing my own works and turn to God and let Him direct my works.
Verse 10 seems to imply that I am to "WALK" in His Works, not mine. Like Abraham, Abel, Noah, Jesus, Zacharias, Stephen, David, Samuel, Peter, in fact, EVERY example of a righteous person in the Bible strived to "Walk" even as Jesus walked.
This would include the 10 commandments, yes?
So what if I refuse to repent? What if I claim to be a Christian, but I reject the "Good Works" that God created from the foundation of the world that I should walk in them?
What then?
well there is no "What then" Snoozy.
Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
I have Believe in this Jesus, therefore I have "Faith" that what he says is truth.
these are not MY works. I posted what God says about the matter.
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
No matter what anyone says to the contrary, we all have works. Unless we are in a coma, we have works. You can say you don't but if you do, you are simply deceiving yourself.
To repent means to change our works.
Do I change them from an atheist that transgresses the Commandments of God by his works, and change to some religion that transgresses the Commandments by their works?
Or do I change from directing my own works and turn to God and let Him direct my works.
Verse 10 seems to imply that I am to "WALK" in His Works, not mine. Like Abraham, Abel, Noah, Jesus, Zacharias, Stephen, David, Samuel, Peter, in fact, EVERY example of a righteous person in the Bible strived to "Walk" even as Jesus walked.
This would include the 10 commandments, yes?
So what if I refuse to repent? What if I claim to be a Christian, but I reject the "Good Works" that God created from the foundation of the world that I should walk in them?
What then?
well there is no "What then" Snoozy.
Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
I have Believe in this Jesus, therefore I have "Faith" that what he says is truth.
No JESUS did not destroy HIMSELF,HE died FOR man and
remember,It's the Spirit that gives LIFE not the flesh.While we were sinners CHRIST died for us.
You said that Adam had to have the law before he could sin.I know that GOD told Adam what would happen If Adam was disobedient.
I know you are saying that the same GOD that spoke In the old testament Is the same GOD that spoke In the new testament and since GOD does not change we should keep the law and be under Grace also,right?
But man Is carnal and GOD will only accept PERFECTION so then with that would you agree that man trying to keep the law would be polution since man Is carnal SOLD under sin?
So then NOW the Issue Is FAITH... For GOD SO loved the world that HE gave HIS only BEGOTTEN SON that whosoever BELIEVES in HIM shall not perish but have EVERLASTING LIFE.
remember,It's the Spirit that gives LIFE not the flesh.While we were sinners CHRIST died for us.You said that Adam had to have the law before he could sin.I know that GOD told Adam what would happen If Adam was disobedient.
I know you are saying that the same GOD that spoke In the old testament Is the same GOD that spoke In the new testament and since GOD does not change we should keep the law and be under Grace also,right?
But man Is carnal and GOD will only accept PERFECTION so then with that would you agree that man trying to keep the law would be polution since man Is carnal SOLD under sin?
So then NOW the Issue Is FAITH... For GOD SO loved the world that HE gave HIS only BEGOTTEN SON that whosoever BELIEVES in HIM shall not perish but have EVERLASTING LIFE.
=seed_time_harvest;3369767]
STH,
First off, thank you so much for your thoughtful reply. These are good discussions for man to have and you can not know how much I appreciate your tone and the honesty of your questions.
The Bible teaches that Jesus, before becoming man, created all things including man, and His Holy Instructions for man.(God's Law) And I believe what it says about Him.
But because God wants us to make a choice he has also allowed wickedness to dwell in us. We now have a choice between His Righteousness or our wickedness.
Duet. 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD (Jesus) thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD(Jesus) thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them, (Transgress the Commandments of God by man's doctrines and traditions)
18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, (Like the Pharisees and those of Matt. 7:23) and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I (Jesus) have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20
That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, (Jesus) and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto himJesus) for he(Jesus) is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
So Jesus, God's Word that became flesh, (A man like you and I) taught the exact same things did He not?
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
"Duet 30:20, That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life,
It's not about "earning salvation" or "working" for Grace. It's about acknowledging the Choice Jesus gave us, and making the choice.
Your view of Jesus is troubling to me. And goes against a volume of Scriptures both in the Old Testament, and in the New?
6 "And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments."
Num. 14:18 The LORD (Jesus) is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.
19 Pardon, I beseech thee, the iniquity of this people according unto the greatness of thy mercy, and as thou hast forgiven this people, from Egypt even until now.
20 And the LORD said, I have pardoned according to thy word:
Gen. 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
Ex. 34:9 And he said, If now I have found grace in thy sight, O Lord, let my Lord, I pray thee, go among us; for it is a stiffnecked people; and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us for thine inheritance.
So #1. God does not accept only perfection if He forgives people for rebelling against Him. And #2. I think you presume to know what God's definition of "Perfect" is to begin with and that is a judgment I would never make.
As far as polluting God's Commandments, the only way I could pollute them is to change them, or add to them, or take away from them. All things Jesus, in His Word, instructs not to do.
Absolutely. But who is our Faith in? The God of the Bible who became flesh, that lays out before us this day life and good, death and evil?
Or is it another god with long flowing hair and a perfect profile who has no sabbaths, who destroys the fathers commandments, and has given us no choice.
Something for you to think about STH.
Thanks for the conversation
No JESUS did not destroy HIMSELF,HE died FOR man and remember,It's the Spirit that gives LIFE not the flesh.While we were sinners CHRIST died for us.
You said that Adam had to have the law before he could sin.I know that GOD told Adam what would happen If Adam was disobedient.
I know you are saying that the same GOD that spoke In the old testament Is the same GOD that spoke In the new testament and since GOD does not change we should keep the law and be under Grace also, right?
remember,It's the Spirit that gives LIFE not the flesh.While we were sinners CHRIST died for us.You said that Adam had to have the law before he could sin.I know that GOD told Adam what would happen If Adam was disobedient.
I know you are saying that the same GOD that spoke In the old testament Is the same GOD that spoke In the new testament and since GOD does not change we should keep the law and be under Grace also, right?
First off, thank you so much for your thoughtful reply. These are good discussions for man to have and you can not know how much I appreciate your tone and the honesty of your questions.
The Bible teaches that Jesus, before becoming man, created all things including man, and His Holy Instructions for man.(God's Law) And I believe what it says about Him.
But because God wants us to make a choice he has also allowed wickedness to dwell in us. We now have a choice between His Righteousness or our wickedness.
Duet. 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD (Jesus) thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD(Jesus) thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them, (Transgress the Commandments of God by man's doctrines and traditions)
18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, (Like the Pharisees and those of Matt. 7:23) and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I (Jesus) have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20
That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, (Jesus) and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him
Jesus) for he(Jesus) is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.So Jesus, God's Word that became flesh, (A man like you and I) taught the exact same things did He not?
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
"Duet 30:20, That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life,
It's not about "earning salvation" or "working" for Grace. It's about acknowledging the Choice Jesus gave us, and making the choice.
Your view of Jesus is troubling to me. And goes against a volume of Scriptures both in the Old Testament, and in the New?
6 "And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments."
Num. 14:18 The LORD (Jesus) is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.
19 Pardon, I beseech thee, the iniquity of this people according unto the greatness of thy mercy, and as thou hast forgiven this people, from Egypt even until now.
20 And the LORD said, I have pardoned according to thy word:
Gen. 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
Ex. 34:9 And he said, If now I have found grace in thy sight, O Lord, let my Lord, I pray thee, go among us; for it is a stiffnecked people; and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us for thine inheritance.
So #1. God does not accept only perfection if He forgives people for rebelling against Him. And #2. I think you presume to know what God's definition of "Perfect" is to begin with and that is a judgment I would never make.
As far as polluting God's Commandments, the only way I could pollute them is to change them, or add to them, or take away from them. All things Jesus, in His Word, instructs not to do.
Absolutely. But who is our Faith in? The God of the Bible who became flesh, that lays out before us this day life and good, death and evil?
Or is it another god with long flowing hair and a perfect profile who has no sabbaths, who destroys the fathers commandments, and has given us no choice.
Something for you to think about STH.
Thanks for the conversation
I depends on what your definition of Faith is. For instance:
Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Now in this example, Abraham Loved and Trusted God enough to follow His Instruction. The New Testament calls this "FAITH".
So using this example, if I don't trust God enough to follow His instructions, then I wouldn't have faith in Him would I?
It is the same thing with Jesus. If I do as His inspired Word instructs, then it can be said I have Faith in Him. But if I reject His Word's, and follow the instructions of a church or man that causes me to Transgress His Words, then that wouldn't be having Faith in Him at all, would it.
Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Now in this example, Abraham Loved and Trusted God enough to follow His Instruction. The New Testament calls this "FAITH".
So using this example, if I don't trust God enough to follow His instructions, then I wouldn't have faith in Him would I?
It is the same thing with Jesus. If I do as His inspired Word instructs, then it can be said I have Faith in Him. But if I reject His Word's, and follow the instructions of a church or man that causes me to Transgress His Words, then that wouldn't be having Faith in Him at all, would it.
=seed_time_harvest;3369767]
STH,
First off, thank you so much for your thoughtful reply. These are good discussions for man to have and you can not know how much I appreciate your tone and the honesty of your questions.
The Bible teaches that Jesus, before becoming man, created all things including man, and His Holy Instructions for man.(God's Law) And I believe what it says about Him.
But because God wants us to make a choice he has also allowed wickedness to dwell in us. We now have a choice between His Righteousness or our wickedness.
Duet. 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD (Jesus) thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD(Jesus) thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them, (Transgress the Commandments of God by man's doctrines and traditions)
18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, (Like the Pharisees and those of Matt. 7:23) and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I (Jesus) have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20
That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, (Jesus) and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto himJesus) for he(Jesus) is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
So Jesus, God's Word that became flesh, (A man like you and I) taught the exact same things did He not?
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
"Duet 30:20, That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life,
It's not about "earning salvation" or "working" for Grace. It's about acknowledging the Choice Jesus gave us, and making the choice.
Your view of Jesus is troubling to me. And goes against a volume of Scriptures both in the Old Testament, and in the New?
6 "And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments."
Num. 14:18 The LORD (Jesus) is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.
19 Pardon, I beseech thee, the iniquity of this people according unto the greatness of thy mercy, and as thou hast forgiven this people, from Egypt even until now.
20 And the LORD said, I have pardoned according to thy word:
Gen. 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
Ex. 34:9 And he said, If now I have found grace in thy sight, O Lord, let my Lord, I pray thee, go among us; for it is a stiffnecked people; and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us for thine inheritance.
So #1. God does not accept only perfection if He forgives people for rebelling against Him. And #2. I think you presume to know what God's definition of "Perfect" is to begin with and that is a judgment I would never make.
As far as polluting God's Commandments, the only way I could pollute them is to change them, or add to them, or take away from them. All things Jesus, in His Word, instructs not to do.
Absolutely. But who is our Faith in? The God of the Bible who became flesh, that lays out before us this day life and good, death and evil?
Or is it another god with long flowing hair and a perfect profile who has no sabbaths, who destroys the fathers commandments, and has given us no choice.
Something for you to think about STH.
Thanks for the conversation
STH,
First off, thank you so much for your thoughtful reply. These are good discussions for man to have and you can not know how much I appreciate your tone and the honesty of your questions.
The Bible teaches that Jesus, before becoming man, created all things including man, and His Holy Instructions for man.(God's Law) And I believe what it says about Him.
But because God wants us to make a choice he has also allowed wickedness to dwell in us. We now have a choice between His Righteousness or our wickedness.
Duet. 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD (Jesus) thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD(Jesus) thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them, (Transgress the Commandments of God by man's doctrines and traditions)
18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, (Like the Pharisees and those of Matt. 7:23) and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I (Jesus) have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20
That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, (Jesus) and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him
Jesus) for he(Jesus) is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.So Jesus, God's Word that became flesh, (A man like you and I) taught the exact same things did He not?
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
"Duet 30:20, That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life,
It's not about "earning salvation" or "working" for Grace. It's about acknowledging the Choice Jesus gave us, and making the choice.
Your view of Jesus is troubling to me. And goes against a volume of Scriptures both in the Old Testament, and in the New?
6 "And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments."
Num. 14:18 The LORD (Jesus) is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.
19 Pardon, I beseech thee, the iniquity of this people according unto the greatness of thy mercy, and as thou hast forgiven this people, from Egypt even until now.
20 And the LORD said, I have pardoned according to thy word:
Gen. 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
Ex. 34:9 And he said, If now I have found grace in thy sight, O Lord, let my Lord, I pray thee, go among us; for it is a stiffnecked people; and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us for thine inheritance.
So #1. God does not accept only perfection if He forgives people for rebelling against Him. And #2. I think you presume to know what God's definition of "Perfect" is to begin with and that is a judgment I would never make.
As far as polluting God's Commandments, the only way I could pollute them is to change them, or add to them, or take away from them. All things Jesus, in His Word, instructs not to do.
Absolutely. But who is our Faith in? The God of the Bible who became flesh, that lays out before us this day life and good, death and evil?
Or is it another god with long flowing hair and a perfect profile who has no sabbaths, who destroys the fathers commandments, and has given us no choice.
Something for you to think about STH.
Thanks for the conversation
I would agree with the GOD wants us to make a choice and remember JESUS said you believe In GOD believe also In me,In other words they believed In GOD whom no one has ever seen and JESUS was there In flesh and they could see HIM,GOD In flesh and they,not looking at the flesh should recognize the TRUTH that Is GOD IN the flesh.It's the SPIRIT that gives life,not the flesh.
Faith IS the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1). Multiple acts of obedience which follow are WORKS and we are saved through Faith, not works.
Believing and trusting God is faith and following His instructions "afterwards" is works. You seem to make no distinction between faith and works, wrap them both up in a package and simply stamp "faith" on the package. I was taught that same error in the Roman Catholic church, prior to my conversion.
If we don't follow God's instructions at all, then we demonstrate that we don't have faith, but faith is belief, trust, reliance in God and following His instructions "afterwards" is WORKS. In James 2:21, we see that Abraham offering his son Isaac on the altar (after following God's instructions) is called a WORK. *Also notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save him, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works, "shown to be righteous."
So James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of genuine faith, but not the essence of faith and not the means of our salvation.
Teaching and seeking salvation by works is not doing as His inspired Word instructs (John 6:40) and does not equate to Faith in Him at all, but equates to faith in works, rejecting His Words and is following the instructions of a church or man instead of Christ and causes one to transgress His Words, yet sadly, many will find out the hard way one day they were in that boat (Matthew 7:22-23).
Believing and trusting God is faith and following His instructions "afterwards" is works. You seem to make no distinction between faith and works, wrap them both up in a package and simply stamp "faith" on the package. I was taught that same error in the Roman Catholic church, prior to my conversion.
If we don't follow God's instructions at all, then we demonstrate that we don't have faith, but faith is belief, trust, reliance in God and following His instructions "afterwards" is WORKS. In James 2:21, we see that Abraham offering his son Isaac on the altar (after following God's instructions) is called a WORK. *Also notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save him, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works, "shown to be righteous."
So James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of genuine faith, but not the essence of faith and not the means of our salvation.
Teaching and seeking salvation by works is not doing as His inspired Word instructs (John 6:40) and does not equate to Faith in Him at all, but equates to faith in works, rejecting His Words and is following the instructions of a church or man instead of Christ and causes one to transgress His Words, yet sadly, many will find out the hard way one day they were in that boat (Matthew 7:22-23).
James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Do preach that this means people who are hungry and are walking around without any clothes on? Or do you understand this to mean people with no covering,(in their sins) and without the Word of God that Jesus said we live by?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
How do we know what Abrahams Faith was? By his works, yes? Did he believe in an image of God created by man, or does His Faith shown by his works, show his Faith of the God of the bible?
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
But we all have works every day. So then do we all have faith? I would say yes, everyone has Faith in something. But Abraham showed by his works who his Faith is in. Was it the God of the Bible or doctrines and traditions of man?
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? It is God that wraps faith and obedience in a package and call it "Faith".
The entire Faith Chapter of Hebrew mentions several people as the perfect example of those who had Faith.
Which one of these Created their own High Days and rejected Gods?
Which one of these transgressed the Commandments of God by their own man made doctrines and traditions?
Which one of these created an image of God in the likeness of man?
The answer is not one single example of Faith given for our admonition rejected God's Instruction and created their own.
I believe you were right to leave the Catholic church because they transgress the Commandments of God by their own traditions.
But how can just just moving to another church that does the same exact things, be considered true repentance? Can I just move from one religion that creates their won righteousness to another religion that creates their own righteousness?
Gen. 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
They both believe Dan, we all have Faith in something? Even the devil has Faith in something.
What was the difference between Abraham's Faith and the devil's Faith?
Abraham showed his faith by following God's instructions. He didn't say to God, "Well I'm OK with this part of your instruction, but I don't like this other part, so I'm still going to call you Lord, Lord, but I'm not going to follow the parts of your instruction I don't like. I'll just create my own instructions for those I don't agree with.
According to the Word of God, that became flesh in the person of Jesus, it doesn't Work that way?
I disagree with the premise of your statement. Paul is explaining to the Gentiles about the Jews and the "law of Works" VS. the Law of Faith.
Rom. 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Abraham was obedient to God before receiving Law of Circumcision, nor did he ever receive the Levitical Priesthood ceremonial "works of the Law" for justification of sins. Both are considered "the law of Works" by Paul.
The Law of Faith is different.
Gen. 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.
Abraham obeyed God's instruction.
Gen. 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Gen. 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
Abraham was obeying God and trusting God, and showed Faith in God for 25 years before any "Law of Works" were given to him.Rom. 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (Long before an "law of works" were given to him)
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised(for 25 years) that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
So therefore we know:
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law,(Circumcision and Levitical Priesthood "Law of Works") but through the righteousness of faith. (Believing in God enough to follow His Instructions.)
So what was the difference between the folks in Matt. 7 and Abraham?
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Is it the will of the Father that we reject God's Laws and create our own Dan? Is it the will of the Father that we create images of God after the likeness of men? Can you show me where it is the will of God that we create our own High Days and righteousness, while rejecting Gods? Did Abraham do any of these things?
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
How can you say these people didn't have faith in Jesus based on what is said here? They "Come in His name, they claim He is truly the Christ. According to you and your definition of "Faith" they should be all set.
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
There it is Dan. There is the difference between people who say they have Faith, but reject the instructions of God.
This is the difference between those on the Broad Path who call Jesus Lord, and Abraham. When Abraham was told to leave his fathers religion, he didn't argue with God, he didn't consult with the preachers of the land, He obeyed.
Not the Law of Works, but the Law of Faith.
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Do preach that this means people who are hungry and are walking around without any clothes on? Or do you understand this to mean people with no covering,(in their sins) and without the Word of God that Jesus said we live by?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
How do we know what Abrahams Faith was? By his works, yes? Did he believe in an image of God created by man, or does His Faith shown by his works, show his Faith of the God of the bible?
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
But we all have works every day. So then do we all have faith? I would say yes, everyone has Faith in something. But Abraham showed by his works who his Faith is in. Was it the God of the Bible or doctrines and traditions of man?
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? It is God that wraps faith and obedience in a package and call it "Faith".
The entire Faith Chapter of Hebrew mentions several people as the perfect example of those who had Faith.
Which one of these Created their own High Days and rejected Gods?
Which one of these transgressed the Commandments of God by their own man made doctrines and traditions?
Which one of these created an image of God in the likeness of man?
The answer is not one single example of Faith given for our admonition rejected God's Instruction and created their own.
I believe you were right to leave the Catholic church because they transgress the Commandments of God by their own traditions.
But how can just just moving to another church that does the same exact things, be considered true repentance? Can I just move from one religion that creates their won righteousness to another religion that creates their own righteousness?
Gen. 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
They both believe Dan, we all have Faith in something? Even the devil has Faith in something.
What was the difference between Abraham's Faith and the devil's Faith?
Abraham showed his faith by following God's instructions. He didn't say to God, "Well I'm OK with this part of your instruction, but I don't like this other part, so I'm still going to call you Lord, Lord, but I'm not going to follow the parts of your instruction I don't like. I'll just create my own instructions for those I don't agree with.
According to the Word of God, that became flesh in the person of Jesus, it doesn't Work that way?
I disagree with the premise of your statement. Paul is explaining to the Gentiles about the Jews and the "law of Works" VS. the Law of Faith.
Rom. 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Abraham was obedient to God before receiving Law of Circumcision, nor did he ever receive the Levitical Priesthood ceremonial "works of the Law" for justification of sins. Both are considered "the law of Works" by Paul.
The Law of Faith is different.
Gen. 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.
Abraham obeyed God's instruction.
Gen. 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Gen. 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
Abraham was obeying God and trusting God, and showed Faith in God for 25 years before any "Law of Works" were given to him.Rom. 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (Long before an "law of works" were given to him)
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised(for 25 years) that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
So therefore we know:
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law,(Circumcision and Levitical Priesthood "Law of Works") but through the righteousness of faith. (Believing in God enough to follow His Instructions.)
So what was the difference between the folks in Matt. 7 and Abraham?
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Is it the will of the Father that we reject God's Laws and create our own Dan? Is it the will of the Father that we create images of God after the likeness of men? Can you show me where it is the will of God that we create our own High Days and righteousness, while rejecting Gods? Did Abraham do any of these things?
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
How can you say these people didn't have faith in Jesus based on what is said here? They "Come in His name, they claim He is truly the Christ. According to you and your definition of "Faith" they should be all set.
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
There it is Dan. There is the difference between people who say they have Faith, but reject the instructions of God.
This is the difference between those on the Broad Path who call Jesus Lord, and Abraham. When Abraham was told to leave his fathers religion, he didn't argue with God, he didn't consult with the preachers of the land, He obeyed.
Not the Law of Works, but the Law of Faith.
