Grace alone or grace plus works?
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Is not what we think based on our understating if scripture?
So if we post something that we believe, we do so based on our understanding of scripture then we post what we think.
I agree with you in that if we feel that a brother has a wrong understanding of scripture we should say so but in love (please note I'm not saying you lack love for a brother because I do believe your desire is to see people conformed to the image of Jesus) the Jesus who died and rose again to forgive us our sins to reconcile us to the Father.
I do feel however that when we post what the think of believe we need to explain it. Easier said than done though.
Genuine believers will want to be like Jesus.
Is they don't then they needs to be addressed.
So if we post something that we believe, we do so based on our understanding of scripture then we post what we think.
I agree with you in that if we feel that a brother has a wrong understanding of scripture we should say so but in love (please note I'm not saying you lack love for a brother because I do believe your desire is to see people conformed to the image of Jesus) the Jesus who died and rose again to forgive us our sins to reconcile us to the Father.
I do feel however that when we post what the think of believe we need to explain it. Easier said than done though.
Genuine believers will want to be like Jesus.
Is they don't then they needs to be addressed.
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I understand the whole "it's your interpretation" argument. It's been around for a long time. I already know you believe differently than I do, that is the very reason for my posts.
I once asked you if you believed it is God's will that we create images of Him in the likeness of man. I also asked if you believe it is God's Will that we create our own High Days and "Feasts unto the Lord" while rejecting much of God's instructions.
It would be great if you could answer these questions based on your understanding of scriptures.
And maybe show me why you think the answer I gave to your question is my own "understanding" and not what the Word intended.
But I understand if you don't want to.
I once asked you if you believed it is God's will that we create images of Him in the likeness of man. I also asked if you believe it is God's Will that we create our own High Days and "Feasts unto the Lord" while rejecting much of God's instructions.
It would be great if you could answer these questions based on your understanding of scriptures.
And maybe show me why you think the answer I gave to your question is my own "understanding" and not what the Word intended.
But I understand if you don't want to.
The High Days and feasts unto the Lord were all designed to show the coming of Christ in the OT.
For those who have come to Christ it would be kind of absurd to pretend that they were still waiting for Him to come save them and give them understanding in the Feasts and High days.
Galatians 3:23-25
[FONT="]23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.[/FONT]
[FONT="]24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.[/FONT]
[FONT="]25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
All of it was the schoolmaster. High days, feasts, 10 commandments, levitical law, sabbaths...[/FONT]
For those who have come to Christ it would be kind of absurd to pretend that they were still waiting for Him to come save them and give them understanding in the Feasts and High days.
Galatians 3:23-25
[FONT="]23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.[/FONT]
[FONT="]24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.[/FONT]
[FONT="]25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
All of it was the schoolmaster. High days, feasts, 10 commandments, levitical law, sabbaths...[/FONT]
What is absurd is the way you reject almost the entire Bible, to justify your traditions and doctrines of man. But you must do this because most of the scriptures, as I and others have shown you, condemn your preaching as false.
Gal. 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
What promise?
Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
This was the promise Paul is speaking about.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect
Abraham had God's Laws, except one, the Levitical Priesthood. Levi wasn't even born yet so it is impossible for this law to have been "ADDED" to God's Law until much later.
Paul Continues.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
The Jews were "Bewitching" the Galatians into following their doctrines and traditions of men they called "The Law of Moses" which included Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" for remission of sin.. They taught that unless you followed their Law, you could not be saved.
Matt. 24: 4 For they (Not God)bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
We know from Jesus that these mainstream preachers were not teaching what Moses taught.
John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?
Paul is addressing these concerns in this chapter.
Abraham was forgiven his sins and accepted by God "apart from" "without" the Levitical Priesthood. But He was blessed for obedience to God's Commandments and given the promise as it is written in your Bible.
The Jews taught that the inheritance of the Kingdom of God came by their traditions and these "works of the Levitical Priesthood" as commanded by Moses. But Paul teaches that these "Works of the Law" didn't exist during Abraham's time, yet he was given the promise.
The he asks:
19 Wherefore then serveth the law?
You preach that this statement means EVERY LAWOF GOD in the Old Testament, but that preaching can not be supported by scripture. Paul is talking about the "Works of the Law". Feast of Unleavened bread is not a "work of the law" for remission of sins. Thou shall not commit adultery is not a "Work of the Law" for remission of sins.
It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made;
What was it "ADDED" to? What was being "Transgressed"?
Your preaching that "High days, feasts, 10 commandments, levitical law, sabbaths..." were all ADDED because of transgressions is not only false, it makes no sense.
There has to be a law that was transgressed. Abraham had God's Laws, commandments and Sabbaths. He didn't have the Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" for remission of sins.
21 Is the law(the Added law) then against the promises of God? (given to Abraham because of obedience)God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
What law was designed to remove sins, thus giving life? Feast of Tabernacles? Thou shall not steal?
No GP, the only Law that was created for the remission of sins was the Levitical Priesthood given 430 years after Abraham that was "ADDED" to the Laws he kept, "Till the Seed should come."
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
This isn't talking about Abraham, He already did what was required. He repented, turned to God, and brought forth works worthy of repentance. He was not "kept under the law" (spiritually dead) He already had the proper Faith.
This is speaking to the law ADDED 430 years later.
24 Wherefore the law (Added 430 years after Abraham was blessed for keeping God's Commandments) was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
This Added Law was the "shadow of things to come". The sacrifice of Christ symbolized by the blood of goats.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
When the people Paul spoke to understood that the Levitical Priesthood was a shadow of Christ's Priesthood, and they understood that the "Levitical Priesthood Works and deeds of the Law" for remission of sins were a showdown of Christ's blood, then they will understand there is no longer a need for the blood of goats or Levitical ceremonies.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. (for the remission of sins)
Not by the "ADDED" Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" (for remission of sins)
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
This means we listen to Him and His instructions, not the Pharisees or any mainstream preachers who transgress God's Commandments by their own traditions.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
But don't make the same mistake the mainstream preachers of Jesus ' time made.
They created their own traditions and doctrines. They created their own image of God after the likeness of man. They created their own High Days and rejected God's Instruction.
Yes, they call themselves "Children of Abraham.
John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
And what were the works of Abraham? Why did God give Abraham the promise?
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Paul preached that were are not justified by those priesthood "works of the Law" for remission of sins that the mainstream preachers were preaching at the time.
He preached to be like Abraham.
Rom. 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Just like God said about Abraham.
I know you can't hear these words, but others are reading. I hope they might.
.
Gal. 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
What promise?
Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
This was the promise Paul is speaking about.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect
Abraham had God's Laws, except one, the Levitical Priesthood. Levi wasn't even born yet so it is impossible for this law to have been "ADDED" to God's Law until much later.
Paul Continues.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
The Jews were "Bewitching" the Galatians into following their doctrines and traditions of men they called "The Law of Moses" which included Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" for remission of sin.. They taught that unless you followed their Law, you could not be saved.
Matt. 24: 4 For they (Not God)bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
We know from Jesus that these mainstream preachers were not teaching what Moses taught.
John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?
Paul is addressing these concerns in this chapter.
Abraham was forgiven his sins and accepted by God "apart from" "without" the Levitical Priesthood. But He was blessed for obedience to God's Commandments and given the promise as it is written in your Bible.
The Jews taught that the inheritance of the Kingdom of God came by their traditions and these "works of the Levitical Priesthood" as commanded by Moses. But Paul teaches that these "Works of the Law" didn't exist during Abraham's time, yet he was given the promise.
The he asks:
19 Wherefore then serveth the law?
You preach that this statement means EVERY LAWOF GOD in the Old Testament, but that preaching can not be supported by scripture. Paul is talking about the "Works of the Law". Feast of Unleavened bread is not a "work of the law" for remission of sins. Thou shall not commit adultery is not a "Work of the Law" for remission of sins.
It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made;
What was it "ADDED" to? What was being "Transgressed"?
Your preaching that "High days, feasts, 10 commandments, levitical law, sabbaths..." were all ADDED because of transgressions is not only false, it makes no sense.
There has to be a law that was transgressed. Abraham had God's Laws, commandments and Sabbaths. He didn't have the Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" for remission of sins.
21 Is the law(the Added law) then against the promises of God? (given to Abraham because of obedience)God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
What law was designed to remove sins, thus giving life? Feast of Tabernacles? Thou shall not steal?
No GP, the only Law that was created for the remission of sins was the Levitical Priesthood given 430 years after Abraham that was "ADDED" to the Laws he kept, "Till the Seed should come."
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
This isn't talking about Abraham, He already did what was required. He repented, turned to God, and brought forth works worthy of repentance. He was not "kept under the law" (spiritually dead) He already had the proper Faith.
This is speaking to the law ADDED 430 years later.
24 Wherefore the law (Added 430 years after Abraham was blessed for keeping God's Commandments) was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
This Added Law was the "shadow of things to come". The sacrifice of Christ symbolized by the blood of goats.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
When the people Paul spoke to understood that the Levitical Priesthood was a shadow of Christ's Priesthood, and they understood that the "Levitical Priesthood Works and deeds of the Law" for remission of sins were a showdown of Christ's blood, then they will understand there is no longer a need for the blood of goats or Levitical ceremonies.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. (for the remission of sins)
Not by the "ADDED" Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" (for remission of sins)
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
This means we listen to Him and His instructions, not the Pharisees or any mainstream preachers who transgress God's Commandments by their own traditions.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
But don't make the same mistake the mainstream preachers of Jesus ' time made.
They created their own traditions and doctrines. They created their own image of God after the likeness of man. They created their own High Days and rejected God's Instruction.
Yes, they call themselves "Children of Abraham.
John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
And what were the works of Abraham? Why did God give Abraham the promise?
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Paul preached that were are not justified by those priesthood "works of the Law" for remission of sins that the mainstream preachers were preaching at the time.
He preached to be like Abraham.
Rom. 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Just like God said about Abraham.
I know you can't hear these words, but others are reading. I hope they might.
.
you quoted Acts 15 v.1 and 10. well, directly in between those is Acts 15 v. 5 - but some of the sect of Pharisees who had believed stood and said " it is necessary to circumcise the gentiles and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses " . then v.6 the Apostles and elders came together to consider this matter.
so, it the meeting was not about circumcision alone, but also about the law. curious, because you Hebrew roots/ sda claim ( falsely ) that the gentiles had the law.
so, it the meeting was not about circumcision alone, but also about the law. curious, because you Hebrew roots/ sda claim ( falsely ) that the gentiles had the law.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
You and I both know that mainstream preachers for centuries have created, from the imagination of their own minds, images of God after the likeness of man. Paul says the mainstream preachers of his time did the same thing.
Rom. 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
When I see people claiming God is unjust, or not perfect in all His ways, this scripture comes to mind.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Thinking they can create a better way to heaven than God created for Abraham. Nothing new under the sun.
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Because Jesus freed me from the deception and death of the "Broad Path" and I no longer feel the urge to defend man made doctrines and traditions, it is no longer difficult for me to see or talk about or explore the Mainstream Christian tradition of creating images of God after the likeness of man, one tradition of many they "work" to transgress the Commandments of God.
But I do forget sometimes how hard it was for me to accept these truths in the beginning.
My sincere desire is that you might actually study the posts I make, not against mainstream sermons and religious doctrines, but by the inspired Word of God, All of it.
But as Jesus said, there is a cost.
You and I both know that mainstream preachers for centuries have created, from the imagination of their own minds, images of God after the likeness of man. Paul says the mainstream preachers of his time did the same thing.
Rom. 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
When I see people claiming God is unjust, or not perfect in all His ways, this scripture comes to mind.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Thinking they can create a better way to heaven than God created for Abraham. Nothing new under the sun.
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Because Jesus freed me from the deception and death of the "Broad Path" and I no longer feel the urge to defend man made doctrines and traditions, it is no longer difficult for me to see or talk about or explore the Mainstream Christian tradition of creating images of God after the likeness of man, one tradition of many they "work" to transgress the Commandments of God.
But I do forget sometimes how hard it was for me to accept these truths in the beginning.
My sincere desire is that you might actually study the posts I make, not against mainstream sermons and religious doctrines, but by the inspired Word of God, All of it.
But as Jesus said, there is a cost.
Curious that Jesus said over and over that even though the Pharisees claimed their religion was the "Laws of Moses", He clearly said over and over that they were lying and were not preaching the Laws of Moses. Jesus said it was them, and not God, that placed burdens on the backs of the people, and my post clearly shows.
But as is your custom, you believe the false preachers over the Word of God.
I have said many times I am not SDA or Hebrew Roots or any other label you created to place those who don't cow tow to your doctrines and traditions of men. But what else do you have? As the mainstream preachers of Paul's time falsely accuses him, so do you falsely accuse me.
But this know, that by the Word you call lies, So believe I all the words of Paul.
Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
The exact same thing Peter told the Gentiles to do in Acts 15.
Acts 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
But that we write unto them, that they abstain from (Repent) pollutions of idols,(Law of Moses) and from fornication(Law of Moses), and from things strangled(Law of Moses), and from blood.(Law of Moses
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Bring forth works worthy of repentance.
But as is your custom, you believe the false preachers over the Word of God.
I have said many times I am not SDA or Hebrew Roots or any other label you created to place those who don't cow tow to your doctrines and traditions of men. But what else do you have? As the mainstream preachers of Paul's time falsely accuses him, so do you falsely accuse me.
But this know, that by the Word you call lies, So believe I all the words of Paul.
Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
The exact same thing Peter told the Gentiles to do in Acts 15.
Acts 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
But that we write unto them, that they abstain from (Repent) pollutions of idols,(Law of Moses) and from fornication(Law of Moses), and from things strangled(Law of Moses), and from blood.(Law of Moses
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Bring forth works worthy of repentance.
Studyman,
I sincerely hope your above post is not aimed at those of us who do not agree with you (which you never fully explain what you believe) or those of us who genuinely believe in Jesus and have placed our faith in him and seek to walk with him and be like him.
I say this because you have conveniently only posted v21:23
Let's read the whole passage shall we.
Romans 1:16-28
The Just Live by Faith
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,
25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.
27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;
First let us agree as Paul stated "The just shall live by faith". There is no side stepping that.
From faith to faith is where salvation is granted as a result of faith and to grow and walk in it is our goal.
The first effect of faith is salvation whereby we are saved from the penalty of sin and declared righteous by God.
As we grow in faith God works in us to overcome the power of sin and live righteously.
If that's the case then surely we know God, even if limited to start with but as we grow in him we get to know him more.
Therefore v18 to me does not apply to genuine believers, because they do not want to suppress the truth or the righteousness of God.
V18:23 talks about those who 'knew of God' and they do so because of creation, therefore there must be a creator.
In fact given the times there were so many pagan gods they were probably told about and the evil practices involved in worshipping them. They were probably told of a god by those who created such a god in thier own minds (that's just my thoughts only)
Although the knew God (21) that's a big difference to know God.
I know many people who believe there is a god but not know the true living God.
They are unbelievers.
Now the following is the reason why I say "I sincerely hope that your post is not aimed at those who disagree with you and are genuine believers"
Look at v24:28
You left those verses off your post.
So to me you are inferring that mainstream teachers (who genuinely love God) and genuine believers who have placed thier faith in Jesus, as per verse 17, then by inference you are saying they are not because they do not believe in the same jesus you do
Then their heart is unclean and God will give them up to thier evil passions that they have no desire for.
You neglected to post v18:20, then posted v21:23.
You have taken a whole chapter and picked a few verses to back up what ever it is you believe (which no one on here knows)
Yet. V24:28 reveal the true heart of those in such verses and not those in verse 17
Totally irrelevant to your post because this chapter has nothing to do with that.
The chapter is about the just who live by faith and trust those who have no regards to knowing the true living God but just want to walk in their evil passions and desires.
Sorry Studyman but you are way off the mark here and it's bordering on insulting.
I sincerely hope your above post is not aimed at those of us who do not agree with you (which you never fully explain what you believe) or those of us who genuinely believe in Jesus and have placed our faith in him and seek to walk with him and be like him.
I say this because you have conveniently only posted v21:23
Let's read the whole passage shall we.
Romans 1:16-28
The Just Live by Faith
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,
25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.
27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;
First let us agree as Paul stated "The just shall live by faith". There is no side stepping that.
From faith to faith is where salvation is granted as a result of faith and to grow and walk in it is our goal.
The first effect of faith is salvation whereby we are saved from the penalty of sin and declared righteous by God.
As we grow in faith God works in us to overcome the power of sin and live righteously.
If that's the case then surely we know God, even if limited to start with but as we grow in him we get to know him more.
Therefore v18 to me does not apply to genuine believers, because they do not want to suppress the truth or the righteousness of God.
V18:23 talks about those who 'knew of God' and they do so because of creation, therefore there must be a creator.
In fact given the times there were so many pagan gods they were probably told about and the evil practices involved in worshipping them. They were probably told of a god by those who created such a god in thier own minds (that's just my thoughts only)
Although the knew God (21) that's a big difference to know God.
I know many people who believe there is a god but not know the true living God.
They are unbelievers.
Now the following is the reason why I say "I sincerely hope that your post is not aimed at those who disagree with you and are genuine believers"
Look at v24:28
You left those verses off your post.
So to me you are inferring that mainstream teachers (who genuinely love God) and genuine believers who have placed thier faith in Jesus, as per verse 17, then by inference you are saying they are not because they do not believe in the same jesus you do
Then their heart is unclean and God will give them up to thier evil passions that they have no desire for.
You neglected to post v18:20, then posted v21:23.
You have taken a whole chapter and picked a few verses to back up what ever it is you believe (which no one on here knows)
Yet. V24:28 reveal the true heart of those in such verses and not those in verse 17
Totally irrelevant to your post because this chapter has nothing to do with that.
The chapter is about the just who live by faith and trust those who have no regards to knowing the true living God but just want to walk in their evil passions and desires.
Sorry Studyman but you are way off the mark here and it's bordering on insulting.
My post's aren't pointing to you Billy,
They are pointing to the Elephant in the Room that no one wants to talk about.
There is a great religion that Jesus said would "Come in His Name" preaching that He is truly the Son of God, that will preach lies about God.
Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive(Tell lies to) you.5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.(Convince many to believe a lie)
This great religion was foretold in the Gospel of Christ, where the Righteousness of God and the Wrath of God are revealed. (Old Testament)
Jer. 23:16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD.
17 They say still unto them that despise me,(Transgress the Commandments of God by their own traditions) The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart,(Follow an image of God after the likeness of man) No evil shall come upon you.
1 Sam 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
23For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
This is exactly what happened to the Mainstream Preachers of Paul's time.
They rejected God's Word and created their own. Jesus rejected them for this behavior.
Today we have a great "Christian" religion that transgresses the commandments of God by their own traditions.
Yes, they do it in Christ's Name as prophesied, but they do it just the same.
This great religion has created images of God after the likeness of man, created "Feasts unto the Lord" in worship to this God both are in direct rebellion to God's Words and instruction in the first and greatest commandment.
They teach God's Commandments, including His Sabbath, are not for the Christian, when Jesus specifically taught that the Sabbath was made for man.
They teach the New Covenant is the elimination of God's Instructions given in the Gospel of Christ as Paul calls it. But there is no evidence that the New Covenant had anything to do with re-defining sin.
Todays mainstream preachers teach that the mainstream church of Christ's time were trying to earn Salvation by keeping God's Laws. Paul refutes this teaching in the 2nd half of Romans 1 just for starters. There is nowhere in the Bible that preaches the Mainstream preachers of Christ's time were trying to earn Salvation by obeying God. Yet "many" preach this lie anyway.
Why, because they have been given over to their rebellious flesh to believe a lie.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Paul says the same thing in 2 Thes. 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them,
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Do you believe these disciples that walked away became Atheists? Or did they start their own religion where it was not needful to "DO ANYTHING" for repentance?
Phil. 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
But nope, this scripture gets thrown out with the "Bring Works Worthy of repentance" teaching.
I could go on and on and on exposing man made doctrines and traditions with God's Word which is sharper that a two edged sword.
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
The Word of God cut's through all the BS Billy. All of it. Even the lies we have sheltered in our own minds.
You can try and make the case that I omit scriptures on purpose, but it will not stick because it isn't true.
I am sorry if you are offended by these truths. I was offended years ago by the teachings of the Christ as well. Everybody is offended when they are told to "repent".
I want to talk about this Elephant in the Room because it tricks so many people into rejecting God's Words and accepting man's doctrines and traditions in the name of Jesus.
If this insults you then I say Good. Why does it insult you? Is it because MCC doesn't create images of God after the likeness of man? No, we both know that they do. Is it because the MCC didn't create High Days and their own Sabbaths? No, because we both know this is true. If you are insulted because you know these things are true, maybe you will "turn to God" and Hid Righteousness as Jesus instructs, and let HIM lead you to all truth.
Rom. 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
We are all born into a religion that transgresses the Commandments of God by their traditions. Jesus was, Peter was, Caleb was, Abraham and Noah, even righteous Abel who was killed by his "Christian" brother Cain.
We all have to decide or as Paul says in his letter regarding the weak in faith, " be convinced in our own mind", whether to follow the Path Jesus walked as instructed which includes God's Righteous Commandments, or if we take the easy Path that everybody else is on and adhere to the traditions and doctrines of men.
They are pointing to the Elephant in the Room that no one wants to talk about.
There is a great religion that Jesus said would "Come in His Name" preaching that He is truly the Son of God, that will preach lies about God.
Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive(Tell lies to) you.5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.(Convince many to believe a lie)
This great religion was foretold in the Gospel of Christ, where the Righteousness of God and the Wrath of God are revealed. (Old Testament)
Jer. 23:16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD.
17 They say still unto them that despise me,(Transgress the Commandments of God by their own traditions) The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart,(Follow an image of God after the likeness of man) No evil shall come upon you.
1 Sam 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
23For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
This is exactly what happened to the Mainstream Preachers of Paul's time.
They rejected God's Word and created their own. Jesus rejected them for this behavior.
Today we have a great "Christian" religion that transgresses the commandments of God by their own traditions.
Yes, they do it in Christ's Name as prophesied, but they do it just the same.
This great religion has created images of God after the likeness of man, created "Feasts unto the Lord" in worship to this God both are in direct rebellion to God's Words and instruction in the first and greatest commandment.
They teach God's Commandments, including His Sabbath, are not for the Christian, when Jesus specifically taught that the Sabbath was made for man.
They teach the New Covenant is the elimination of God's Instructions given in the Gospel of Christ as Paul calls it. But there is no evidence that the New Covenant had anything to do with re-defining sin.
Todays mainstream preachers teach that the mainstream church of Christ's time were trying to earn Salvation by keeping God's Laws. Paul refutes this teaching in the 2nd half of Romans 1 just for starters. There is nowhere in the Bible that preaches the Mainstream preachers of Christ's time were trying to earn Salvation by obeying God. Yet "many" preach this lie anyway.
Why, because they have been given over to their rebellious flesh to believe a lie.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Paul says the same thing in 2 Thes. 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them,
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Do you believe these disciples that walked away became Atheists? Or did they start their own religion where it was not needful to "DO ANYTHING" for repentance?
Phil. 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
But nope, this scripture gets thrown out with the "Bring Works Worthy of repentance" teaching.
I could go on and on and on exposing man made doctrines and traditions with God's Word which is sharper that a two edged sword.
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
The Word of God cut's through all the BS Billy. All of it. Even the lies we have sheltered in our own minds.
You can try and make the case that I omit scriptures on purpose, but it will not stick because it isn't true.
I am sorry if you are offended by these truths. I was offended years ago by the teachings of the Christ as well. Everybody is offended when they are told to "repent".
I want to talk about this Elephant in the Room because it tricks so many people into rejecting God's Words and accepting man's doctrines and traditions in the name of Jesus.
If this insults you then I say Good. Why does it insult you? Is it because MCC doesn't create images of God after the likeness of man? No, we both know that they do. Is it because the MCC didn't create High Days and their own Sabbaths? No, because we both know this is true. If you are insulted because you know these things are true, maybe you will "turn to God" and Hid Righteousness as Jesus instructs, and let HIM lead you to all truth.
Rom. 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
We are all born into a religion that transgresses the Commandments of God by their traditions. Jesus was, Peter was, Caleb was, Abraham and Noah, even righteous Abel who was killed by his "Christian" brother Cain.
We all have to decide or as Paul says in his letter regarding the weak in faith, " be convinced in our own mind", whether to follow the Path Jesus walked as instructed which includes God's Righteous Commandments, or if we take the easy Path that everybody else is on and adhere to the traditions and doctrines of men.