God's sovereignity and man's "freedom"...

[valiant]

Originally Posted by valiant

HE who believes is not condemned. He who believes not is condemned already

That's why we are to preach the gospel, so people have the opportunity to hear it so they can choose to believe it.

No man will choose to respond to the Gospel unless God works within Him. Man is dead in trespasses and sins.

Absolutely. Anyone can choose to believe the gospel.

Theoretically. But no mam WILL choose it unless God works it within Him,

If so he has done something to earn salvation.

Yes. He has decided to believe. That's what you did at some point.

No I did not. God forced Himself upon me, bringing me to repentance and faith.

He has not received it as a free gift.

Of course he has. So did you, when you chose to believe.

If God requires of me faith before I can be saved, then it is not a free gift. It is partly earned by my faith,

But I did not choose to believe. God brought me to believe.

God does not force salvation on anyone. He wants all men to choose to believe.

Well meet one whom He did. otherwise I would not have believed. Meet also Paul. He was given no option.

Calvinism is not true.

But Paulinism IS, and he made clear that we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world (Eph 1.3 onwards; 1 Peter 1.2). Jesus agreed (John 6.39)

God did not, and does not, determine who will come to Him for salvation.

'Whom the Father gives Me will come to me' (John 6.39), I prefer His word to yours.

 

[Dan58]

No I did not. God forced Himself upon me, bringing me to repentance and faith.

God doesn’t make the choice for us. We do that. Belief is a choice, otherwise we are robots, and all this is a charade.

 

[Nehemiah6]

*No man will choose to respond to the Gospel unless God works within Him. Man is dead in trespasses and sins.*

Who has ever denied this (Q) When the Gospel is preached the power of the Gospel is MULTIPLIED by the power of God the Holy Spirit in order to penetrated to the very core of the individual. It is God who convicts and convinces sinners to show them their need for the Savior.

But in the end, the hearer must either believe and repent, or disbelieve and condemn himself (Mk 16:15,16). And because God is gracious, He speaks over and over again to sinners. Thus we read in Scripture *Today, if ye will hear His voice, harden not your hearts*.

But sinners are not regenerated before they repent and believe. That is the false notion put out by Calvinists. To be regenerated, a sinner must receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. And before that happens, he must repent.

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[joaniemarie]

But its solely through the proclamation of the gospel. And this is done by His ppl witnessing, teaching, preaching it to them. There is no other way God saves ppl. Are we in agreement here?



In regards to prayer, we are to pray in accordance to God's will. However, there are many times we do not know exactly what His will is. That is why we beseech Him many times. Daniel prayed for 21 days before he got an answer. But we are to ask in prayer that His will be done it that prayer. I prayed for my dad's healing(kidney failure that led to dialysis), but after years, I finally asked Him to take him home if there was no healing for him. I didn't want to see him to continue suffering. God took him home at 5:35 AM 4/17/2015. I was in the room with him as he left. That was not easy, but I believe he is at rest now. I bent my will to God's. My will was for him to be healed, God's will was to take him home.

By that time it probably was God's loving and merciful actions to take your dad even though you wanted him with you. But we also have to take into consideration not only in your situation for you and your dad., but for all of us and our situations in life.

Many things are already under the bridge in our lives due to the millions of choices we were allowed to make that got us to where we are today that were not necessarily God's will for us. But because He allows us to make our own choices we don't always make the right ones. Also we live in a fallen world that has many pitfalls along the way. But He takes us where we are today and works with us and His love and mercy ALWAYS shows up at all times.

My question to you guys from the beginning of this conversation was how and when and why we pray. God does do things because we pray and had we not prayed He would not have done them. We have to have confidence that our prayers matter and that He doesn't fail to give us things simply because we asked.
I'll repost my other post from way back in the beginning of the conversation about prayer and God's will.


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I know in the scheme of things it's not God's idea that I pray for a German Shepherd dog. It's not God's idea that I pray for a house in the country with a certain kind of sink and faucet. It's not His idea I pray for a pair of shoes that won't hurt my feet. Yet God in His love and generosity gave those things and more to me just because I asked and He loves me. He could have given me another trailer but instead He gave me a little house and then 2 dogs. (one a perfect gentle German Shepherd)

There are many things that I pray for that are not important in the hierarchy of importance in this life to anyone but me. Yet the Lord has considered me who you consider a tiny speck of sand in the scheme of things on the planet., and answered my prayers. Jesus said if we have seen Him we have seen the Father.

If you believe God is a far off., not interested in you anymore than a speck of dust in the world of hundreds of millions of billions of other specks of dust totally unimportant., than yes., you won't influence God to answer your prayers because you wouldn't have believed the Bible when it says you are more important that the lilies of the field or the birds of the air. I draw your attention to Psalms 23 and the words of God about Jesus our Good Shepherd who loves His sheep and hears them and they hear Him.

[/FONT][SUP]1 [/SUP]The Lord is my Shepherd [to feed, guide, and shield me], I shall not lack.
[SUP]
2 [/SUP]He makes me lie down in [fresh, tender] green pastures; He leads me beside the still and restful waters.
[SUP]
3 [/SUP]He refreshes and restores my life (my self); He leads me in the paths of righteousness [uprightness and right standing with Him—not for my earning it, but] for His name’s sake.
[SUP]
4 [/SUP]Yes, though I walk through the [deep, sunless] valley of the shadow of death, I will fear or dread no evil, for You are with me; Your rod [to protect] and Your staff [to guide], they comfort me.
[SUP]
5 [/SUP]You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies. You anoint my head with [SUP][a][/SUP]oil; my [brimming] cup runs over.
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6 [/SUP]Surely or only goodness, mercy, and unfailing love shall follow me all the days of my life, and through the length of my days the house of the Lord [and His presence] shall be my dwelling place.
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[preacher4truth]

I'M a born again Calvinist. My wife and I were Missionary "assistant's", (not missionaries), and ministered the Gospel to the Karen mountain tribes in Northern Thailand, for 5yrs. The Pastor who resided with the Karen folks had 10 regular believer's who attended services. God would add I new believer to this small Church, from Buddhist to Christianity, about ,one every two years, some times two on average.

Question, where does this notion of Calvinist belief's; "Make for a lazy bunch of Calvins" How will anyone know they are called by God unless there is a caller who can preach God's word, The Great Commission; "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit", Matthew28:19; "Here I am send me Lord."

God bless you!

Unfortunately her accusations, lies and slander is over the top. I tried to be respectful to her and her heretical teachings, then she pulls her callow drivel laden stunt.

Not sure why I take people off ignore only to put them back there.

By the way bless you for your service and proving the lies of her ilk.

 

[TruthTalk]

Unfortunately her accusations, lies and slander is over the top. I tried to be respectful to her and her heretical teachings, then she pulls her callow drivel laden stunt.

Not sure why I take people off ignore only to put them back there.

By the way bless you for your service and proving the lies of her ilk.

Quote: joaniemarie ; "I'M SOOOOOO THANKFUL THIS IS NOT THE CASE WITH JESUS!!He loves us unconditionallyand doesn't throw our faults in our faces because if anyone has the right and ability to do so He does."​

You are so correct P4t. She claims that Jesus does not, "throw our faults in of our faces" and then in this thread she "throws in our faults face" this insult; "Makes for a lazy bunch of Calvins."

What does it mean when you do the exact same thing, that you are telling people not to do. Insincerity, not biblically sound teaching, not believable, Maybe.​

 

[preacher4truth]

Quote: joaniemarie ; "I'M SOOOOOO THANKFUL THIS IS NOT THE CASE WITH JESUS!!He loves us unconditionallyand doesn't throw our faults in our faces because if anyone has the right and ability to do so He does."​

You are so correct P4t. She claims that Jesus does not, "throw our faults in of our faces" and then in this thread she "throws in our faults face" this insult; "Makes for a lazy bunch of Calvins."

What does it mean when you do the exact same thing, that you are telling people not to do. Insincerity, not biblically sound teaching, not believable, Maybe.​

I had forgotten about the mouthiness. It's called hypocrisy on her part but for an hyper grace heretic it means nothing, they have license to sin and deny the biblical need for believers to confess their sins. So anything goes for them, they aren't accountable to anyone.

 

[TruthTalk]

Sorry, I meant to say; "and then in this thread she, "throws our faults in our face", Please excuse thank you!

 

[joaniemarie]

Quote: joaniemarie ; "I'M SOOOOOO THANKFUL THIS IS NOT THE CASE WITH JESUS!!He loves us unconditionallyand doesn't throw our faults in our faces because if anyone has the right and ability to do so He does."​

You are so correct P4t. She claims that Jesus does not, "throw our faults in of our faces" and then in this thread she "throws in our faults face" this insult; "Makes for a lazy bunch of Calvins."

What does it mean when you do the exact same thing, that you are telling people not to do. Insincerity, not biblically sound teaching, not believable, Maybe.​

I was answering a previous post about my experience with being a Calvinist and not a hyper Calvinist. I was explaining the difference and why some don't agree with this doctrine. Will post it for you guys. Reading posts in context would help both you and preacher from mis reading people. We sent out many missionaries from our Bible Baptist Church who believed as you do. Some were what SOG would call hyper some were not. You missed my intentions when you only read part of my post.

Re: God's sovereignity and man's "freedom"...

Originally Posted by SovereignGrace

Do you for one second think God changes His mind? For someone to change their mind, it means that they learned something that caused them to change it. If God changes His mind, then He is not omniscient. But who cares about God's attributes? Many on here sure don't.




One of the reasons Calvinism is annoying is that some people decide not to pray intimately to their Father. Some figure they have God completely figured out and now they just have to keep Him there where they found Him. Since He is going to save who He will., we don't have to get out there and evangelize since if we don't go., He will send someone else. Makes for a lazy bunch of Calvins.

There are many many mysteries about God we will not be able to neatly put in a box and fold up when we want to. God is much bigger than that and His love for us grows in our understanding as we start to see Him better. His love is the same 50yrs after a person was saved as it was the moment that person got saved. But our ability to see His love changes as we grow in the faith.. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

What I said in my post that you didn't answer: Prayer changes things. Prayer and study allows us to magnify God in our lives. He has always been Great and High and lifted up but we will not see the completeness of Him here. AND YET the Holy Spirit gives us rivers of living water flowing in and through our inner most being. So we can grasp a bit of Him so as to magnify Him in our lives. We cannot make God bigger than He is but we can know Him better and more each day.

Our growing in faith is not just a suggestion but it is an admonishment for our own good. To grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. That is one of our joyful jobs here. We are responsible to do this. If we don't agree to do this., the Lord WILL NOT force us. And that is what was said in my post. And many Christians don't live up to their potential as sons and daughters while here on earth because they don't walk by faith as much as they walk by their own shortsightedness. He will not force us to love Him with all our hearts.

I think some Christians make God so far off that He is unapproachable. And Jesus said He is the one we are to look at if we want to see the nature of the FAther.

Re: God's sovereignity and man's "freedom"...
​

 

[TruthTalk]

I had forgotten about the mouthiness. It's called hypocrisy on her part but for an hyper grace heretic it means nothing, they have license to sin and deny the biblical need for believers to confess their sins. So anything goes for them, they aren't accountable to anyone.

From the roof tops wisdom shouts, what does hypocrisy shout, "nonsense"

 

[joaniemarie]

Sorry, I meant to say; "and then in this thread she, "throws our faults in our face", Please excuse thank you!

I didn't throw anything in "your faces" But it you prefer to take offence., I can't stop you or preacher. I'm no longer a Calvinist for many reasons., Not just because some take it too far. We were discussing John MacGarther too and his Lordship salvation leanings and why I don't agree with him anymore either. But thew no one under a bus.

 

[preacher4truth]

Sorry, I meant to say; "and then in this thread she, "throws our faults in our face", Please excuse thank you!

See the danger in her statement? It is a slighting of the work of the Spirit who "doesn't throw our faults in our face", as she smugly puts it, but he does examine our hearts and bring us to daily and moment by moment repentance and confession of sin. It is a denial of this work of the Spirit, and that sir is dangerous ground.

 

[TruthTalk]

Hi Joniemarie, you are a nice considerate person but after reading your post 3 times, I still say that you consistently throw accusations in peoples faces who are not here to defend themselves, and how do you know the hearts of so many people, and who are these fictitious folks you are using as an example. And then you tell everyone here that only Jesus can point out our faults, and yet your post is full of criticizing whole groups of people whom we do not know. Whats wrong with that picture?

I was answering a previous post about my experience with being a Calvinist and not a hyper Calvinist. I was explaining the difference and why some don't agree with this doctrine. Will post it for you guys. Reading posts in context would help both you and preacher from mis reading people. We sent out many missionaries from our Bible Baptist Church who believed as you do. Some were what SOG would call hyper some were not. You missed my intentions when you only read part of my post.

Re: God's sovereignity and man's "freedom"...

One of the reasons Calvinism is annoying is that some people decide not to pray intimately to their Father. Some figure they have God completely figured out and now they just have to keep Him there where they found Him. Since He is going to save who He will., we don't have to get out there and evangelize since if we don't go., He will send someone else. Makes for a lazy bunch of Calvins.

There are many many mysteries about God we will not be able to neatly put in a box and fold up when we want to. God is much bigger than that and His love for us grows in our understanding as we start to see Him better. His love is the same 50yrs after a person was saved as it was the moment that person got saved. But our ability to see His love changes as we grow in the faith.. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

What I said in my post that you didn't answer: Prayer changes things. Prayer and study allows us to magnify God in our lives. He has always been Great and High and lifted up but we will not see the completeness of Him here. AND YET the Holy Spirit gives us rivers of living water flowing in and through our inner most being. So we can grasp a bit of Him so as to magnify Him in our lives. We cannot make God bigger than He is but we can know Him better and more each day.

Our growing in faith is not just a suggestion but it is an admonishment for our own good. To grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. That is one of our joyful jobs here. We are responsible to do this. If we don't agree to do this., the Lord WILL NOT force us. And that is what was said in my post. And many Christians don't live up to their potential as sons and daughters while here on earth because they don't walk by faith as much as they walk by their own shortsightedness. He will not force us to love Him with all our hearts. ​

I think some Christians make God so far off that He is unapproachable. And Jesus said He is the one we are to look at if we want to see the nature of the FAther. ​

​

 

[joaniemarie]

Hi Joniemarie, you are a nice considerate person but after reading your post 3 times, I still say that you consistently throw accusations in peoples faces who are not here to defend themselves, and how do you know the hearts of so many people, and who are these fictitious folks you are using as an example. And then you tell everyone here that only Jesus can point out our faults, and yet your post is full of criticizing whole groups of people whom we do not know. Whats wrong with that picture?









[/INDENT]

I'm sorry you took offense at my post and I hope you will accept my apology. The reason I have a knowledge about being a Calvinist and not a hyper Calvinist is because that is the church we were raised in. Our church revered Calvin and were all 5 pointers. Some were very Calvinistic in their approach to God and our family broke off from that church eventually because we no longer saw Jesus in that way.

These are not "fictitious" folks. These were the brothers and sisters in Christ we knew and know intimately in our church for many years. And I was once one who believed in Calvinism myself. Since leaving Calvin behind., my prayer life changed too as I have been sharing here on this thread. Prayer does change things and if we don't pray., things won't happen., prayers won't be answered.

If you still believe I consistently throw accusations in people's faces I'm sorry that's not my intention.

 

[MarcR]

i have a habit of praying for days and weeks about the same things. where do we cross the vain repetition line?

IMO we don't! The Lord wants us to persist in prayer. IMO vain repetition is chanting a formula prayer with no personal meaning over and over like the hairy krishnas. (spelling intentional--- think back to the late 60s).

 

[oldethennew]

personally, we don't believe that Jesus needs assistance 'over-seas', we believe that He has it covered...
we believe that He needs His people right here, right now...more than ever...!!!

 

[SovereignGrace]

dead - nekros - properly, A. one that has breathed his last, lifeless; B. deceased, departed, one whose soul is in heaven or hell; C. destitute of life, without life, inanimate; 2. metaph., A. spiritually dead, 1. destitute of a life that recognises and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins; 2. inactive as respects doing right; B. destitute of force or power, inactive, inoperative . . . Bullinger's Lexicon - one dead, a dead person - The Scripture element in the conception of death is a judicial sentence on account of sin - is therefore used of one given over to death even during life. (a judicial sentence on account of sin - the wages of sin is death)

If Ephesians 2:1 is talking about a literal dead "corpse" - we have corpses walking around committing transgressions and sins - zombies????

Yet while we were dead in our transgressions and sins GOD made us alive because of HIS grace toward us, He demonstrated His love toward us in this: while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Because of His grace we are saved THROUGH FAITH (belief/trust) . . . . we are MADE ALIVE, we are MADE RIGHTEOUS and we are given this righteousness THROUGH FAITH (belief/trust) in Jesus Christ to ALL who believe.

It is 100% God . . . preordained, predetermined - those who believe in the only begotten Son of God shall have eternal life, i.e. saved, born again, new creatures, old passed away - SOLELY GOD'S PLAN.

As unregenerate lost folk, we were dead ppl walking. If we were not dead then we could not be resurrected from the dead. You can not resurrected that which is not dead.

 

[SovereignGrace]

John MacGarthur? Who's he?

Just shows that ppl don't know what they think they know. John MacGarthur? Pffft!!

Who's next on the hit list?

Paul Wasper?
Voddie Beauchamp?
R.C. Sprocket?
Stephen Lawyer?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Unfortunately her accusations, lies and slander is over the top. I tried to be respectful to her and her heretical teachings, then she pulls her callow drivel laden stunt.

Not sure why I take people off ignore only to put them back there.

By the way bless you for your service and proving the lies of her ilk.

Also, when exposed to the truths of Lordship Salvation that John MacArthur teaches, she flees.

 

[TruthTalk]

personally, we don't believe that Jesus needs assistance 'over-seas', we believe that He has it covered...
we believe that He needs His people right here, right now...more than ever...!!!

There are many needs for the Gospel to be preach overseas; Where my wife is from Thailand, it is 90 percent Buddhist and two percent Christian. Everything is fine if God calls you to minister your gifts right here where you are.

Who is "we", don't believe, and who is, "we" believe He has it covered', the Church?

"It will not do to say that you have no special call to go to China, you need rather to ascertain whether you have a special call to stay at home." Hudson Taylor

"The Great Commission, Matthew28:19, "go into all the world an make disciples."