[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy."[/FONT]
Has all already been fulfilled by Messiah?
- Thread starter Hizikyah
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy."[/FONT]
Luke 24:44-46, “And He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all have to be fulfilled that were written in the Law, the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me. Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, and said to them, “Thus it has been written, and so it was necessary for the Messiah to suffer and to rise again from the dead the third day.”
Has all been fulfilled already or are there still things to be fulfilled?
Has all been fulfilled already or are there still things to be fulfilled?
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
You go ahead and keep teaching people we are sanctified BY following the law. And keep them focused on themselves and their performance. Which is ALL one can do.
As for me. I will show people how to be sanctified by focusing on Christ (our position in christ) focusing on his love and forgiveness he has given you (we love because God loved us first) On focusing on serving and loving others., which takes sacrifice of self (taking up our cross) in the fact we stop trying to fill our own needs, and start to trust god to take care of our needs, on learning the fruit of the spirit by seeking after the things of the spirit. Knowing we will be tried, we will be tested, But they are for our own good, to help us be more patient, more loving, more trusting of God, and so much more. And in doing these things, WE WILL be obedient children, We WILL NOT BREAK his commands, and we will start to be Christlike. As this is what he did.
Well, if what you say is true, then we should now be living in the New Heavens and the New Earth. I already pointed out that what the Lord was speaking about was His sufferings, death, and resurrection as prophesied in the Old Testament. He was NOT referring to His second coming and how everything will be fulfilled after that.
There are several prophecies that are apparent they have not been fulfilled. Yet, people try to make them at be fulfilled.
Here is a Prophecy that everyone knows and one can see all but one of its points of prophecy have NOT been fulfilled.
Daniel 9:24..."Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."
OK..Here we see that all but one prophecy (underlined) has NOT been fulfilled. The Underlined Prophecy was fulfilled by Jesus Christ death on the Cross. to make reconciliation for iniquity.
Blade
Here is a Prophecy that everyone knows and one can see all but one of its points of prophecy have NOT been fulfilled.
Daniel 9:24..."Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."
OK..Here we see that all but one prophecy (underlined) has NOT been fulfilled. The Underlined Prophecy was fulfilled by Jesus Christ death on the Cross. to make reconciliation for iniquity.
Blade
Sir you make obedience to His Laws some anti-Christ thing, the anti-Christ is the Lawless one. Also that one has to look away from His Instructions to follow them properly type of thing, you speak falsely. We need to abide in Messiah and Messiah in us, however ignoring the Word is not the key factor for this to happen.
1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”
John/Yahanan 15:5-16, "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, produces much fruit; but without Me, you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and letting My words; abide in you, you will ask what you will, and it will be done for you. In this is My Father glorified: when you produce much fruit; and in this way you become My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you; continue in My love. If you keep My Commands, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's Commands, and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you, that My joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be complete. This is My Command: Love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: that one would lay down his life on behalf of his brothers. You are My brothers, if you do whatever I command you."
If heaven and eath has not passed, there is no abolished Law and a new set of Laws
Matt 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."
Revelation 21:1-2, "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away…"
The Command from the beginning:
1 Yahanan /John 2:3-7, “And by this we know that we know Him, if we guard His commands. The one who says, “I know Him,” and does not guard His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever guards His Word, truly the love of Yah has been perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. The one who says he stays in Him ought himself also to walk, even as He walked. Beloved, I write no fresh command to you, but an old command which you have had from the beginning. The old command is the Word which you heard from the beginning.”
Deuteronomy 6:5, “And you shall love יהוה your Strength with all your heart, and with all your being, and with all your might.”
Leviticus 19:18, ‘Do not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the children of your people. And you shall love your neighbour as yourself. I am יהוה.”
Mat 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love YHWH your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. (Deut 6:5) This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. (Lev 19:18) On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."
“all” is word #G3650 - holos - Strong's Concordance, holos: whole, complete, Original Word: ὅλος, η, ον, Part of Speech: Adjective, Transliteration: holos, Phonetic Spelling: (hol'-os), Short Definition: all, the whole, entire, Definition: all, the whole, entire, complete
D
Depleted
Guest
One thing has yet to be fulfilled. Jesus, as of yet, has not gathered all the ones his Father gave him.
We'll know when he has done that, because when he's done that, what's the point of continuing the old earth and heavens?
We'll know when he has done that, because when he's done that, what's the point of continuing the old earth and heavens?
What about the prophecies about His return, they are written in the OT and the NT yet they have not yet been completed, so how could all be fulfilled already?
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Sir you need to stop right there, I am getting a little sick of this strawman argument that everyone who does not believe obedience looks the same as you do makes obedience some anti christ thing.
If you can not be honest, and stop with this nonsense, because you are only out to prove you right and everyone else wrong. Then maybe we need to stop even talking to each other. Because I can have no more respect for you or anyone who continues to do this.
You believe we obey by following glaw
I believe we obey by other means (as I explained) and in doing those things, the law will fall in place,
that is our difference, Either admit that this is true, and say you disagree. Or stop responding to me. This anti christ nonsense is below you and reminds me of the pharisees who would not discuss anything, but attack people to make themselves look good.
D
Depleted
Guest
Oh! Thank you for this.
I truly appreciate knowing I'm not the only person you read their post, then have your say, and then tell the poster to stop responding to you. This is a habit with you. You genuinely like going into threads when you know you don't like the person so ultimately you can tell them not to respond to you, because you alone can dictate terms.
Bizarre! But nice to know you spread that around.
Good day Hizikyah,
And his commands are these:
"And this is His commandment, that we should believe in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ, and we should love one another, just as He gave the commandment to us. And the one keeping His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us: by the Spirit whom He has given to us."
We are under a new covenant, not the old. Anyone who is trusting in the keeping of the works of the law as a requirement for salvation, then they are not trusting in Christ's finished work on the cross. Jesus came to fulfill the law not perpetuate it.
And his commands are these:
"And this is His commandment, that we should believe in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ, and we should love one another, just as He gave the commandment to us. And the one keeping His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us: by the Spirit whom He has given to us."
We are under a new covenant, not the old. Anyone who is trusting in the keeping of the works of the law as a requirement for salvation, then they are not trusting in Christ's finished work on the cross. Jesus came to fulfill the law not perpetuate it.
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This is the first time I have ever said that to you, but you do make it appear as though obedience to His Laws is somehow a wrong thing. Everyday, 99% of what you post to me is about how im wrong for thinking His law is still valid and to be followed, on and on. This thread is about if everything prophecied about Messiah has already been fulfill by Him. You put doctrins into my nouth "you believe we obey by following Law" yet it seems you attach other doctrines to this. Is not stealing obedience? Is loving our neighbor obedience? Yes it is, to make another definition is falsehood.
All disagreement can be quelle in this one question and it may clear up many future debates between us:
After one has accepted Messiah is it right or wrong to follow the Law of YHWH? (not including Levitical priest but the Law mediated but Yahshua the High priest after the order of Melchizedek)
A very simple question.
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the Commands of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]and the Belief of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”[/FONT]
So only believe? so this verse that says: "[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] guarding the Commands of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]and the Belief of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif].[/FONT]" actually means to guard the command of belief anf believe in Yahshua/Jesus?
what about these also:
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:26, "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so the faith without works is dead also."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."[/FONT]
The old covenant is mediated by Levite priests, the new is mediated by Yahshua, He says:
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."
Revelation 21:1, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away." [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My teachings will not pass away.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Luke 16:16-17, "The Law and the Prophets were until John, since that time the Kingdom of YHWH is preached, and every man is pressed to enter it. But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."
So has heaven and earth passed away?
[/FONT]
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Thats because you are not listening.
I never said obedience to his laws was a bad thing, I said your view of HOW we are obedient to those commands is a bad thing. I have never said the law is no longer valid. It will be valid until it is no longer needed, But I do know people take it out of context. And that is a bad thing, not a good thing.
I never said those things were not sin, I asked why you need to keep hearing a law that said they were sin when you ALREADY KNOW THEM.
Again, you totally misunderstand the discussion. I have NEVER said obedience to the law is a bad thing.
My discussion is HOW ARE WE OBEDIENT TO THE LAW. By following the letter. Or other ways.
You keep taking my question as an attack, maybe that is why you keep misunderstanding. I can only assume, Maybe I am wrong.
I have not voted because I believe the question can rightly be answered both ways depending on perspective.
There is no question that there is still unfulfilled prophesy.
it you are referring to Mt 5:18
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
KJV
I believe the context here refers to the Law. Jesus life and self sacrifice did indeed completely fulfil the requirements, the intent, and the penalty of the Law. If it did not; it would be improper for Paul and Peter to teach that believers were no longer under Law.
There is no question that there is still unfulfilled prophesy.
it you are referring to Mt 5:18
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
KJV
I believe the context here refers to the Law. Jesus life and self sacrifice did indeed completely fulfil the requirements, the intent, and the penalty of the Law. If it did not; it would be improper for Paul and Peter to teach that believers were no longer under Law.
Hey MarcR.... I agree with your analysis for the most part but I think what Jesus stated takes it a bit further.
by taking Mat 5:17-18.."Think not that I have come to destroy the Torah and the prophets; I have not come to destroy but to fulfill.
v.18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
Marc when you take both verses together, one can see that Jesus is telling us that God's Word or any part of it (the law) including the Prophets will not pass away and all prophecies will be fulfilled UNLESS Heaven and Earth Pass happen to pass away.
one jot or one tittle is equivalent to Crossing of the 't's and dotting the 'i's in english. Therefore, not only prophets and the law will be kept but the smallest of God's WORD will still be there until every prophecy in the Holy Bible is fulfilled. Then and only then can:
Rev 21:1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea"
I think this is something the Preterist misinterpret, maybe on purpose?????
One last thing,,,The Law will always be with us. Jesus quotes some of those laws in his ministry. While we are in the Church Age/Age of Grace, the Holy Spirit will guide the true Christians away from breaking a law NOT using an unknown reference but rather using the very laws God gave Moses in the Torah.
Hope you and yours have a Blessed evening.
Blade
Hizikyah...The only way one can try to be obedient to the Laws is that if they truly believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ by Faith ALONE......Works cannot be used for receiving Salvation and the LAWS are WORKS!
IF the above criteria are met, then by all means follow whichever of God's laws you wish! Grace by Faith Alone comes first!
Only in Him can we have a heart change and submit to His will, I agree:
1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”
John/Yahanan 15:5-16, "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, produces much fruit; but without Me, you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and letting My words; abide in you, you will ask what you will, and it will be done for you. In this is My Father glorified: when you produce much fruit; and in this way you become My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you; continue in My love. If you keep My Commands, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's Commands, and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you, that My joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be complete. This is My Command: Love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: that one would lay down his life on behalf of his brothers. You are My brothers, ifyou do whatever I command you."
John/Yahanan 15:5-16, "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, produces much fruit; but without Me, you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and letting My words; abide in you, you will ask what you will, and it will be done for you. In this is My Father glorified: when you produce much fruit; and in this way you become My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you; continue in My love. If you keep My Commands, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's Commands, and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you, that My joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be complete. This is My Command: Love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: that one would lay down his life on behalf of his brothers. You are My brothers, ifyou do whatever I command you."
1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”
[h=2]Has all already been fulfilled by Messiah?[/h]
Brother Hiz,
I know where you're going with this question -- you're actually asking: Should Christians keep the Sabbath?
I don't know if ALL has already been fulfilled, but I do know that many jots and tittles have been removed from the law kept by most Sabbatarians. If we are to keep the Law then we must keep it entirely and perfectly. Seeing that this is impossible, don't you think it would be better to give ears to the apostle Paul and believe that we are under grace and not the law?
Brother Hiz,
I know where you're going with this question -- you're actually asking: Should Christians keep the Sabbath?
I don't know if ALL has already been fulfilled, but I do know that many jots and tittles have been removed from the law kept by most Sabbatarians. If we are to keep the Law then we must keep it entirely and perfectly. Seeing that this is impossible, don't you think it would be better to give ears to the apostle Paul and believe that we are under grace and not the law?