Are you saved if you are not obedient?
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I'm not trying to have it both ways. All Christians are fruitful, but not all are "equally" fruitful (Matthew 13:23). I never said that Christians have no good works at all, yet they are still saved anyway. The works that survive the fire in 1 Corinthians 3:13-15 are genuine good works, yet not all works are produced with the right motivation and are genuine fruits of the Spirit. Those works will be burned, yet the believer will still be saved. There is no contradiction between Paul and John.
HEB 12:1-2-7-8-28-29.
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses,
let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run
with patience the race that is set before us,
Looking unto Jesus The Author and Finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before Him
endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
If you endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he
whom The Father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace,
whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
For our God is a consuming fire.
definitely doesn't sound like a 'done deal'...
our walk with Jesus is a continual walk until the day we die, just like Pauls -
it's about 'walking in The Light, Over-coming, Obedience, Repentance, etc...
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses,
let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run
with patience the race that is set before us,
Looking unto Jesus The Author and Finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before Him
endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
If you endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he
whom The Father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace,
whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
For our God is a consuming fire.
definitely doesn't sound like a 'done deal'...
our walk with Jesus is a continual walk until the day we die, just like Pauls -
it's about 'walking in The Light, Over-coming, Obedience, Repentance, etc...
R
If the person in 1 Corinthians 3 had other works of precious metal and stone he would not be being saved as through fire. So we know this person Paul is talking about only has works of hay. That being true, how is it that this person is saved without having spiritual works while John says the person without spiritual works is not even born again?
Something's gotta give here, and it's the interpretation of Paul's metaphor that has to be rethought, not John' straightforward teaching. The works in 1 Corinthians 3 can't be works of personal obedience or else he would be contradicting John. Paul is not teaching that a believer can not be obedient and still be saved. He can't because John said that person is not even born again to begin with.
Something's gotta give here, and it's the interpretation of Paul's metaphor that has to be rethought, not John' straightforward teaching. The works in 1 Corinthians 3 can't be works of personal obedience or else he would be contradicting John. Paul is not teaching that a believer can not be obedient and still be saved. He can't because John said that person is not even born again to begin with.
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R
If I have trusted in Christ's forgiveness but I am living in disobedience and have no lasting works and I am not enduring, will I be saved at Christ's return despite my disobedience? Is Paul saying I am still going to be saved even though I have no lasting works of obedience that will pass through the fire?
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https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/matthew-henry-complete/1-corinthians/3.html
Matthew Henry in his commentary u see:
There are others whose works shall be burnt (v. 15), whose corrupt opinions and doctrines, or vain inventions and usages in the worship of God, shall be discovered, disowned, and rejected, in that day-shall be first manifested to be corrupt, and then disapproved of God and rejected.
Note, The great day will pluck off all disguises, and make things appear as they are: He whose work shall be burnt will suffer loss. If he have built upon the right foundation wood and hay and stubble, he will suffer loss. His weakness and corruption will be the lessening of his glory, though he may in the general have been an honest and an upright Christian. This part of his work will be lost, turning no way to his advantage, though he himself may be saved. Observe, Those who hold the foundation of Christianity, though they build hay, wood, and stubble, upon it, may be saved. This may help to enlarge our charity. We should not reprobate men for their weakness: for nothing will damn men but wickedness. He shall be saved, yet so as by fire, saved out of the fire. He himself shall be snatched out of that flame which will consume his work. This intimates that it will be difficult for those that corrupt and deprave Christianity to be saved. God will have no mercy on their works, though he may pluck them as brands out of the burning.
Matthew Henry in his commentary u see:
There are others whose works shall be burnt (v. 15), whose corrupt opinions and doctrines, or vain inventions and usages in the worship of God, shall be discovered, disowned, and rejected, in that day-shall be first manifested to be corrupt, and then disapproved of God and rejected.
Note, The great day will pluck off all disguises, and make things appear as they are: He whose work shall be burnt will suffer loss. If he have built upon the right foundation wood and hay and stubble, he will suffer loss. His weakness and corruption will be the lessening of his glory, though he may in the general have been an honest and an upright Christian. This part of his work will be lost, turning no way to his advantage, though he himself may be saved. Observe, Those who hold the foundation of Christianity, though they build hay, wood, and stubble, upon it, may be saved. This may help to enlarge our charity. We should not reprobate men for their weakness: for nothing will damn men but wickedness. He shall be saved, yet so as by fire, saved out of the fire. He himself shall be snatched out of that flame which will consume his work. This intimates that it will be difficult for those that corrupt and deprave Christianity to be saved. God will have no mercy on their works, though he may pluck them as brands out of the burning.
You're speaking of a person professing to be a believer, but evidence seems to be to the contrary. (I say seems emphatically because there is the possibility one in such a state will show evidence of salvation at some point).
Here is a biblical example of this written in the 1689 LBCoF:
3._____ And though they may, through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein, whereby they incur God's displeasure and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to have their graces and comforts impaired, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves, yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end.
( Matthew 26:70, 72, 74; Isaiah 64:5, 9; Ephesians 4:30; Psalms 51:10, 12; Psalms 32:3, 4; 2 Samuel 12:14; Luke 22:32, 61, 62 )
All true converts endure, or, are preserved/persevere to the end. It is the evidence they are born from above.
Now you are making things appear prescriptive, that is, if a person then begins to do works they will now be saved as if "Oh, I better start having some good works if I want to make it in" were the answer to the condition of the soul. That may not be your intent, but that is the conclusion. There is a fine line, we must tread cautiously here as to not misspeak or be unclear.
And this is the problem of the day, we focus too much on "entering heaven some day", effort to get there when in reality we need to seek evidence of conversion.
With all due respect you're conflating evidences of true conversion and making them prescriptive rules one must do to gain heaven. This is, at the least, where you and I may differ.
Here is a biblical example of this written in the 1689 LBCoF:
3._____ And though they may, through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein, whereby they incur God's displeasure and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to have their graces and comforts impaired, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves, yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end.
( Matthew 26:70, 72, 74; Isaiah 64:5, 9; Ephesians 4:30; Psalms 51:10, 12; Psalms 32:3, 4; 2 Samuel 12:14; Luke 22:32, 61, 62 )
All true converts endure, or, are preserved/persevere to the end. It is the evidence they are born from above.
Now you are making things appear prescriptive, that is, if a person then begins to do works they will now be saved as if "Oh, I better start having some good works if I want to make it in" were the answer to the condition of the soul. That may not be your intent, but that is the conclusion. There is a fine line, we must tread cautiously here as to not misspeak or be unclear.
And this is the problem of the day, we focus too much on "entering heaven some day", effort to get there when in reality we need to seek evidence of conversion.
With all due respect you're conflating evidences of true conversion and making them prescriptive rules one must do to gain heaven. This is, at the least, where you and I may differ.
R
I think you agree that Paul is not talking about personal works of holiness/obedience in 1 Corinthians 3. That's the point.
I will say that just because some people will see the lack of obedience in their lives and then set out to start trying to be obedient to be saved, that is no reason to not show people that they have to be obedient to be saved. The conviction of not being obedient to God is the starting place for salvation.
I will say that just because some people will see the lack of obedience in their lives and then set out to start trying to be obedient to be saved, that is no reason to not show people that they have to be obedient to be saved. The conviction of not being obedient to God is the starting place for salvation.
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What laid in the balance was the human soul,People gathered together, And held a poll,The question asked was quite open and shut,Leaving little of space for ifs, ands, or buts.I pondered the question from morning till night, Still the answer remained well hidden from sight.Then I heard a small voice from deep in my soul,Twas the voice that had saved me and made my life whole."Will you sin tomorrow ?" The familiar voice said,"Not knowing the valley or mountain ahead ?""On the journey ahead if you stumble or fall,Do what you've always done.......give me a call.""Again and again I'll help you, it's true,For when your thinking of me.....I'm thinking of you.God Bless and Merry Christmas to all. Stan
I have to wholeheartedly disagree here.
You're making being obedient to God salvation in and of itself, and/or that one realizes they are not obedient and then must become obedient to save themselves/be saved.
The Gospel doesn't preach that message at all.
With all due respect this is where certain sects go astray, they take the endings of epistles describing conversion and make it something a person has to do to earn salvation.
You are conflating prescriptive doctrine with descriptive doctrine -- therein lies your error.
The starting place for salvation is at the cross, the preaching of the Gospel wherein the lost see themselves as such, and that nothing within them can save them, that wholly upon Christ is their salvation, and he grants them faith and repentance, evidences of their conversion. Ephesians 1-2 describe this conversion process, from being called, to conversion, and the result good works.
Nothing in the Gospel being preached says anything about beginning to obey Christ, instead that is the result of the Gospel and true conversion. You're taking the endpoints of Gospel conversion, and putting it at the forefront, thus: You would write Paul's epistles and the Gospel exactly backwards beginning with conduct, then going into conversion thereby.
You're making being obedient to God salvation in and of itself, and/or that one realizes they are not obedient and then must become obedient to save themselves/be saved.
The Gospel doesn't preach that message at all.
With all due respect this is where certain sects go astray, they take the endings of epistles describing conversion and make it something a person has to do to earn salvation.
You are conflating prescriptive doctrine with descriptive doctrine -- therein lies your error.
The starting place for salvation is at the cross, the preaching of the Gospel wherein the lost see themselves as such, and that nothing within them can save them, that wholly upon Christ is their salvation, and he grants them faith and repentance, evidences of their conversion. Ephesians 1-2 describe this conversion process, from being called, to conversion, and the result good works.
Nothing in the Gospel being preached says anything about beginning to obey Christ, instead that is the result of the Gospel and true conversion. You're taking the endpoints of Gospel conversion, and putting it at the forefront, thus: You would write Paul's epistles and the Gospel exactly backwards beginning with conduct, then going into conversion thereby.
D
I already tried this approach. Funny thing. The only one who directly answered is the one who thinks he is perfectly obedient. The ones who says we "need to be obedient" as a sign of being saved, just simply refuse to notice they aren't.
[video=youtube;V9VoLCO-d6U]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9VoLCO-d6U[/video]
[video=youtube;V9VoLCO-d6U]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9VoLCO-d6U[/video]
You seem to believe that ALL of our works will either be “gold, silver and precious stones” at the Judgment Seat of Christ or “wood, hay and stubble.” You are making this out to be more complicated than it really is.
This Judgement Seat of Christ is not to determine salvation, which is by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), but rather is to determine rewards and loss of rewards based on our works. Christ is our “foundation” spoken of in 1 Corinthians 3:11. What we build upon that foundation may be “gold, silver, and precious stones” (good works) obedience and fruitfulness, dedication, spiritual service to glorify God or may be “wood, hay and stubble” (worthless, shallow activity, wrong motives with no spiritual value). The Judgment Seat of Christ will reveal this.
Saved through fire simply means as one escaping through the flames. Works that are “wood, hay and stubble” are burned up, but not the believer, he is still saved and it does not necessarily mean there were no works of “gold, silver and precious stones” at all. Those who are born of God do not practice sin (1 John 3:9), but that does not mean believers never sin at all or never produce any good works at all.
This Judgement Seat of Christ is not to determine salvation, which is by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), but rather is to determine rewards and loss of rewards based on our works. Christ is our “foundation” spoken of in 1 Corinthians 3:11. What we build upon that foundation may be “gold, silver, and precious stones” (good works) obedience and fruitfulness, dedication, spiritual service to glorify God or may be “wood, hay and stubble” (worthless, shallow activity, wrong motives with no spiritual value). The Judgment Seat of Christ will reveal this.
Saved through fire simply means as one escaping through the flames. Works that are “wood, hay and stubble” are burned up, but not the believer, he is still saved and it does not necessarily mean there were no works of “gold, silver and precious stones” at all. Those who are born of God do not practice sin (1 John 3:9), but that does not mean believers never sin at all or never produce any good works at all.
Paul and John agree that what a person decides to do is not a work of God. Only what God does in and through a person's life is a work of God
1 Co 3:10-15
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
KJV
I understand this to mean that the works law keepers and others think they are doing for God will burn away when tried by fire; but the Works that God does through a person's life will be rewarded as long as the law keeper doesn't depend on his works for Salvation.
1 Co 3:10-15
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
KJV
I understand this to mean that the works law keepers and others think they are doing for God will burn away when tried by fire; but the Works that God does through a person's life will be rewarded as long as the law keeper doesn't depend on his works for Salvation.