Are you saved if you are not obedient?

[maxwel]

I'd like to pose a question:
if being obedient is the deciding factor for being a Christian (or even if it's just a co-deciding factor), then precisely how obedient do you have to be?

Precisely how obedient must you be to be a Christian, if it depends on obedience?

Most people here don't believe they are sinlessly perfect.
So if you aren't sinlessly perfect, that means you are not 100% obedient in thoughts and deeds during 100% of every waking moment.

So if you aren't 100% obedient in thoughts and deeds during 100% of every waking moment...
just exactly HOW OBEDIENT must you be?

Must you be 99% obedient?
Maybe you only have to be 95% obedient?
Maybe it's 90% obedient.
Maybe it's 99.9% obedient.

What do you think?

If you must be obedient to be a Christian, then just precisely HOW obedient must you be?

I am NOT condoning disobedience in any way.
I just think we need to rethink causal relationships between doctrines and concepts.

So how obedient must we be?
If you were 98% obedient this week, was that enough?
Did you lose your salvation?

 

[Yonah]

I find it amazing that we as humane beings tend to completely overcomplicate matters, those of you who have had parents who love should easily understand and know the answer to this question.
We as children of the Most High have been give power to become His sons and daughters, (Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name
would it stand to reason that an aspect of this power would be a God given (through the Holy spirit) desire to please the One who gave ALL for us?
Those of us who are parents, well know that our children love us, and this love is shown through their overt desire to please us, rather through kind words, and gestures of favor and yes, obedience.
Granted they make us crazy sometimes but that mutual love still remains. seems reasonable to think the Almighty would treat us in like manner, we chastise our little ones because we love them, its the same with Him. (Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.) so obedience is willingly given as is the awesome gift of Salvation to all who would but receive it.

 

[DJ2]

I'd like to pose a question:
if being obedient is the deciding factor for being a Christian (or even if it's just a co-deciding factor), then precisely how obedient do you have to be?

Precisely how obedient must you be to be a Christian, if it depends on obedience?

Most people here don't believe they are sinlessly perfect.
So if you aren't sinlessly perfect, that means you are not 100% obedient in thoughts and deeds during 100% of every waking moment.

So if you aren't 100% obedient in thoughts and deeds during 100% of every waking moment...
just exactly HOW OBEDIENT must you be?

Must you be 99% obedient?
Maybe you only have to be 95% obedient?
Maybe it's 90% obedient.
Maybe it's 99.9% obedient.

What do you think?

If you must be obedient to be a Christian, then just precisely HOW obedient must you be?

I am NOT condoning disobedience in any way.
I just think we need to rethink causal relationships between doctrines and concepts.

So how obedient must we be?
If you were 98% obedient this week, was that enough?
Did you lose your salvation?

There is no "enough" obedience. There is just obedience.

We are not tested on how well we obey but that we obey.

When Rahab was commanded to tie a crimson cord to her window, she simply obeyed. She took a crimson cord and tied it to her window. That's all and her life was spared. How long or how reddish the cord was did not matter, just obey.

Peter was commanded to cast the net in the water, he simply obeyed. He threw the net out. That's all and he hauled in a surplus of fish. How far or how deep did not matter, just obey.

The reward was tied to the obedience. Rahab and Peter did not merit their reward but their obedience was the point of the promised reward. No percentage needed, just the heart of obedience. This is the flow and form of the entire Bible.

 

[maxwel]

There is no "enough" obedience. There is just obedience.

We are not tested on how well we obey but that we obey.

When Rahab was commanded to tie a crimson cord to her window, she simply obeyed. She took a crimson cord and tied it to her window. That's all and her life was spared. How long or how reddish the cord was did not matter, just obey.

Peter was commanded to cast the net in the water, he simply obeyed. He threw the net out. That's all and he hauled in a surplus of fish. How far or how deep did not matter, just obey.

The reward was tied to the obedience. Rahab and Peter did not merit their reward but their obedience was the point of the promised reward. No percentage needed, just the heart of obedience. This is the flow and form of the entire Bible.

You say we are not tested on "how well we obey".
But then you give 2 examples of obedience that are very tangible and specific, and which required 100% obedience to a very specific command.

So in both the case of Rahab, and Peter with the net, some "vague" or "nebulous" form of obedience was NOT what was required. They were both required to perform a PARTICULAR action at a success rate of 100%... they had to perform a particular action to a point of a 100% conclusion of that action.

So you talk about how obedience is REQUIRED, but then say obedience isn't something that is really measured, and then you give 2 examples of obedience which WERE MEASURED, because they had to be concluded in a very SPECIFIC AND MEASURABLE WAY.


There appear to be some inconsistencies in your explanation of your position.



IF obedience is the determining factor, or a determining co-factor in being a Christian;
and if humans are not sinlessly perfect,
then the problem still stands:
just precisely HOW MUCH do we need to obey in order to be considered "obedient" and thus saved.

If we cannot be sinlessly perfect, then how perfect must we be?
Must we be 99% obedient?

If obedience if the determining factor, and humans are not capable of perfectly sinless obedience...
then how obedient must we be?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You say we are not tested on "how well we obey".
But then you give 2 examples of obedience that are very tangible and specific, and which required 100% obedience to a very specific command.

So in both the case of Rahab, and Peter with the net, some "vague" or "nebulous" form of obedience was NOT what was required. They were both required to perform a PARTICULAR action at a success rate of 100%... they had to perform a particular action to a point of a 100% conclusion of that action.

So you talk about how obedience is REQUIRED, but then say obedience isn't something that is really measured, and then you give 2 examples of obedience which WERE MEASURED, because they had to be concluded in a very SPECIFIC AND MEASURABLE WAY.


There appear to be some inconsistencies in your explanation of your position.



IF obedience is the determining factor, or a determining co-factor in being a Christian;
and if humans are not sinlessly perfect,
then the problem still stands:
just precisely HOW MUCH do we need to obey in order to be considered "obedient" and thus saved.

If we cannot be sinlessly perfect, then how perfect must we be?
Must we be 99% obedient?

If obedience if the determining factor, and humans are not capable of perfectly sinless obedience...
then how obedient must we be?

According to God 100%, anything less is falling short of his glorious standard.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

"Paul said a person can have their works burnt and suffer loss (he never mentioned sin at all)"

Okay, then you don't see the works Paul is talking about as being personal works of obedience or disobedience. What do you interpret them as being?

Again I ask you, If John said a believer can’t live in sin, And paul said a persons who’s work is burned, he suffers loss but will still be saved, What is paul talking about? He CAN NOT be talking about sin, or he would be contradicting john.

I have an answer, I just would like to see you think it out. It is more powerful when you come up with it on your own (I had to do this awhile back, I know) if people just told me, I would blow them off as being unlearned. And never listen..

 

[mailmandan]

According to God 100%, anything less is falling short of his glorious standard.

All have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). So much for salvation by works/obedience/our performance. BUT the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord (Romans 6:23).

 

[mailmandan]

There are many threads about salvation being not of works, and how salvation occurs.

The other threads deal with how salvation occurs and are a merrygoround of one side saying saving faith is never void of works and one is saying you are not saved if you dont have works.
Its a never ending circle, so I wanna make a new thread with the purpose of asking a simple yes or no question.

Is an individual saved who is not obedient to Christ?

For Scripture I would bring up:

Hebrews 5:9
And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,

So in Hebrews 5:9, who obeys Him? The saved or the lost?

I've heard many works salvationists use this verse to try and support salvation by works, including Roman Catholics, Mormons and Campbellites. *Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him "after" they have been saved through faith by "keeping" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over, keep intact) His commandments and practicing righteousness (1 John 2:3; 3:9,10). *In either sense, only believers obey Him.

Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation by works (Matthew 7:22-23). *So in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.

 

[Ralph-]

Again I ask you, If John said a believer can’t live in sin, And paul said a persons who’s work is burned, he suffers loss but will still be saved, What is paul talking about? He CAN NOT be talking about sin, or he would be contradicting john.

I have an answer, I just would like to see you think it out. It is more powerful when you come up with it on your own (I had to do this awhile back, I know) if people just told me, I would blow them off as being unlearned. And never listen..

So if after believing in Christ and being saved I now start doing works to earn salvation that would not be me sinning even though those would be works of hay that get burned up? And, moreover, if those works of hay are the only works I have, I'm still going to be saved when Christ returns? How can that be if John says the person with no spiritual works is not born again?

 

[Ralph-]

All have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). So much for salvation by works/obedience/our performance. BUT the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord (Romans 6:23).

But don't forget that even though salvation is a free gift given apart from one's effort to earn it, that does not mean sin no longer condemns. Not sinning doesn't save anybody, but it still condemns. The only reason it doesn't condemn the believer is because they are abiding in Christ's forgiveness through their faith in that forgiveness.

This seems to be where people get messed up. They think sin can no longer condemn them under any circumstances after they believe and so they live sinful, disobedient lives thinking the grace of God is covering them and the only thing that will happen is they will lose rewards. And that's because they think the works in 1 Corinthians 3 are one's personal works of obedience.

 

[mailmandan]

But don't forget that even though salvation is a free gift given apart from one's effort to earn it, that does not mean sin no longer condemns. Not sinning doesn't save anybody, but it still condemns. The only reason it doesn't condemn the believer is because they are abiding in Christ's forgiveness through their faith in that forgiveness.

This seems to be where people get messed up. They think sin can no longer condemn them under any circumstances after they believe and so they live sinful, disobedient lives thinking the grace of God is covering them and the only thing that will happen is they will lose rewards. And that's because they think the works in 1 Corinthians 3 are one's personal works of obedience.

Having a license to sin is not descriptive of those who are born of God. 1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So if after believing in Christ and being saved I now start doing works to earn salvation that would not be me sinning even though those would be works of hay that get burned up? And, moreover, if those works of hay are the only works I have, I'm still going to be saved when Christ returns? How can that be if John says the person with no spiritual works is not born again?

are you just trying to be this way, or are youy really that confused.

Who is talking about working for salvation? Again I ask, If John said no one born of God can live in sin, and paul said people can , still be saved, yet have nothing to show but ashes when their works are judged. Is paul even talking about non believers?

 

[Ralph-]

I'd like to pose a question:
if being obedient is the deciding factor for being a Christian (or even if it's just a co-deciding factor), then precisely how obedient do you have to be?

Precisely how obedient must you be to be a Christian, if it depends on obedience?

Most people here don't believe they are sinlessly perfect.
So if you aren't sinlessly perfect, that means you are not 100% obedient in thoughts and deeds during 100% of every waking moment.

So if you aren't 100% obedient in thoughts and deeds during 100% of every waking moment...
just exactly HOW OBEDIENT must you be?

Must you be 99% obedient?
Maybe you only have to be 95% obedient?
Maybe it's 90% obedient.
Maybe it's 99.9% obedient.

What do you think?

If you must be obedient to be a Christian, then just precisely HOW obedient must you be?

I am NOT condoning disobedience in any way.
I just think we need to rethink causal relationships between doctrines and concepts.

So how obedient must we be?
If you were 98% obedient this week, was that enough?
Did you lose your salvation?

The obedience that results from being forgiven has a very unique quality about it. If your life is not characterized by that quality, you can not be considered to be a Christian.

 

[Muzungu256]

Ralph dear friend........ paul is talking about works (positive) u see........ what john is talking about is sin (negative).......

its not a contradiction u see.

 

[Ralph-]

are you just trying to be this way, or are youy really that confused.

Who is talking about working for salvation? Again I ask, If John said no one born of God can live in sin, and paul said people can , still be saved, yet have nothing to show but ashes when their works are judged. Is paul even talking about non believers?

Right now the only confusion I have is in the contradictory belief of the church that says the believer who has no lasting works will still be saved, while also saying the person who has no lasting works is not born again. Working for salvation was just an example of the works of hay that the church says a believer can have and they will still be saved. So, using that example of works of hay, answer the questions I asked.

"So if after believing in Christ and being saved I now start doing works to earn salvation that would not be me sinning even though those would be works of hay that get burned up*? And, moreover, if those works of hay are the only works I have, I'm still going to be saved when Christ returns? How can that be if John says the person with no spiritual works is not born again?"

*Remember, you said the works of hay in 1 Corinthians 3 are not sinning works.

 

[Ralph-]

Ralph dear friend........ paul is talking about works (positive) u see........ what john is talking about is sin (negative).......

its not a contradiction u see.

Cite an example so we can understand. I used the example of doing good things in the hope of earning salvation. Surely those are good, positive things, but which would be works of hay in your belief that get burned up, while the person himself is saved.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Right now the only confusion I have is in the contradictory belief of the church that says the believer who has no lasting works will still be saved, while also saying the person who has no lasting works is not born again. Working for salvation was just an example of the works of hay that the church says a believer can have and they will still be saved. So, using that example of works of hay, answer the questions I asked.

"So if after believing in Christ and being saved I now start doing works to earn salvation that would not be me sinning even though those would be works of hay that get burned up*? And, moreover, if those works of hay are the only works I have, I'm still going to be saved when Christ returns? How can that be if John says the person with no spiritual works is not born again?"

*Remember, you said the works of hay in 1 Corinthians 3 are not sinning works.

You have to try to see.

You have no choice, you can not make John and paul contradict each other.

John spoke of sin, a believer can not live in sin.

Paul said a believer can have his works burnt (he did not say the reason, only that they can) so you have to take them both at their word. And then ask, why can a persons work be burnt to ashes.

 

[Ralph-]

Having a license to sin is not descriptive of those who are born of God. 1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Okay, so then how does that same type of person, a person with no works, get saved at Christ's return despite the fact that he has no lasting works of precious metals?

See, you can't have it both ways. You can't say that the person with no works of metal will still be saved and then turn right around and say the person who has no works of metal is not born again. Obviously the works in 1 Corinthians 3 are not works of personal holiness/ obedience. If they are, then Paul is contradicting John.

 

[Ralph-]

The point is, you can not answer No to the OP and then interpret 1 Corinthians 3 as meaning a person can believe in Christ and have no works of rigtheousness but still be saved when Christ returns.

 

[DJ2]

You say we are not tested on "how well we obey".
But then you give 2 examples of obedience that are very tangible and specific, and which required 100% obedience to a very specific command.

So in both the case of Rahab, and Peter with the net, some "vague" or "nebulous" form of obedience was NOT what was required. They were both required to perform a PARTICULAR action at a success rate of 100%... they had to perform a particular action to a point of a 100% conclusion of that action.

So you talk about how obedience is REQUIRED, but then say obedience isn't something that is really measured, and then you give 2 examples of obedience which WERE MEASURED, because they had to be concluded in a very SPECIFIC AND MEASURABLE WAY.


There appear to be some inconsistencies in your explanation of your position.



IF obedience is the determining factor, or a determining co-factor in being a Christian;
and if humans are not sinlessly perfect,
then the problem still stands:
just precisely HOW MUCH do we need to obey in order to be considered "obedient" and thus saved.

If we cannot be sinlessly perfect, then how perfect must we be?
Must we be 99% obedient?

If obedience if the determining factor, and humans are not capable of perfectly sinless obedience...
then how obedient must we be?

My first sentence (post 203) explains my point quite well. Your question is forcing an issue/problem that is not there.

Christians are not commanded to obey "enough", they are commanded to just obey. God is quite aware of our inability to reach perfection but that does not negate the need for obedience. My examples are typical of God's commands.

"My yoke is easy and My burden is light" Matthew 11:30

Jesus does not tell us if His yoke is easy and light "enough" just that it is.

Your question on how precisely must we obey is no more valid then how precisely must one believe to be saved. We are to search the Word of God (2nd Tim. 3:16-17) and a open heart and mind will find the answer, much like the noble minded Bereans.