Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

[Locutus]

The 70 wks ended in 37 ad.

Nope.

City didn't go poof in 37 AD - read Daniel again:

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city....

"Still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest, la la la," From the "Boxer."

Just put your hands over your ears, close your eyes, and go "la la la la la la la la."

Then maybe you can hide from the truth.

Nope, got cauliflower ear from your constant pounding away..

That was fulfilled at the cross, what are you talking about?

What are you talking about Willis?

Then all scripture is not fulfilled by 70 ad, if the promises are still valid for us 2000 years later.

See, there ya go again with the daft.

You are so mixed up sometimes, what on earth are you talking about?

Sometimes it's hard to make sense of your nonsense statements - just the way it is.

 

[Locutus]

well maybe not as good an synopsis as a preterit would in fact at the point in ch.7 where he says only a carnal mind could think like that it made me wonder about the disciples asking in Acts 1 if the kingdom would be restored to Israel at that time and then I wondered about the last thing Jesus ate before he ascended,,broiled fish and honey comb,but then that’s just me.

Let them eat cake instead of broiled fish and honey..

 

[Locutus]

That reminds me of Mr. AB - the Guru of the dest of Jeru.

 

[abcdef]

Nope.

City didn't go poof in 37 AD - read Daniel again:

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city....



Nope, got cauliflower ear from your constant pounding away..

What are you talking about Willis?



See, there ya go again with the daft.



Sometimes it's hard to make sense of your nonsense statements - just the way it is.

Well Brother Locutus,

It appears that you are not serious in your discussions, and it is just a troll game for you.

I'm not going to waste my time on your selfish vanity.

 

[iamsoandso]

In Paul's letter to the Thessalonians he begins by comforting them about something they did not understand. In our day we look at one another as if we are the booger man or something if we don’t understand the things about the return of the Lord Jesus and when the Resurrection took place or will.

Anyway isn't it odd that back then they could be confused about the same issue of timing and not looked at mean or bad and today we are all pitted against one another (completely backwards of Paul’s approach on the same issue)...

 

[PlainWord]

Shrume,

Insults do not strengthen your case. And I actually did very well in math.

69 weeks of Daniel's prophesy have been fulfilled. The 70th is still future.

Perhaps the problem is with lack of historical knowledge, i.e., understanding things that have taken place? What did the angel say?

“Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city.

For the 70th week to be future, a gap would need to be taught. It isn't. Therefore we would be in like week #352. Read the text closely, the 70 weeks of years (490) were determined for Daniel's people and their holy city (Jerusalem) to accomplish certain things listed in Dan 9:24. 7 x 70 is the number of times we are to forgive a brother for the same transgression (see Mt 18:22). After 490 times, forgiveness ends and he is subjected to punishment. Did God punish the people and Jerusalem shortly after the 490 years? He sure did. Was it by fire (consummation) and war? It sure was.

After 7 and 62 weeks, meaning into the 70th week since the 69th week is over, Messiah is cut-off (on the Cross). We are told next that in the middle of week 70, "He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering." You likely think this is some future antiChrist in some future temple? But, is it?

Eph 5:2:

And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma.

Christ was the sacrifice and offering ending the need to ever sacrifice anything again. The "Prince to come" and desolate the city by consummation (fire) was Titus. It was Titus who was on the "wing of abominations" and worshiped as God on the Temple mount by his troops. This event is in the historical record.

AND now the Romans, upon the flight of the seditious into the city, and upon the burning of the holy house itself, and of all the buildings round about it, brought their ensigns to the temple and set them over against its eastern gate; and there did they offer sacrifices to them, and there did they make Titus imperator with the greatest acclamations of joy. (Josephus, War 6-6-1)

Daniel 9 has been completely fulfilled, all 70 weeks without break. All I can suggest to you is study your history and if you find fulfillment, in this case a perfect match, then quit adding gaps and looking for some future fulfillment.

 

[PlainWord]

AB,

Even you have made exceptions.
-----
Consider this,

Rome has returned as a nation.

Israel is restored to military control over Jerusalem, ending the ToG's.

The return of Rome as a nation happened in 69 AD when Vespasian took the throne after 1.5 years of civil war (Year of the 3 Emperors). Roman historians recorded that the very empire had been shaken and brought to the verge of collapse. Israel being restored to the Land in 1948 and Jeru in 1967 is nice and certainly interesting that God allowed them to be restored to the Land after 1,900 years of desolation and wandering as a people. While this is nice, there is nothing prophetic about it.

We fulfill prophecy when we become Christians.

We receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, just as it was promised/prophecy on Pentecost. Acts 2:38.Those who are far off, that's us. So prophecy is still being fulfilled.

If it makes you feel better, I can agree with this, as I assert that we go heaven upon death and do not have to wait for some future resurrection.

When did the time of wrath begin on Israel? (God's withdrawing of blessings and protection.)

It began when Israel rejected the Pentecost gospel kingdom, the natural branches were broken off, and the wild branches were grafted in.

Was the dest of Jeru the end of the wrath against the natural branches?

I believe so, yes, although apostate Israel continued to be punished throughout history including today. There is no peace in Israel as they live under constant threat and terrorism. 90% of Israelis are atheists with about 7% being orthodox still waiting for the Messiah and praying at the symbol of Rome's victory and their destruction. Only 2% are Christians. These 2% are the remaining natural branches.

How long does the time of Jacob's trouble last? (For all the pre-tribs out there, it's JACOB'S trouble, not the whole planet.)

Agreed and it ended in 70 AD for most, 73-74 AD for those at Masada. For those who continued to live in captivity or in foreign lands, they were the desolate but no longer was this Jacob's trouble.

It lasts form the breaking off of the branches, until Israel is restored to military control over Jerusalem and the ToG's come to an end.

No, the ToG ended in 70 AD when Rome completely and utterly wiped Jeru off the map like a milestone being thrown in the sea. Jeru no longer existed therefore she could not be trampled under foot. The city was gone. The rebuilt Jeru was see today is a different city with only parts of 3 Roman towers left from the city Christ walked in.

Everything doesn't have to END in 70 ad.. That is based on a faulty interpretation of one verse.

Which verse is that? The world continues with many major and noteworthy events not found in the Bible such as space travel, computers, atomic weapons, world wars, etc.

 

[PlainWord]

We disagree on almost everything. I'm firmly convinced from the Bible that Preterism is completely false. You think it's true. The probability of our coming to agree on anything is effectively zero.

You continue to be a Preterist, I'll continue to be a futurist.

Time will tell which view is correct.

2,000 years of history is on my side.

 

[PlainWord]

Paul taught the Thessalonians and Titus to watch and look for the glorious appearing of Christ. To Titus, Paul called it the "blessed hope." Was Christ to appear 2,000 years later then? What hope is that? The return of Christ (His parousia) was a strong theme in many of the NT books and letters. It was each Christian's hope to witness Christ return to punish Jerusalem and those who had been inflecting persecution on the Church.

So, why then, just a few decades later, doesn't early Christian writer, Ignatius, breath a word about Christ returning as a future event he is looking for? Instead, he looks forward to death.

"...trusting through your prayers to be permitted to fight with beasts at Rome, that so by martyrdom I may indeed become the disciple of Him "who gave Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God," [ye hastened to see me ]. - Ignatius of Antioch Letter to the Ephesians 105-115 AD.

What happened? The return of Christ was all the disciples could talk about, yet less than 80 years later, nobody in the Church is talking about it. Then in his letter to the Magnesians, Ignatius records that Christ had returned and resurrected the prophets. He speaks of Christ's return and resurrection in the past tense:

CHAPTER 9
9:1 If then those who had walked in ancient practices attained unto newness of hope, no longer observing sabbaths but fashioning their lives after the Lord's day, on which our life also arose through Him and through His death which some men deny -- a mystery whereby we attained unto belief, and for this cause we endure patiently, that we may be found disciples of Jesus Christ our only teacher -- 9:2 if this be so, how shall we be able to live apart from Him? seeing that even the prophets, being His disciples, were expecting Him as their teacher through the Spirit. And for this cause He whom they rightly awaited, when He came, raised them from the dead.

GAME, SET, MATCH!!

 

[abcdef]

AB,



The return of Rome as a nation happened in 69 AD when Vespasian took the throne after 1.5 years of civil war (Year of the 3 Emperors). Roman historians recorded that the very empire had been shaken and brought to the verge of collapse.

The same thing could be said about the assassination of Caesar and the civil war that followed at that time.

So I can't confirm that it fulfills the scripture.

Israel being restored to the Land in 1948 and Jeru in 1967 is nice and certainly interesting that God allowed them to be restored to the Land after 1,900 years of desolation and wandering as a people. While this is nice, there is nothing prophetic about it.

You agree that not all prophecy was fulfilled by 70 ad., and that the promises are still valid 1900 years later.

Why do you insist that everything will end in 70 ad?

Trying to squeeze every prophecy into being fulfilled by 70 ad is twisting scripture unto disfigured reasoning.

There are other scriptures that have not been fulfilled yet, that have still coming to pass.

Gen 1:28, The earth was not subdued by 70 ad.

Gen 3:15, Fulfilled at the cross, but points to a final defeat of Satan, sin, and death.

Gen 8:22, Shows a time when the earth will not remain, and the things mentioned will cease.

1 Cor 15:23-28, Death is not destroyed yet, people still die.

Jesus has not delivered the kingdom up to the Father yet, It is not complete yet.

If it makes you feel better, I can agree with this, as I assert that we go heaven upon death and do not have to wait for some future resurrection.

But what about the time when every knee shall bow, every tongue confess?

What about the resurrection of the wicked?

I believe so, yes, although apostate Israel continued to be punished throughout history including today. There is no peace in Israel as they live under constant threat and terrorism. 90% of Israelis are atheists with about 7% being orthodox still waiting for the Messiah and praying at the symbol of Rome's victory and their destruction. Only 2% are Christians. These 2% are the remaining natural branches.

The iron in the statue (Dan. 2) didn't end in 70 ad, it shows a time much longer than that.

Jerusalem would fall just after the iron started.

Agreed and it ended in 70 AD for most, 73-74 AD for those at Masada. For those who continued to live in captivity or in foreign lands, they were the desolate but no longer was this Jacob's trouble.

Ezek 5:12, "A sword after them", shows a time of prophecy after the dest.

The last 1900 yrs are the fulfillment of this verse, it doesn't end in 70 ad,

It is fantasy to try to have everything end there.

No, the ToG ended in 70 AD when Rome completely and utterly wiped Jeru off the map like a milestone being thrown in the sea. Jeru no longer existed therefore she could not be trampled under foot. The city was gone. The rebuilt Jeru was see today is a different city with only parts of 3 Roman towers left from the city Christ walked in.

It's about control, control over the city, the area of the city, the place of the city.

You say that there was no city left to be trampled, But where the city was, was trampled, controlled by the Romans, so that the city could not be rebuilt.

But the Romans trampled it everyday after that.

The guard towers remain as a witness to the trampling.

The trampling is about control of the location, the city site.

Which verse is that?

Lk 21:22

The world continues with many major and noteworthy events not found in the Bible such as space travel, computers, atomic weapons, world wars, etc.

The Bible is Israel and the kingdom.

I don't think that any of those things are mentioned.

They are noteworthy in the eyes of men, but not in the eyes of God.

 

[MarcR]

Locutus,

I had trouble selecting one or more posts to respond to; because I am responding to your entire line of thought.

Just as many OT prophesies have had dual or multiple fulfillments; I believe that both Matthew 24 and Revelation prophesies were indeed substantially fulfilled by Nero and Titus/Vespatian; that does not preclude an end time fulfillment which will be both contemporary with us and in our immediate future.

 

[abcdef]

Paul taught the Thessalonians and Titus to watch and look for the glorious appearing of Christ. To Titus, Paul called it the "blessed hope." Was Christ to appear 2,000 years later then? What hope is that? The return of Christ (His parousia) was a strong theme in many of the NT books and letters. It was each Christian's hope to witness Christ return to punish Jerusalem and those who had been inflecting persecution on the Church.

So, why then, just a few decades later, doesn't early Christian writer, Ignatius, breath a word about Christ returning as a future event he is looking for? Instead, he looks forward to death.

"...trusting through your prayers to be permitted to fight with beasts at Rome, that so by martyrdom I may indeed become the disciple of Him "who gave Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God," [ye hastened to see me ]. - Ignatius of Antioch Letter to the Ephesians 105-115 AD.

What happened? The return of Christ was all the disciples could talk about, yet less than 80 years later, nobody in the Church is talking about it. Then in his letter to the Magnesians, Ignatius records that Christ had returned and resurrected the prophets. He speaks of Christ's return and resurrection in the past tense:

CHAPTER 9
9:1 If then those who had walked in ancient practices attained unto newness of hope, no longer observing sabbaths but fashioning their lives after the Lord's day, on which our life also arose through Him and through His death which some men deny -- a mystery whereby we attained unto belief, and for this cause we endure patiently, that we may be found disciples of Jesus Christ our only teacher -- 9:2 if this be so, how shall we be able to live apart from Him? seeing that even the prophets, being His disciples, were expecting Him as their teacher through the Spirit. And for this cause He whom they rightly awaited, when He came, raised them from the dead.

GAME, SET, MATCH!!

Brother PlainWord,

When exactly, did the resurrection that you are referring to happen?

66 ad?, 67 ad?, etc.

Here is the problem, there was not a resurrection at, or about, the time of the dest.

The 2nd resurrection unto salvation did not happen.

It is yet to come, and then it is the end, when Jesus delivers the kingdom up to the Father.

The kingdom is not finished yet, there are still souls being added daily.

 

[PlainWord]

Brother PlainWord,

When exactly, did the resurrection that you are referring to happen?

66 ad?, 67 ad?, etc.

Here is the problem, there was not a resurrection at, or about, the time of the dest.

The 2nd resurrection unto salvation did not happen.

It is yet to come, and then it is the end, when Jesus delivers the kingdom up to the Father.

The kingdom is not finished yet, there are still souls being added daily.

Yup, the resurrection unto life happened in that time frame, 66-70 AD. This cleared out Hades from all the Saints who had died up and until that time. Since then, a resurrection (from Hades) is not needed as we are changed (from spiritual death to life) immediately upon accepting Christ. Therefore when we die, we immediately go to heaven as spiritual beings. This has been the case since the first century resurrection.

 

[PlainWord]

Locutus,

I had trouble selecting one or more posts to respond to; because I am responding to your entire line of thought.

Just as many OT prophesies have had dual or multiple fulfillments; I believe that both Matthew 24 and Revelation prophesies were indeed substantially fulfilled by Nero and Titus/Vespatian; that does not preclude an end time fulfillment which will be both contemporary with us and in our immediate future.

I certainly agree we could be coming to the end of our age. But, there is no way of knowing and no direct prophesy predicting this. But you are right, nothing precludes God from stepping in and shaking things up.

 

[PlainWord]

Gen 1:28, The earth was not subdued by 70 ad.

This happened by the time of the Flood.

Gen 3:15, Fulfilled at the cross, but points to a final defeat of Satan, sin, and death.

This passage deals only with Satan.

Gen 8:22, Shows a time when the earth will not remain, and the things mentioned will cease.

It doesn't say the earth ends, it says, "while the earth remains." It could be a billion more years. We have 3 other passages in Psalms and Ecc that has the earth abiding forever. Ecc 1:4
One generation passes away, and another generation comes; But the earth abides forever.

1 Cor 15:23-28, Death is not destroyed yet, people still die.

It is spiritual death, i.e., separation from God that Christ destroyed, "His last enemy He defeated."

Jesus has not delivered the kingdom up to the Father yet, It is not complete yet.

True, people are still being added to the Kingdom. But what makes you think the spiritual kingdom hasn't been delivered to the Father? When Christians die, do they go to heaven? Who is in heaven?

But what about the time when every knee shall bow, every tongue confess?

Does this happen on earth or upon death when one comes face-to-face with Christ, the Judge?

[SUP]10 [/SUP]But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. [SUP]11 [/SUP]For it is written:“As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God.”

What about the resurrection of the wicked?

When the "1,000 years" are up.

 

[Locutus]

Our brother AB is a master of circular reasoning - all he does is go around in circles asking the same questions over and over (that have been addressed more than once) expecting that we will see he is right or that he presents a valid argument.

I don't see an end of the world in the scriptures unless it is read into it to support a preconceived "theology".

Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

"Shall be no end" is the nearest you can come to a world and kingdom that will never end - that directly implies that people are coming into his kingdom on a continual basis.

If the world is supposed to end as all the futurist "theologies" assert then that increase would end - this is just another of the many contradictions of the scriptures promoted by these "theologies"

 

[abcdef]

Yup, the resurrection unto life happened in that time frame, 66-70 AD.

Brother PlainWord,

What is the EXACT time of the resurrection that you are saying took place at the dest o Jeru.?

This cleared out Hades from all the Saints who had died up and until that time.

That already happened when Jesus resurrected Eph 4:8-10.

Since then, a resurrection (from Hades) is not needed as we are changed (from spiritual death to life) immediately upon accepting Christ. Therefore when we die, we immediately go to heaven as spiritual beings.

I'm still undecided on this, I'm still waiting for scripture to convince me. Something more than just, "it's better to be home with God than here."

This has been the case since the first century resurrection.

Which one? Jesus or the one you say happened in or about 70 ad ish.

 

[abcdef]

This happened by the time of the Flood.

Brother PlainWord,

Please expand on your answer about how the human souls subdued the earth at the flood.

This passage deals only with Satan.

It deals with Satan, death, sin, guilt, Human souls, and is a prophecy of Jesus Gen 3:15.

And the final end to Satan, which this is showing, has yet to come.

It doesn't say the earth ends, it says, "while the earth remains." It could be a billion more years. We have 3 other passages in Psalms and Ecc that has the earth abiding forever. Ecc 1:4

One generation passes away, and another generation comes; But the earth abides forever.

Please make up your mind on which way you want to go on this,

Does the planet earth abide forever?

Or does it have an end? ("While the earth remaineth")

It is spiritual death, i.e., separation from God that Christ destroyed, "His last enemy He defeated."

Death cannot be destroyed until physical death is ended. 1 John 2:17, "And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof:..."

As long as there is flesh, there will be spiritual death, and physical death.

True, people are still being added to the Kingdom. But what makes you think the spiritual kingdom hasn't been delivered to the Father? When Christians die, do they go to heaven? Who is in heaven?

Jesus delivers the completed kingdom up to the Father, because there are no more resurrections after that.

Are you standing in the presence of God, and seeing His face right now?

No, you have to die first, and then when all physical life is ended, and all saved souls are assembled, only then can the kingdom be complete and delivered up to the Father. After death is destroyed.

Does this happen on earth or upon death when one comes face-to-face with Christ, the Judge?

[SUP]10 [/SUP]But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. [SUP]11 [/SUP]For it is written:“As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God.”

Rev 20:11-15

When the "1,000 years" are up.

There are only 2 resurrections 1 Cor 15:23-28, 23-24.

If you say that the end of the 1000 years is at 70 ad, (That would be 2, Jesus and the one you describe), then there remains another resur for the unsaved who have died since then, yet to come. That would make more than 2.

 

[abcdef]

Our brother AB is a master of circular reasoning
- all he does is go around in circles asking the same questions over and over (that have been addressed more than once) expecting that we will see he is right or that he presents a valid argument.

I don't see an end of the world in the scriptures unless it is read into it to support a preconceived "theology".

Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

"Shall be no end" is the nearest you can come to a world and kingdom that will never end - that directly implies that people are coming into his kingdom on a continual basis.

If the world is supposed to end as all the futurist "theologies" assert then that increase would end - this is just another of the many contradictions of the scriptures promoted by these "theologies"

Brother Locutus,

Both you and the pre-tribs, have the same problem,

When you get to the details, your theory falls apart.

And you and the pre-tribs, won't have an in depth discussion and answer my questions, because you know that the answers that you give will contradict your own theory.

I think that you are being harsh to a person who agrees with you about many things.

I don't make a game about the salvation of the soul and Jesus.

May Jesus bless you my brother.

 

[Locutus]

I'm not being harsh AB - you ignore the plain meanings of scripture - as I said to soandso I can't describe every bit of minutae in the scripture when the scripture itself does not do so.

You keep harping on about the "exact" timing of the resurrection - both PL and I stated it was in the time frame of the compassing of armies of Jerusalem in the 1st century - for you this description and by the way it's Jesus' description not ours is not good enough.

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

If this is not good enough for you then there is nothing more to be said that will make you happy.

I accept what is written - I don't make up scenarios to make scripture fit my theology.

When Paul stated that the resurrection was about to be I don't remove it from its first century context because it does not fit in with preconceived ideas about an exact time or manner - you do and it's a blatant ignoring of the inspired text.

Acts 24:15 having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, that there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous.

The only way to place this 2000 years past Paul's lifetime is to be dishonest with the text as it stands in a literal translation of the text.

Until this dishonesty is dealt with by yourself and other futurists you are always going to promote error and there is no way to have an honest discussion with dishonesty.

What it amounts to is lack of faith in the scripture and a more than warranted faith in your own reasoning based on preconception.