Not By Works

[Ralph-]

Well??? How can the fingers under that cute little face write the things you do? (hee-hee-hee!)

Aw, shucks. You're making me blush.

 

[Ralph-]

So you admit to saying others here are not saved. We know this, thanks for admitting you're the Luke 18:9-11 lad.

I didn't say you're unsaved, though it is still possible. I offered texts and statements to help you examine yourself and you can't handle your own medicine.

You tell others to examine themselves but couldn't even fathom examining your own self. That's simply showing more of your self righteousness. You believe 2 Corinthians 13:5 is for others, but not for you of course.

If I tell you that I have examined myself and found good you will call me self righteous? I know it's a no win with you. You are determined to destroy me.

I have the righteousness of Christ. I have examined myself and Christ righteousness shows. How about you? Are you too afraid to say you have the righteousness in Christ in your life too after all the nasty things you've said about me saying I have it in my life? Can I call you a self righteous Pharisee if you dare say you have righteousness through Christ in your life too?

 

[Ralph-]

Okay. On this subject, what surprised me was that, in spite of my lack of knowledge, I started wanting to do things I would never even have considered doing before and didn't want to do what I had taken delight in doing before. In time I got so used to this new life that sometimes, I thought I had instigated it. Within a very short time, I'd learn NOT!!!

I know in my own life that God is very good at reminding me it's not of me that good comes out of me, when it does. I will not rob God of glory and pretend I'm not different to keep from offending others who think it's self righteous to say you're different. He said to let your light shine so people would see your good deeds and glorify your father who is in heaven-Matthew 5:16.

 

[Ralph-]

Ralph,

For the record I don't see anyone here espousing doctrine that rejects the necessity of a transformed life.

What I do see clearly is you judging others as lost, but yourself as saved, and you show great disdain for others as well. Your disdain for others is not only Pharisaical, but according to 1 John it doesn't pass the test of true conversion.

Just being honest about your fruit, it isn't passing the test, so, that being said you need to start noticing yourself before you ask this prematurely of others.

Now, get your last word in, there is nothing more to say to you about things you need to heed for yourself in self examination.

People who are not changed are not saved. You have read the Bible haven't you? If you did you would know this and that it is not judging people. If it is then John and Paul and James don't pass your test of true conversion.

 

[Ralph-]

who said the prodigal son had no works? How long was the prodigal son a son before he tried to live on his own? (I was one for 5 years. Even after all my works, if I died in that time would I be lost>

1 cor 3 is talking to babes in christ. They are lost? According to paul they once were living in sin, now they are not ( 1 cor 6) is that not a work? THEY SHOWED CHANGED LIVES..

1 cor 5. That same person in 2 cor showed he repented. Why are you going to judge a persons salvation? I take your sinless that you can cast stones?

Keep trying fran who whoever you are. Your not helping yourself.

Here, your beef is with dcontroversial. Here's what he has been saying. He says you will be saved if you do not have works when Jesus comes back.

Do the people in Matthew 7 and Hebrews 6 believe only and have no works and are saved? No. It says because they have no works that they will be rejected. And all agree here that saved people will have works. So how can you say that these people will be saved with no works?

You must be dense.....ALL genuine believers have WORKED THE WORKS OF THE HEAVENLY FATHER IN BELIEF........and beyond that answer this.....What works or type of works do the following saved have...

a. The Corinthian fornicator
b. Those whose works are wood, hay and stubble
c. The thief on the cross
d. The prodigal

You can forget it.....the bible is clear....WHAT PART OF THE FOLLOWING DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND ..

NOT BY WORKS OF RKGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE HAVE DONE, BUT ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY HAS HE SAVED US... <--- past tense salvation not based upon works

You can't use him to defend being a lawless fornicator and still being saved when Jesus comes back because Paul said his flesh had to die in order for him to be saved. And we know that happened. He repented. He did not die physically. He died to the flesh and now he will be saved when Jesus returns. So you can't use him as proof that you do not have to have works and you will still be saved. He repented and had works of righteousness.



It's impossible that the works in 1 Corinthians 3 that are burned up when Jesus comes back, while the person who did those works will be saved, are the lawless works of adultery, fornication, idolatry, theft, drunkenness, and so on. We know that because 3 chapters later he says those who live lives like that will NOT inherit the kingdom of God. They will NOT be saved when Jesus comes back. So we know that the works Paul is talking about that get burned up while the person is saved can not be works of lawless disobedience. He has to be talking about other works, works of service, or else he contradicts his own teaching in the same letter in chapter 6.



He did not deny Christ in his suffering. He did nothing or said nothing to deny Him. He will be saved at the return of Christ and will get a new body that will live forever and never die, not be thrown into the furnace. He is an overcomer. You can not use him to defend living in sin and still being saved at the return of Christ because he did not sin. He was faithful to the very end. The person who says they believe but stays in their lawless life of sin is not being like he was. They will not be saved. Their lawlessness being the proof they do not know Christ. No proof here that unchanged people will be saved when Jesus comes back. He was changed. His life showed that. No comparison possible.



He repented. You can't use him as the reason why people who say they believe but who don't repent will still be saved when Jesus comes back because he repented, they didn't.



So if you're looking for Biblical proof that you can live your old unchanged life and still be saved you need to keep looking.

 

[preacher4truth]

People who are not changed are not saved.

This will be my last post to you. You've been warned enough as you sow discord and are to be avoided. But it's Christmas and I'll be gracious.

We've established this about transformation. This is why you need to examine yourself and take note. Jesus spoke of this in Luke 11:35. Take heed to the warning.

[/Quote]You have read the Bible haven't you?[/quote]

Maybe a time or two. I'm not guessing you've ever read it through yourself. Just a hunch from examining your fleshly nature toward others.

If you did you would know this and that it is not judging people.

Oh you judge people alright. And condemn them as lost into hell. You savor this.

If it is then John and Paul and James don't pass your test of true conversion.

I have no test for true conversion, that's what you do, that's your job on CC. Everyone knows you judge others as lost but yourself as saved. And when you're hit with your own medicine of examining yourself? You fold and whine as if that were only for others.

The fact remains that your own display of disdain for others witnessed on here doesn't pass the test of true conversion. No one who hates his brother has eternal life abiding in them, they're a murderer. You talk much of you, of your transformation, but that's where it begins and ends. You have much disdain for many brothers.

Now go argue with others. We're done until there is a change within you that shows some grace at work.

 

[Ralph-]

This will be my last post to you. You've been warned enough as you sow discord and are to be avoided. But it's Christmas and I'll be gracious.

We've established this about transformation. This is why you need to examine yourself and take note. Jesus spoke of this in Luke 11:35. Take heed to the warning.

You have read the Bible haven't you?

Maybe a time or two. I'm not guessing you've ever read it through yourself. Just a hunch from examining your fleshly nature toward others.



Oh you judge people alright. And condemn them as lost into hell. You savor this.



I have no test for true conversion, that's what you do, that's your job on CC. Everyone knows you judge others as lost but yourself as saved. And when you're hit with your own medicine of examining yourself? You fold and whine as if that were only for others.

The fact remains that your own display of disdain for others witnessed on here doesn't pass the test of true conversion. No one who hates his brother has eternal life abiding in them, they're a murderer. You talk much of you, of your transformation, but that's where it begins and ends. You have much disdain for many brothers.

Now go argue with others. We're done until there is a change within you that shows some grace at work.

I'm just saying what the Bible says and you disagree.....and hate me for it. Merry Christmas anyway.

 

[Ralph-]

Now, if your talking about a persons walk at a point of time. Why are you even questioning that (that is most likely DC’s context??!!)

Oh, and by the way, no. We were talking about having no works when Jesus comes back. Read our posts.

 

[Ralph-]

What works and how much works prove one's salvation?

Read Galatians 5:19-21. People who 'live like this' will NOT inherit the kingdom. I'm being called a hateful Pharisee who looks down on people for saying what the Bible says.

Galatians 5:22-24 is what saved people live like. Not perfectly of course. But they are noted for this kind of life rather than the life described in vs. 19-21.

So let's say we don't look like vs. 22-24. Do we change the scriptures and claim we can live like this and will be saved when Jesus comes back despite that it says we will not? No. If we really are saved we'll be struck in conscience and find a spiritual determination inside of us to start acting like vs. 22-24, and God will be glorified, not us. The unbeliever on the other hand will be determined to continue to think he can live like vs. 19-21 and still be saved, and hate people who say he can't.

 

[stonesoffire]

If all you have is 'belief' and nothing to show for what you believe then you haven't done the work of believing you think you have. You are a barren field that if it stays that way will be burned in the end, not harvested. Hebrews 6.

The question is to know how one works Gods work. The answer is by faith. Faith is a substance in the spiritual realm and God is drawn to. Then we are empowered to do what He has led us to. Or He gives us a request.

Im rejoicing this Christmas Eve because I just received an answer to prayer after standing in faith for a couple I love to reunite.

I had a promise. And believe me it was a battle at times to keep standing.

 

[Ralph-]

The question is to know how one works Gods work.

That's fine but actually we're talking about the question of if you can have no works when Jesus comes back and you will be saved. The Bible says no. The person who is unchanged is not a saved person. That's what the Bible says, not me, but I'm being hated and despised for saying it.

 

[dcontroversal]

Matthew 19:16-26 The Rich Young Man Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do TO GET ETERNAL LIFE?” “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS.” “Which ones?” the man inquired. Jesus replied, “‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’” “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?” Jesus answered, “If you want to be PERFECT, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, FOLLOW ME.” When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth. Then Jesus said to his disciples, “I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD.” When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “WHO THEN CAN BE SAVED?” Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but WITH God all things are possible.”


1 John 4:1 Test the Spirits Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

More blindess on your part and this does not equate to salvation earned....your dense as lead approach amazes me.....

NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE HAVE DONE, BUT ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY HAS HE SAVED US.

THEREFORE WE CONCLUDE A MAN IS JUSTIFIED BY FAITH WITHOUT WORKS (OF LAW IS INDICATED)

wake up truth and honesty!!

 

[dcontroversal]

<yawn> can you name a person who says someone can be saved and not have a changed life? You continued banter that people can actually have faith which saved yet not have works is getting old!

Same old banter Fran pushed all the time........which denies many scriptures, contexts, accounts and lays down a hard fast rule that falls way short.

 

[dcontroversal]

dcontroversial says you don't have to have works to be saved when Jesus comes back. Discuss it with him, not me.

More ignorance on your part Fran....and the inability to actually be honest with anything I have said which makes you a false witness!

 

[dcontroversal]

SAlvation can not be lost, but none have yet recieved it:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Corinthians 15:51-55, “See, I speak a secret to you: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible has to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality. And when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall come to be the word that has been written, “Death is swallowed up in overcoming. O Death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your overcoming?”

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Matthew 10:22, “And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Matt 24:12-13, “And because of the increase in lawlessness, the love of many shall become cold. But he who shall have endured to the end shall be saved.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 10:36, “For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of Yah you may receive what is promised.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 3:14, “For we have become partakers of Messiah if we hold fast the beginning of our trust firm to the end.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]For scripture interprets scripture, and nobody can preach or teach differently than what Yahshua already taught, and He Himself said He taught the doctrine of YHWH. What is promised to us is eternal life, so once again; once you have done the will of Yah in your life, in the resurrection you receive it. Not before.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 1:12, "Blessed is the man who does endure trial, for when he has been proved, he shall receive the crown of life which the Master has promised to those who love Him."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 3:21, “To him who overcomes I shall give to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT]

The second half of the first line is false......salvation is a current possession and the bible attests to this in numerous places and by verb tense....cannot you get anything right...........

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy has he SAVED US <-PAST TENSE

Right now are we the children of God, but it does not yet appear what we shall be.

Man you are just another cake taker of contradictions...geesh

 

[dcontroversal]

DC would never say a person who is saved will never have works. I have been listening to him for years now..

Now, if your talking about a persons walk at a point of time. Why are you even questioning that (that is most likely DC’s context??!!) how can a person be justified, then not justified?

She cannot help but deceive and misrepresent what people say while pushing her cafe blend false gospel of works.........

 

[dcontroversal]

BULL! I HAVE BEEN SAVED by Gods mercy (Titus 3) I HAVE BEEN GIVEN EVERY SPIRITUAL BLESSING (EPH 1) I HAVE BEEN GIVEN ETERNAL LIFE (john 3, John 4 and John 6) I have been sealed by the spirit (Eph 1) I have been given the stat of being not under condemnation because I am in Christ (rom 8)

I can go on and on, You people excusing your works based theology and all your excuses to reject the grace of God is on your heads. You explain to God why you water down his law. Water down his gospel. And reject his grace.

These lawyers and workers for cannot help but devalue the word, work and salvation of Jesus.......tragic

 

[dcontroversal]

who said the prodigal son had no works? How long was the prodigal son a son before he tried to live on his own? (I was one for 5 years. Even after all my works, if I died in that time would I be lost>

1 cor 3 is talking to babes in christ. They are lost? According to paul they once were living in sin, now they are not ( 1 cor 6) is that not a work? THEY SHOWED CHANGED LIVES..

1 cor 5. That same person in 2 cor showed he repented. Why are you going to judge a persons salvation? I take your sinless that you can cast stones?

Keep trying fran who whoever you are. Your not helping yourself.

Same old story with her.....won't be long and she will be boasting of her superior knowledge......no matter hiw she slices and dices the bible is clear......salvation is a one off eternal event by faith before one iota of work or fruit is done and the saved children of God will have every gambit of work from gold, silver and precious stones to wood, hay and stubble.....some will have maybe 1 piece of fruit and some limbs breaking due to abundance.....and this will never change the fact of how salvation was obtained by faith and faith alone!

 

[dcontroversal]

Your trying to equate glorification with justification/

I am justified, But God did not take me out, he left me here because I have a job to do. My job is to bring other people to him, If God took everyone home th moment they were saved, who would give th gospel to the world?

Your ignored the passages I gave you. Nice try. But non effective.

Par for the course with lawyers, Pharisees and workers for........if all scriptures are taken into account the truth becomes self evident and their gospels fall apart.

 

[dcontroversal]

Okay. On this subject, what surprised me was that, in spite of my lack of knowledge, I started wanting to do things I would never even have considered doing before and didn't want to do what I had taken delight in doing before. In time I got so used to this new life that sometimes, I thought I had instigated it. Within a very short time, I'd learn NOT!!!

What many cannot fathom, especially the workers for and Pharisees, is the fact that any work or fruit in a believer's life is the direct result of Christ in us and through us as a living sacrifice....