Not By Works

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Ralph-

Guest
Just passing through...

"We did not become righteous by doing good; we received righteousness as a gift.

Excerpt from a book I'm reading.
You're preaching to the choir. Everybody knows this. The issue is people seem to think this means that you can live your old life and you are saved. But John says the person who is living the old life is not born again. There's a big difference between not being perfected in Christ's love yet as a believer and not living the Christian life and living in the flesh, not even being born again to begin with.

Paul said if you 'live like this' in sexual immorality, impurity, idolatry, hatred, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, envy, and drunkenness, you will not inherit the kingdom. In other words, you are not born again. You do not know God in salvation. But many people defend the argument that you can live that way and you ARE saved and that those things do not matter if you're saved or not because salvation is not by works (which it isn't). And then they proceed to call you judgmental and hateful and beat the crap out of you for disagreeing with them about this. Even pastors are doing this.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
So your talking about legalism. That a person can be saved, Have Gods spirit. Have works, and because they did not maintain works. They have lost salvation.

So you can now STOP telling us you do not teach justification by works.

A person who is saved is saved, Jesus said they will never be lost. Will never be let go of. Will be raised not he last day, HAS eternal life. And will never die.

You think this is not true. Thats on you my friend.
Who's talking about LOSING salvation! I'm saying what you're saying.....the person who isn't changed is not born again! The born again person has works. And I'm the one who's not listening? That's funny.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
Can someone help Ralph here?He does not seem to want to listen.

DC said ALL believers have worked the works of the father, That all those people had works. And that we are not saved by works. At NO TIME did he say they would not have works and get to heaven, That is RALPHS words, not DC’s
I showed the posts where he said you can have no works and you are saved because you did the work of believing. They are not my words, they are his. Meanwhile, Paul and James and John say if you don't have works following you are not born again and you will not inherit the kingdom. Are you afraid to tell dcontroversial that he is wrong? Or are you just going to twist what he said to make it look like he didn't really say that? Remember, God is watching.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Underline in quotes is by me to point out what we'e talking about here.
So, eternally-gratefull, are you going to set dcontroversial straight? He says the examples from the Bible he cited didn't have works and are saved. And because they had no works and are saved we also can have no works and we will be saved when Jesus comes back too. You say they DID have works because that's what saved people have, which is what I've been saying but then you argue with me that I'm trying to save myself by works by believing that.

So, what are you going to do? Are you going to show him his error and explain how unchanged people are not saved people? Or are you going to change what you have said and agree with him that you can be unchanged and saved (you said saved people will have works). And if you stick with your stance that saved people are changed people will you then excuse yourself from being a self righteous works salvationist Pharisee for believing that while condemning me as one for believing what you believe?

See below

Again, you must be dense....I have stated clearly that ALL SAVED HAVE ALREADY WORKED THE WORK OF THE HEAVENLY FATHER AND MY CITED EXAMPLES WERE CORRECT...what works did the prodigal have, what works did the thief have, what works are identified as wood, hay and stubble? You know why most reject your drivel Fran...because you lie, embellish, misrepresent what is actually said and twist context so far out of context to make your invalid points....and then claim to be rightous...no wonder MOST Hammer you....very very deceptive in how you present yourself....and you can forget your deceptive accisations...EG knows I do not push the lies you accuse of!!
Twist his words all you want.. And the more you do so the more you destroy your reputation.

 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
What's interesting is how people in this thread say the true believer will have works and agree with John. But then they will roast anybody who says what John says that the person who does not have works following is not born again and does not know him.

Who is saying this.

Why do you twist everyone’s words? And then expect people to agree with you?

John said whoever sins has never seen God or known him. Thus, as we all have been saying, ALL who have been born of God WILL WORK.

Stop your lies.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
It was fun for a while, but now it's annoying. I am not Fran.

Okay, that's out of the way. Now all of you can go back to hating and despising and beating up those of us who agree with Paul and James and John that the person who lives like the devil belongs to the devil and is not born again.
well we all agree with that, So do we hate on each other?


 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Who's talking about LOSING salvation! I'm saying what you're saying.....the person who isn't changed is not born again! The born again person has works. And I'm the one who's not listening? That's funny.
so you believe a person can not lose salvation? Thats once he is given eternal life, he is secure forever?
 
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There's a big difference between the person who obeys God according to the law and seeks the forgiveness of God when he falls short and the person who does not even try to uphold the law and is sexually immoral, loves this world, and treats people badly thinking Christ's forgiveness covers him in that disobedience. The latter seems to describe the church pretty well these days I've noticed.

Please identify WHICH LAW(S) your are referring to above! Do you perhaps mean ALL SIX HUNDRED AND THIRTEEN LAWS in the Old Testament?


https://www.alltheinternet.com/?q=no+one+can+keep+all+of+the+law&ref=12222017000659&p=


https://www.alltheinternet.com/?q=613+laws+in+the+Old+Testament&ref=12192017100131&p=
 
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so you believe a person can not lose salvation? Thats once he is given eternal life, he is secure forever?

So, I take it that once a person has been "saved," that person SURRENDERS their ability to use their "FREE WILL" anymore? Is that what happened to the angel Lucifer, when he DECIDED to rebel against God ... and got cast down from heaven (TO WHERE, EXACTLY, and WHEN, with respect to Adam and Eve)? What about the 1/3 of all the angels that were cast out with Lucifer (turned satan)? I'm guessing none of those "rebelling angels" had any free will either!
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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You're preaching to the choir. Everybody knows this. The issue is people seem to think this means that you can live your old life and you are saved. But John says the person who is living the old life is not born again. There's a big difference between not being perfected in Christ's love yet as a believer and not living the Christian life and living in the flesh, not even being born again to begin with.

Paul said if you 'live like this' in sexual immorality, impurity, idolatry, hatred, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, envy, and drunkenness, you will not inherit the kingdom. In other words, you are not born again. You do not know God in salvation. But many people defend the argument that you can live that way and you ARE saved and that those things do not matter if you're saved or not because salvation is not by works (which it isn't). And then they proceed to call you judgmental and hateful and beat the crap out of you for disagreeing with them about this. Even pastors are doing this.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Seems to me Paul is saying, stop doing this. This is what you were but in Jesus your life should now be different. Go walk in it.

He did not say you are not saved to the "such were some of you".
 
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Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 11, By belief they performed an action;[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]11:1, "And belief is the substance of what is expected, the proof of what is not seen.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]11:4, "By belief, Heḇel offered to Yah a greater slaughter offering than Qayin, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, Yah witnessing of his gifts. And through it, having died, he still speaks.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]11:5, "By belief, Ḥanoḵ was translated so as not to see death, “and was not found because Yah had translated him.” (Gen 5:24) For before his translation he obtained witness, that he pleased Yah.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]11:6, "But without belief it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to Yah has to believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who earnestly seek Him.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]11:7, "By belief, Noaḥ, having been warned of what was yet unseen, having feared, prepared an ark to save his house, through which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to belief.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]11:8, "By belief, Aḇraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he was about to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.11:9, "By belief, he sojourned in the land of promise as a stranger, dwelling in tents with Yitsḥaq and Ya‛aqoḇ, the heirs with him of the same promise,"11:10, "for he was looking for the city having foundations, whose builder and maker is Yah.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]11:11, "By belief also, Sarah herself was enabled to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the normal age, because she deemed Him trustworthy who had promised.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]11:17, "By belief, Aḇraham, when he was tried, offered up Yitsḥaq, and he who had received the promises offered up his only brought-forth son,[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]11:20, "By belief, Yitsḥaq blessed Ya‛aqoḇ and Ěsaw concerning that which was to come.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]11:21, "By belief, Ya‛aqoḇ, when he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Yosĕph, and did reverence on the top of his staff.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]11:22, "By belief, Yosĕph, when he was dying, made mention of the outgoing of the children of Yisra’ĕl, and gave orders concerning his bones.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]11:23, "By belief, Mosheh, having been born, was hidden three months by his parents, because they saw he was a comely child, and were not afraid of the sovereign’s command. (Exo 2:2) [/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]11:24, "By belief, Mosheh, having become great, refused to be called the son of the daughter of Pharaoh,"11:25, "choosing rather to be afflicted with the people of Yah than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a time,"11:26, "deeming the reproach of Messiah greater riches than the treasures in Mitsrayim, for he was looking to the reward.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]11:27, "By belief, he left Mitsrayim, not fearing the wrath of the sovereign, for he was steadfast, as seeing Him who is invisible.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]11:28, "By belief, he performed the Pĕsaḥ and the sprinkling of blood, lest he who destroyed the first-born should touch them.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]11:29, "By belief, they passed through the Red Sea as by dry land, and when the Mitsrites tried it, they were drowned.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]11:30, "By belief, the walls of Yeriḥo fell, having been surrounded for seven days.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]11:31, "By belief, Raḥaḇ the whore did not perish with those who did not believe, having received the spies with peace.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]11:33, "who through belief, overcame reigns, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,"11:34, "quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became mighty in battle, put foreign armies to flight."11:35, "Women received back their dead by resurrection. And others were tortured, not accepting release, to obtain a better resurrection."11:36, "And others had trial of mockings and floggings and more, of chains and imprisonment."11:37, "They were stoned, they were tried, they were sawn in two, they were slain with the sword. They went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being in need, afflicted, mistreated,”[/FONT]
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Can someone help Ralph here?He does not seem to want to listen.

DC said ALL believers have worked the works of the father, That all those people had works. And that we are not saved by works. At NO TIME did he say they would not have works and get to heaven, That is RALPHS words, not DC’s
Amen bro.....no wonder Ralph and Fran spew the same rigmarol ....cut from the same cloth......the bible is clear and saved children of God can and will have works of every flavor...some faithful and righteous, some not so faithful and with works that to not make the cut......it is clear....and All saved have done the work of the Heavenly Father in belief.......
 
Dec 12, 2013
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So your talking about legalism. That a person can be saved, Have Gods spirit. Have works, and because they did not maintain works. They have lost salvation.

So you can now STOP telling us you do not teach justification by works.

A person who is saved is saved, Jesus said they will never be lost. Will never be let go of. Will be raised not he last day, HAS eternal life. And will never die.

You think this is not true. Thats on you my friend.
The exact same drivel Fran pushed........
 
Dec 12, 2013
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1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Seems to me Paul is saying, stop doing this. This is what you were but in Jesus your life should now be different. Go walk in it.

He did not say you are not saved to the "such were some of you".[/QUOTE\]

Exactly...........written unto the saved, immersed Corinthian assembly
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalm 11:4, "[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]is in His holy temple; [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]throne is in heaven; His eyes behold, His eyelids test the sons of men.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalms 62:9-12, “Sons of Aḏam are but a breath, Sons of men are a lie; If weighed in the scales, They are altogether lighter than breath. Do not trust in oppression. And do not become vain in robbery; If riches increase, Do not set your heart on them. The Mighty One has spoken once, Twice I have heard this: That strength belongs to Yah. And loving-commitment is Yours, O [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]; For You reward each one according to his work.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 5:28-30, “Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the tombs shall hear His voice, and shall come forth – those who have done righteousness, to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced evil matters, to a resurrection of judgment. Of Myself I am unable to do any matter. As I hear, I judge, and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own desire, but the desire of the Father who sent Me.”[/FONT]
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Mat 25:31-46, “And when the Son of Aḏam comes in His esteem, and all the set-apart messengers with Him, then He shall sit on the throne of His esteem. And all the nations shall be gathered before Him, and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats. And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the Sovereign shall say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the reign prepared for you from the foundation of the world for I was hungry and you gave Me food, I was thirsty and you gave Me drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you visited Me, I was in prison and you came to Me. Then the righteous shall answer Him, saying, ‘Master, when did we see You hungry and we fed You, or thirsty and gave You to drink? And when did we see You a stranger and took You in, or naked and clothed You? And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and we came to You? And the Sovereign shall answer and say to them, ‘Truly, I say to you, in so far as you did it to one of the least of these My brothers, you did it to Me. He shall then also say to those on the left hand, ‘Go away from Me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his messengers for I was hungry and you gave Me no food, I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, was naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me. Then they also shall answer Him, saying, ‘Master, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not serve You? Then He shall answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, in so far as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.”
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