Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

Just want to add...From what you said above reminds me that they were so set in the laws that they now also had to have their mind renewed, must of been really hard, harder for them then it is for us ...And I also know I have to understand through the Holy Spirit leading who Jesus was addressing at the time, I have just started to understand what context means ...WOW can we take things out of context...xox...

It is hard to change our thinking, especially when we trusted those who led us to those beliefs.

II know. i went through it.

 

[Chester]

Hi Chester.

I'm a little confused with the above

Salvation can be lost, we don't have to do works to keep salvation and salvation is when we are sealed by the Holy Spirit at the time of salvation.

So when does someone receive salvation?
If one can lose it as you feel then were they not saved in the first place?

Not being obtuse but points 1&3 I can't reconcile.
I agree with point 2 but struggle also how that ties in with 1&3.

Ephesians 1:13,14
[SUP]13 [/SUP]In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory

From Ephesians 1:13,14 we have that when we are converted ("trusted" and "heard") then we were sealed with the Holy Spirit. That is the third point.


John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Among other Scriptures that could be used here I chose John 3:36. Scripture teaches clearly that the one who is believing (in Christ) has eternal life, and the one who is not believing does not have eternal life. Hence I conclude that if one ceases to believe then he does not have eternal life (that is, loses salvation) - This is point # 1 above.

(See post 47115 for original three points)

 

[Hizikyah]

Hebrews 10:16, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them.”


1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Yahanan /John 2:3-7, “And by this we know that we know Him, if we guard His commands. The one who says, “I know Him,” and does not guard His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever guards His Word, truly the love of Yah has been perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. The one who says he stays in Him ought himself also to walk, even as He walked. Beloved, I write no fresh command to you, but an old command which you have had from the beginning. The old command is the Word which you heard from the beginning.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Genesis 1:1, “In the beginning Elohim created the heavens and the earth.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Deuteronomy 6:5, “And you shall love [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]your Strength with all your heart, and with all your being, and with all your might.”[/FONT][/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Leviticus 19:18, ‘Do not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the children of your people. And you shall love your neighbor as yourself. I am [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif].”[/FONT]

 

[Hizikyah]

1 John 2:24, "As for you, let that stay in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning stays in you, you also shall stay in the Son and in the Father."

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy."[/FONT]

 

[MattforJesus]

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

The law is spiritual,holy,just,and good,and we do not void out the law,but we establish the law,live up to it,the moral laws,laws of love.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

If a person hates sin,and does not want sin,by the Spirit they can abstain from sin,for a Spirit led life will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh,they will be tempted but will not sin,for they have crucified the flesh with the lusts and affections,and show the ways of the Spirit in which there are no ways of the flesh there.

In the Old Testament they could not receive the Spirit,so God had them do physical ordinances until Jesus came,and in the New Testament Jesus took away the physical ordinances,and we can have the Spirit and live up to the law,and we go by the laws of love,moral laws.

Out of faith,hope,and charity,love in action,charity is the greatest,and charity is greater than faith,and faith works by love.

Love is the fulfilling of the law,but love does not think an evil thought,and does not sin by the Spirit,and only goes by their needs,and not their wants,and helps the poor and needy if possible.

We do not void out the law through faith,but we establish the law,and the law is spiritual,holy,just,and good.

A person that hates sin,and does not want sin,by the Spirit can abstain from sin,therefore they are not under the law because their sins have been forgiven,and they are not sinning,so the law cannot touch them for prosecution.

A Spirit led life will not sin,and a person that sins is under the law,which means the law can touch them for prosecution until they repent and are led of the Spirit not wanting sin.

But many people will say they are not under the law even with sin in their life,and do not understand that only if you are led of the Spirit are you not under the law,and a Spirit led life will not sin.

If you sin,and hold unto sin,you are under the law,but if you are led of the Spirit,and not sinning,then you are not under the law.

There are many people that say they are not under the law,but you can observe their lifestyle that they hold unto sin,so they are under the law until they come to the truth that only those that hate sin,and do not want to sin,and truly repent of sin,can be led of the Spirit to be not under the law.

A Spirit led life is not under the law,for they will not sin,so the law cannot touch them for prosecution,because the law cannot apply to them if they are not sinning.





W

 

[BillG]

Thanks for that EG...I have so much to learn...I am reading the OT at the moment, so I am learning how people lived under the law, but we live under grace...I have read the NT but without reading the OT, I will never understand the NT...The puzzle is coming together, slowly but surely ...xox...

A lot of golden nuggets in the OT.
Believe it or not there is a lot of grace in the OT.
We can't separate the OT/NT but they can surely reconciled.
If they can't then it is two different Gods but we know the truth. There is only one God.

 

[Hizikyah]

A lot of golden nuggets in the OT.
Believe it or not there is a lot of grace in the OT.
We can't separate the OT/NT but they can surely reconciled.
If they can't then it is two different Gods but we know the truth. There is only one God.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 14:23-24, "[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 4:4, “But He answering, said, “It has been written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif].” (Deut 8:3)[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 7:16-17, "Yahshua answered, them, and said: My doctrine is not Mine, but His Who sent Me. If any man will do His will, he will know about this teaching, whether it comes from YHWH, or whether I am speaking of My own authority."


[/FONT]

 

[BillG]

Ephesians 1:13,14
[SUP]13 [/SUP]In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory

From Ephesians 1:13,14 we have that when we are converted ("trusted" and "heard") then we were sealed with the Holy Spirit. That is the third point.


John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Among other Scriptures that could be used here I chose John 3:36. Scripture teaches clearly that the one who is believing (in Christ) has eternal life, and the one who is not believing does not have eternal life. Hence I conclude that if one ceases to believe then he does not have eternal life (that is, loses salvation) - This is point # 1 above.

(See post 47115 for original three points)

Thanks for responding.

But when does salvation occur?
When is it guaranteed?

John 3:36
36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Seems to me he who believes has eternal life has it, those who don't do not have eternal life.

John 6:39-40
39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

If that's the case does not one fall foul of point one?
If so is Jesus lying?

So when is the guarantee of salvation commuted?

 

[dcontroversal]

I had to log in and post this;

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:14-26, “14 My brothers, what use is it for anyone to say he has belief but does not have works? This belief is unable to save him. 15, "And if a brother or sister is naked and in need of daily food, 16, "but one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” but you do not give them the bodily needs, what use is it? 17, "So also belief, if it does not have works, is in itself dead. 18, "But someone might say, “You have belief, and I have works.” Show me your belief without your works, and I shall show you my belief by my works. 19, "You believe that Yah is one. You do well. The demons also believe – and shudder! 20, "But do you wish to know, O empty man, that the belief without the works is dead? 21, "Was not Aḇraham our father declared right by works when he offered Yitsḥaq his son on the slaughter-place? 22, "Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected? 23, "And the Scripture was filled which says, “Aḇraham believed Yah, and it was reckoned to him for righteousness.” And He called him, “he who loves Yah. 24, "You see, then, that a man is declared right by works, and not by belief alone. 25, "In the same way, was not Raḥaḇ the whore also declared right by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26, “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so also the belief is dead without the works.”
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]17, "So also belief, if it does not have works, is in itself dead.

[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]24, "You see, then, that a man is declared right by works, and not by belief alone.

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] 26, “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so also the belief is dead without the works.”[/FONT]

Sure and all legalists, workers for, lawyers and Pharisees must be ignornant of simple verbiage......tell me the difference between the follow two lines of thought....

like a

is

 

[dcontroversal]

Okay, now IN CONTEXT, what does James say about the faith that can not be seen by men? "Can that faith save him?"-vs.14. The usefulness of the faith he is speaking about is, IN CONTEXT, whether or not it can save.

Can it? What do you say? What does James say? Who should we listen to?

I suggest a honest comparison between the following

that

like a

is

 

[dcontroversal]

And such were some of you,. But you were washed, But you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of Christ.

It did not say they stopped. It said they were forgiven and the sins wer4e washed away.

Unless your sinless. Every time you spout this nonsense, you condemn yourself. Because you are just as guilty as they were, in fact, as we ALL ARE.

Amen bro......Many will boast of the same thing she boasts of......bad day coming......

 

[dcontroversal]

Note eternally-gratefull talking about how the saved person will have works and then turning right around and defending the person who doesn't have works as being saved when Jesus comes back too. He can deny it all he wants but he's saying you can 'live like this' and you will inherit the kingdom while the Bible says the exact opposite.

The man at Corinth who was living in sin had to die to the flesh "so that he be saved"-vs.5. He was not going to be saved when Jesus came back had he not stopped 'living like this'.

This post (last paragraph) is ignorance in it's purest form and flat denies chastisement and embellishes salvation into something it is not........

 

[Hizikyah]

I had to log in and post this;

James 2:14-26, “14 My brothers, what use is it for anyone to say he has belief but does not have works? This belief is unable to save him. 15, "And if a brother or sister is naked and in need of daily food, 16, "but one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” but you do not give them the bodily needs, what use is it? 17, "So also belief, if it does not have works, is in itself dead. 18, "But someone might say, “You have belief, and I have works.” Show me your belief without your works, and I shall show you my belief by my works. 19, "You believe that Yah is one. You do well. The demons also believe – and shudder! 20, "But do you wish to know, O empty man, that the belief without the works is dead? 21, "Was not Aḇraham our father declared right by works when he offered Yitsḥaq his son on the slaughter-place? 22, "Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected? 23, "And the Scripture was filled which says, “Aḇraham believed Yah, and it was reckoned to him for righteousness.” And He called him, “he who loves Yah. 24, "You see, then, that a man is declared right by works, and not by belief alone. 25, "In the same way, was not Raḥaḇ the whore also declared right by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26, “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so also the belief is dead without the works.”


17, "So also belief, if it does not have works, is in itself dead.

24, "You see, then, that a man is declared right by works, and not by belief alone.

26, “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so also the belief is dead without the works.”

Sure and all legalists, workers for, lawyers and Pharisees must be ignornant of simple verbiage......tell me the difference between the follow two lines of thought....

like a

is

17, "So also belief, if it does not have works, is in itself dead.

The brother of Yahshua/Jesus wrote this. James walked with Yahshua daily and was one of Yahshua's 3 main disciples.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Galatians 2:9[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]English Standard Version[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]and when James and Cephas and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given to me, they gave the right hand of fellowship to Barnabas and me, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]#G1380 δοκέω dokeo (d̮o-ke'-ō) v., 1. to suppose, consider, imagine., 2. (by implication) to seem (truthfully or uncertainly)., 3. (by inference) to presume., 4. (also) to repute or estimate., 5. (by extension) to be of reputation, estimable. {(used only in an alternate in certain tenses)} [a prolonged form of a primary verb, δόκω dốkō of the same meaning], KJV: be accounted, (of own) please(-ure), be of reputation, seem (good), suppose, think, trow, Compare: G1166, G1209, G2309, G3543, G3049, G5426, See also: G1384[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 21:10-14, “He carried me away in the Spirit to a large, high mountain and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven. The glory of God was its radiance, and its light was like a valuable gem, like jasper, as clear as crystal. It had a large, high wall with twelve gates. Twelve angels were at the gates, and the names of the twelve tribes of Israel were written on the gates. There were three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west. The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the lamb were written on them."

James name will be on one of the 12 "[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]foundations, and the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the lamb were written on them[/FONT]"

I think he knows what he is talking about.
[/FONT]

 

[shrume]

Thanks for responding.

But when does salvation occur?
When is it guaranteed?

John 3:36
36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Seems to me he who believes has eternal life has it, those who don't do not have eternal life.

John 6:39-40
39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

If that's the case does not one fall foul of point one?
If so is Jesus lying?

So when is the guarantee of salvation commuted?

I believe the Bible speaks of our salvation in the past, present, and future.

If you're saved, you received the guarantee of salvation the moment you were born again. In that sense we were saved.

We are working out our salvation (Phil 2:12) in the sense that what we do now will greatly impact the rewards given in the future. In that sense we are being saved.

Our salvation is not realized yet. If the Lord tarries, we will all die, not having become immortal or receiving our spiritual bodies. In that sense we shall be saved.

 

[dcontroversal]

And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Interesting that Paul didn't say, BUT YOU STOPPED DOING ALL THOSE THINGS.

No, instead, he says, you were WASHED.

---

It's also interesting that his answer to sexual immorality in the same chapter, was, do you not know that your body IS the temple of the Holy Spirit?

It's very clear in this context that even sexual immorality does not stop your body from being the temple of the Holy Spirit.

---

Paul's letters are very Grace-centered, so if you wish to continue attacking the Gospel, go pick James or something else you can at least get the consolation of feeling right, if for a few.

Amen.....workers for and sinless perfectionists cannot grasp the eternal scope of salvation, justification, sealing and sanctification found in Christ by faith.....nor do they understand the outbounding grace of God, chastisment for the believer and or the source of one work or piece of fruit...........

 

[dcontroversal]

John 13:10 He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean.

Amen.................so true

 

[BillG]

John 14:23-24, "יהושע answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”


Mat 4:4, “But He answering, said, “It has been written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of יהוה.” (Deut 8:3)


John/Yahanan 7:16-17, "Yahshua answered, them, and said: My doctrine is not Mine, but His Who sent Me. If any man will do His will, he will know about this teaching, whether it comes from YHWH, or whether I am speaking of My own authority."

And your point is?
I say we can Reconcile grace with the law.
Go to the OT laws and post them, it can be done.

If you find them in the OT then post them.
You will find them.

You serve no purpose just quoting Bible verses above with my response to a post which I responded to a precious sister in Jesus who was delving into the OT and trying to reconcile it to the NT.

You post many verses about obedience but seem to lack verses about faith which leads to obedience.

 

[Chester]

Thanks for responding.

But when does salvation occur?
When is it guaranteed?

John 3:36
36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Seems to me he who believes has eternal life has it, those who don't do not have eternal life.

John 6:39-40
39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

If that's the case does not one fall foul of point one?
If so is Jesus lying?

So when is the guarantee of salvation commuted?

See below: the numbered questions are your questions or other items:

(1) When does salvation occur?

Salvation is a broad term that can be taken to mean various things. If you mean by "salvation" the moment a person is first justified, then "salvation" occurs when the person believes in Christ and thus is justified.


(2) When is it guaranteed?

I can't answer this without knowing what you mean by "guaranteed". You also need to clarify your definition of "salvation".


(3) Seems to me he who believes has eternal life has it, those who don't do not have eternal life.

Yes, Exactly what John 3:36 says.


(4) If that's the case does not one fall foul of point one?

If what's the case? Not trying to be obtuse, but I really don't know what you are trying to ask here.


(5) If so, is Jesus lying?

I really don't know; He might be sitting or standing! LOL!
Sorry I can't follow your questions here - you have a series of "if" questions here that has gotten me "lost"


(6) So when is the guarantee of salvation commuted?

I don't know what you mean by "guarantee of salvation" and so I have no idea how to answer your question

 

[dcontroversal]

So, I was just dropping by (before I got distracted) to say that I bought myself a Kindle!!! And I'm so excited to read some more!!!

Also, here's a testimony from me and a friend, this week we've both overcome two things that have been plaguing us both in different ways. Jesus delivered me from something challenging and personal and I'm just glad knowing that He never leaves me nor forsakes me, not because of my ability or inability to do what is right but because Jesus bore my inabilities, weaknesses, imperfections on the Cross and has paid for all my sins, FOREVER. This is GOOD NEWS!

Amen.........the difference between us and the workers for...we keep our eyes on Jesus and give all glory to God......they boast of self and what they do...Plenteous in number will be those who come before the Lord boasting in themselves and the works they have done.......only to be denied and cast into the proverbial lake-o-fire

 

[BillG]

It is hard to change our thinking, especially when we trusted those who led us to those beliefs.

II know. i went through it.

A shift of our paradigms

• a framework containing the basic assumptions,ways of thinking, and methodology that are commonly accepted by members of a scientific community.
• such a cognitive framework shared bymembers of any discipline or group: