Is Catholicism Christian? Are Catholics Saved?

[Ernie07]

I was born and raised a Catholic and always had a problem with venial and mortal sins. Scripturally, both are the same as a single sin will condemn you except for the saving grace of Jesus dying on the cross for your sins. Jesus died on the cross for all of your sins that you will ever commit.

Yes, I believe that, from my understanding of scripture that once you are saved you are always saved. It is not necessary to live in fear of losing your salvation if you should die with an unconfessed mortal sin. All sins are mortal sins, biblically there is no such thing as a venial sin.

Another problem area with me was the need to confess your sins to a priest in order to receive forgiveness. I don't find that to be biblical at all, all one has to do is confess your sin to the one that has the authority to forgive sin and that is God. The constant need of going to confession each time you sin has been the source of anxiety and fear for many Catholics and is totally unnecessary.

I never fully understood Holy Communion and the changing of bread and water into the body and blood of Jesus. I asked a priest once (during confession) why is it necessary to receive communion on a regular basis if the Holy Spirit already lives in your heart. Does this mean that you receive an extra portion of the Holy Spirit by performing a mere physical act? He said, "Well my son, it's a mystery".

Apparently he didn't know either. Actually, the confession was in the form of a conversation and I gave him the Reader's Digest version of the sins I had or supposedly committed during the last 25 years. He let me off easy with only a single Our Father for penance.

It has now been another 25 years since my last confession.

Hi Tourist,

Venial and mortal sins are not an easy concept especially when there seems to be conflicting Bible verses. Catholics refer to 1 John 5:16-18 where deadly (i.e. mortal) and "not deadly" (i.e. venial) sins are discussed while you may point to James 2:10-11 where failing to keep one point makes one guilty of all. Both are plausible interpretations regarding whether there are mortal and venial sins so who is correct?

Confessing sins to a priest comes from, in part, John 20:21-23 where Jesus said to His apostles, "receive the Holy Spirit, whose sins you forgive are forgiven..." Catholics believe this begins the institution of reconciliation or confession. You will disagree and provide your own verses and own interpretations, but who is the arbiter of truth? Who has the authority to decide who is correct in their interpretations? And I will admit that I both love and hate confession. I hate it because it is embarrassing, humiliating, and hard, but I love it because it is so humbling, cleansing, heart wrenching! I leave feeling on top of the world every time I go to confession.

As for the Eucharist it is necessary because Jesus said it was in John 6 and Luke 22:19 among other passages. Jesus stated that if you don't eat His flesh and drink His blood you have no life within you (John 6:53). That is at least how the Catholic Church interprets those verses. I'm sure you will have a different interpretation of those verses and so again we are left with who's interpretation is accurate? I also find it curious and a little sad when my evangelical friends discuss a personal relationship with Jesus. How can there be anything more personal then taking in Jesus as He described in John 6 and at the Last Supper? Who wouldn't want that everyday!?

The theme here is what I call the "my interpretation is better than yours" type debate. We each point to scripture and interpret it in such a way as to back up our claims. But, who is the arbiter of truth? When I was very seriously considering leaving the Catholic Church years ago it drove me crazy that there wasn't a way to definitively know the truth. Why so many denominations? Why so many versions of the truth? It wasn't until I studied the early church of the first 800-1000 years that I realized that there was just a single universal church at that time. Many heretical groups, but only one group that claimed to be that single church that Jesus described in MT 16:18. And it is easy to know what they believed because there are church council records. They believed in the Eucharist as "the body of Christ" and "the most necessary viaticum" at the moment of death. It's there for anyone to see. So if it was the truth to the single universal Church it is the truth today. That is how I came to believe that the Catholic Church of today is just a continuation of that one universal Christian Church and the Church Jesus built and protected from error.

Hope this helps. Thanks and God bless!

-Ernie-

 

[notuptome]

Mary is DEAD. Bones and ashes.. She CANNOT hear prayers, nor answer them, nor pray for anyone...

Mary is in heaven with the rest of the blood bought saints of God.

She is not an intercessor between men and God or Jesus. Only Jesus is the mediator of the New Covenant.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Ernie07]

Well Ernie, if you are happy with the RCC, no one needs to say anything more to you. But Christians outside the RCC see some very serious problems with your doctrines and practices. In fact there would not have been a Reformation if the RCC was actually true to the Word of God.

Hi Nehemiah,

I hear what you're saying about the need for reformation. Many don't even realize that for every church council that addressed faith or moral issues within the Church there was always reforms that were made as well. Like all of us, the Church, has needed and will always need constant reform (that is until Jesus returns!!). However, I think reform is very different than rebellion or schism.

The Reformation was all about personal interpretation taking precedence over the Church's interpretation so much so that 7 books were removed from the Bible and Luther even tried to add the word "alone" to Romans 3:28 while also trying to remove James...all to promote his faith alone belief system. What would you say to someone who told you that they have removed Philemon or Obadiah because they didn't really further their faith or belief system? Sacrilege now and sacrilege then.

And one last thing, it's not about being happy at all. That is actually a pet peeve of mine that too many feel they need to be entertained or "happy" as it relates to their faith. This goes for both Catholics and non-Catholics who move from parish to parish or church to church finding one that resonates with them. To me, it's all about Jesus and His truth. Can I prove, based on my beliefs, that Jesus kept His promise as it relates to MT 16:18. Am I going to that Church, His Church, and can I prove it? Everything else pales in comparison. But, what I've found is that once you possess the truth happiness is sure to follow!!

Thanks.

-Ernie-

 

[Jackson123]

Catholic behind one world government

Jesuit Extreme Oath of Induction

https://www.charismanews.com/opinio...ted-a-one-world-religion-or-a-new-world-order


https://youtu.be/5WkKmU_W8NU

 

[Ernie07]

Prayer is asking or seeking. There request are in respect to a hope of a work coming from diesembodied spirits. While the Protestants seek after our father in heaven as the one manner of communing with things that have no form as a disembodied Spirit .God is not a man as us. The Catholic have a legion of workers with familiar spirits(3500) in order to give the illusion when those leave here they still have a part in reigning with Christ of earth . Scripture calls that kind of seeking necromancy. The Jews were guilty for the same thing.

As far as are they Christians . They deny the fullness of the grace of God that should mean something?

Hi Garee,

I apologize, but I'm not quite following all that you're saying, but prayer can mean either "an earnest hope or wish" or "solemn request for help or expression of thanks addressed to God" per Merriam-Webster. To Mary and the saints we have an earnest hope for them to pray for us and to God alone do we prayer in worship. Praying to the dead was believed in the early Church as evidenced by the council of Gangra in 358 A.D. What evidence do you have to the contrary of the Church believing as you believe?

Thanks.

-Ernie-

 

[shrume]

Mary is in heaven with the rest of the blood bought saints of God.

Mary is dead, and dead people are not alive. She will be raised from the dead in the future.

The only person in heaven is Jesus Christ.

John 3:
13) And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

And if you think that only applied to people who died before Jesus' resurrection:

Acts 2:
29) Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
34) For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

She is not an intercessor between men and God or Jesus. Only Jesus is the mediator of the New Covenant.

True.

 

[shrume]

I apologize, but I'm not quite following all that you're saying, but prayer can mean either "an earnest hope or wish" or "solemn request for help or expression of thanks addressed to God" per Merriam-Webster. To Mary and the saints we have an earnest hope for them to pray for us and to God alone do we prayer in worship. Praying to the dead was believed in the early Church as evidenced by the council of Gangra in 358 A.D. What evidence do you have to the contrary of the Church believing as you believe?

It might have been believed in the early Catholic church, but not in the first century church. There is zero evidence in the Bible of believers praying to the dead, and for good reason: they are dead.

 

[Ernie07]

Roman Catholics get down on their knees and make supplications to Mary, whom they believe to be interceding for them in heaven. If you do not call that praying to Mary (and the "Hail Mary" IS called a prayer), then you are terribly misinformed, or lying.

The Hail Mary, also commonly called the Ave Maria (Latin) or Angelic Salutation, is a traditional Catholic prayer asking for the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary, the mother of Jesus. In Roman Catholicism, the prayer forms the basis of the Rosary and the Angelus prayers.​

​

​

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Hi Magenta,

I can see where you're coming from and I wrote about the 2 definitions of prayer in my response to Garee. One is in hope to receive prayers while the other is an act of worship. I guess I was more using the term "prayer" as an act of worship when I originally responded to you. Sorry about that.

I ask my family and friends to pray for me all the time and I have family and friends (Catholics and non-Catholics) who ask that I pray for them. Catholics ask Mary and the saints to pray for them in the same way. You may not believe that is possible or the correct thing to do, but please don't mistaken it for worship as with the Lord's prayer as an example where we direct that prayer to God.

As for the Hail Mary it is based on scripture (Luke 1:28) and then we ask Mary to pray for us. I'm honestly not sure what the issue is except that you may be against praying to the dead in general, which I again addressed in my response to Garee.

Thanks.

-Ernie-

 

[Ernie07]

The Catholic theology states that sacraments bring righteousness and security.

The Protestant theology will tell you that Jesus's sacrifice was simply a transaction where "justice was satisfied" on behalf of those who believe In him and salvation Is totally positional.

Both sides deny genuine purity of heart, genuine faithfulness and the real new birth. This Is why both of these two churches will still argue for ongoing sin In some form or another. Wether it's outright blatant sin or an easy forgiveness from the sin repent cycle stuff the Protestants tend to believe where you sin and pray your prayer and you're all good If you feel bad for it. Repentance Isn't penance It's ceasing of sin

It's not about what church you go or If you go to a church at all. Assess someones life the bible states you'll know them by their fruit, you'll see them displaying the character of Christ and living In love which Is the fulfillment of the commandments.

Proverbs 27:19King James Version (KJV)

19 As in water face answereth to face, so the heart of man to man

Matthew 7:16-20King James Version (KJV)

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Romans 2:28-29King James Version (KJV)

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

1 Corinthians 7:19

19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God’s commands is what counts.

Jeremiah 4:4King James Version (KJV)

4 Circumcise yourselves to the Lord, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

Hi Psalm34,

I love your thoughts on "they will know them by their fruit" as Jesus said in a parable that if a seed is planted on good soil it will yield "some 30, some 60, and some 100" (MK 4:8).

But, I must also question you as it relates to your comment about "not about what church you go or if you go to church at all". What do you make then of MT 16:18 where Jesus said that He will build His Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it? Don't you think it is absolutely critical that we align ourselves with the Church Jesus speaks of? And how do you know who that Church is if not for testing truths over time?

What I mean is that Jesus is the same today as He was yesterday and will be tomorrow. His truth never changes. By Him saying He would protect His Church that must mean from teaching error for if His Church taught error that led people in any way away from God then surely the gates of hell would have prevailed. So the truth that is espoused by anyone today must have evidence of its beliefs in the earliest church. The truth today must be the truth yesterday and tomorrow just as an untruth yesterday must be an untruth today and tomorrow. So the true test of any truth today is to ask for evidence of it being the truth yesterday (in the early Church of the first 800-1000 years).

That is why maybe church (small c) isn't so important, but Jesus' Church (capital C) is!!

I'd love to hear your thoughts. Thanks.

-Ernie-

 

[notuptome]

The Reformation was all about personal interpretation taking precedence over the Church's interpretation so much so that 7 books were removed from the Bible and Luther even tried to add the word "alone" to Romans 3:28 while also trying to remove James...all to promote his faith alone belief system. What would you say to someone who told you that they have removed Philemon or Obadiah because they didn't really further their faith or belief system? Sacrilege now and sacrilege then.

-Ernie-

The apocrypha was rejected from the bible because the books lack inspiration of the Holy Spirit. True Luther did not like the epistle of James.

The reformation was about the practice of selling indulgences and some other Romanist practices. Luther learned from the scriptures that salvation is by grace and not by works.

Rome places equal value on traditions that it places on inspired scripture. The five solas are scriptural.

Jesus is not building His church on Peter. Rome does not have an unbroken chain of succession from Peter to the present day. The pope is clearly not the Vicar of Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Magenta]

Hi Magenta,

I can see where you're coming from and I wrote about the 2 definitions of prayer in my response to Garee. One is in hope to receive prayers while the other is an act of worship. I guess I was more using the term "prayer" as an act of worship when I originally responded to you. Sorry about that.

I ask my family and friends to pray for me all the time and I have family and friends (Catholics and non-Catholics) who ask that I pray for them. Catholics ask Mary and the saints to pray for them in the same way. You may not believe that is possible or the correct thing to do, but please don't mistaken it for worship as with the Lord's prayer as an example where we direct that prayer to God.

As for the Hail Mary it is based on scripture (Luke 1:28) and then we ask Mary to pray for us. I'm honestly not sure what the issue is except that you may be against praying to the dead in general, which I again addressed in my response to Garee.

Thanks.

-Ernie-

Ernie, I am quite familiar with how Roman Catholics rationalize and justify their un-Godly practices. Equating asking people who are ALIVE with praying and asking DEAD people to pray for you is a common Catholic tactic as well. Nowhere in Scripture was anyone ever asked to make supplications to dead people. In fact, it is forbidden to try to contact the dead, whereas praying for people who are alive is condoned and promoted in Scripture. Of course the Catholic will say that Mary is not dead, but again, there is absolutely zero Biblical support for that belief, which you, as a Catholic, are given no choice but to believe.

The monstrosity that the RCC has created with their veneration of Mary is truly disturbing to those who hold to the purity of Truth found in God's revealed written Word. You my never understand or accept that. Jesus never even addressed Mary as His mother, but Catholicism has turned her into the mother of all humanity, the second Eve, and the queen of heaven. The fact that Joseph knew Mary after she brought forth her first born means they had conjugal relations following the birth of Jesus.

With all the errors your church promotes as truth, it is a wonder anyone chooses to be Catholic. I suppose all the riches and pomp and circumstance and outward trappings of religion are a draw, as is the false belief that one must be Catholic in order to be saved. Catholic apologists will lie about the fact that your popes have taught that, too.

 

[Magenta]

I must also question you as it relates to your comment about "not about what church you go or if you go to church at all". What do you make then of MT 16:18 where Jesus said that He will build His Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it? Don't you think it is absolutely critical that we align ourselves with the Church Jesus speaks of? And how do you know who that Church is if not for testing truths over time?

Another error the Roman Catholic Church holds to is that Peter is the rock that Jesus said He would build His church on, but the Greek texts make clear that Peter (masculine, Petros) is not the Rock (feminine, Petra) that the Church is built upon. God is the ONLY Rock of salvation, and this Biblical Truth is made clear in a multitude of Scriptures. Perhaps I will post some shortly

 

[Magenta]

Jesus is the Rock of our salvation. God is the only Rock of our salvation.

Psalm 78:35
And they remembered that God was their rock, And the Most High God their Redeemer.

Genesis 49:24
But his bow remained firm, And his arms were agile, From the hands of the Mighty One of Jacob (From there is the Shepherd, the Stone of Israel),

Deuteronomy 32:15
"But Jeshurun grew fat and kicked-- You are grown fat, thick, and sleek-- Then he forsook God who made him, And scorned the Rock of his salvation.

2 Samuel 23:3
"The God of Israel said, The Rock of Israel spoke to me, 'He who rules over men righteously, Who rules in the fear of God,

Psalm 42:9
I will say to God my rock, "Why have You forgotten me? Why do I go mourning because of the oppression of the enemy?"

Isaiah 30:29
You will have songs as in the night when you keep the festival, And gladness of heart as when one marches to the sound of the flute, To go to the mountain of the LORD, to the Rock of Israel.

Habakkuk 1:12
Are You not from everlasting, O LORD, my God, my Holy One? We will not die You, O LORD, have appointed them to judge; And You, O Rock, have established them to correct.

2 Samuel 22:32
"For who is God, besides the LORD? And who is a rock, besides our God?

Psalm 18:31
For who is God, but the LORD? And who is a rock, except our God,

1 Samuel 2:2
"There is no one holy like the LORD, Indeed, there is no one besides You, Nor is there any rock like our God.

Isaiah 44:8
'Do not tremble and do not be afraid; Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it? And you are My witnesses Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.'"

Deuteronomy 32:31
"Indeed their rock is not like our Rock, Even our enemies themselves judge this.

Deuteronomy 32:37
"And He will say, 'Where are their gods, The rock in which they sought refuge?

Psalm 144:1
Blessed be the LORD, my rock, Who trains my hands for war, And my fingers for battle;

Deuteronomy 32:4
"The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is He.

Psalm 92:15
To declare that the LORD is upright; He is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in Him.

Psalm 62:7
On God my salvation and my glory rest; The rock of my strength, my refuge is in God.

Psalm 28:1
To You, O LORD, I call; My rock, do not be deaf to me, For if You are silent to me, I will become like those who go down to the pit.

Psalm 31:1-3
In You, O LORD, I have taken refuge; Let me never be ashamed; In Your righteousness deliver me. Incline Your ear to me, rescue me quickly; Be to me a rock of strength, A stronghold to save me. For You are my rock and my fortress; For Your name's sake You will lead me and guide me.

Psalm 61:2
From the end of the earth I call to You when my heart is faint; Lead me to the rock that is higher than I.

Psalm 71:3
Be to me a rock of habitation to which I may continually come; You have given commandment to save me, For You are my rock and my fortress.

Isaiah 26:4
"Trust in the LORD forever, For in GOD the LORD, we have an everlasting Rock.

Psalm 94:22
But the LORD has been my stronghold, And my God the rock of my refuge.

2 Samuel 22:3
My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge, My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold and my refuge; My savior, You save me from violence.

Psalm 18:2
The LORD is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer, My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge; My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.

Psalm 95:1
O come, let us sing for joy to the LORD, Let us shout joyfully to the rock of our salvation.

2 Samuel 22:47
"The LORD lives, and blessed be my rock; And exalted be God, the rock of my salvation,

Psalm 18:46
The LORD lives, and blessed be my rock; And exalted be the God of my salvation,

To be Continued

 

[Magenta]

Psalm 19:14

Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart. Be
acceptable in Your sight, O LORD, my rock and my Redeemer.
​

Psalm 62:2
He only is my rock and my salvation, My stronghold; I shall not be greatly shaken.
​

Psalm 89:26
"He will cry to Me, 'You are my Father, My God, and the rock of my salvation.'
​

Isaiah 17:10
For you have forgotten the God of your salvation And have not remembered the rock of your refuge. Therefore you plant delightful plants And set them with vine slips of a strange god.
​

Isaiah 8:14
"Then He shall become a sanctuary; But to both the houses of Israel, a stone to strike and a rock to stumble over, And a snare and a trap for the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
​

Isaiah 28:16
Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone, A costly cornerstone for the foundation, firmly placed. He who believes in it will not be disturbed.

Psalm 118:22
The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief corner stone.

Matthew 21:42
Jesus said to them, "Did you never read in the Scriptures, 'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone; THIS CAME ABOUT FROM THE LORD, AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES'?

Mark 12:10
"Have you not even read this Scripture: 'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone;

Luke 20:17
But Jesus looked at them and said, "What then is this that is written: 'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone'?

Acts 4:11
"He is the STONE WHICH WAS REJECTED by you, THE BUILDERS, but WHICH BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone.

1 Peter 2:6-7
For this is contained in Scripture: "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER stone, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, "THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone,"

Matthew 21:44
"And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces;
but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust."

Luke 20:18
"Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces;
but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust."

Romans 9:32-33
Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

1 Peter 2:4-8
And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God, you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For this is contained in Scripture: "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER stone, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Hi Lucy,

Thank you for your heart felt post. I kind of know what you mean by saying that Catholics practice a dead religion rather than relationship and it makes me sad. I know that you disagree in the teachings on the Eucharist, but I believe that I'm taking the Lord in the most personal way imaginable as often as daily. For Catholics, who say they believe, to be so cavalier about something so important is so very sad. And priests are needed because of the sacrificial nature (albeit unbloody) of the Mass (again I realize that you don't believe in that).

As for Mary, any faithful Catholic would be offended by anyone worshiping Mary or anyone or anything other than God. Statues and icons are venerated (not worshipped) per the 8th church council in Constantinople in 869 A.D.

And thank you for including the Creed. This Creed was used by the single universal Christian Church as far back as 325 A.D. when it was created by the first church council. The Creed makes a point to use the term catholic (small c) because there was no Catholic (capital C) destinction to the church at that time, just that it was the universal church. What that universal church believed was protected as the truth per Jesus's promise in MT 16:18.

Thank you for the dialogue!

-Ernie-

Ernie,

It seems to me that a forum like this is a good place for this kind of discussion. I don't believe in airing our dirty laundry in public so to speak. I think these things should be discussed between Christians as a family in Jesus not before the world. Which is what it seems like we are doing here. I don't want to argue with my brothers before the world at large. It likely only serves to confuse the unsaved if they hear us arguing. I also don't think it's helpful for non-Catholics to insist that Catholics are not real Christians.


I don't want to turn into Oliver Cromwell but I feel strongly that this thing with the statues, saints and especially "Mary" worship is one of the most important issues within the church. I didn't find it difficult to let go of her.

I've had this conversation with Catholics before and honestly it baffles me, why the denial? Why make the claim that veneration is any different to worship? It may be a slightly milder form of worship but it is still worship.
This is my position: Veneration is worship. Worship is veneration.

So there is probably no need to go on about idol worship being wrong if the opposing viewpoint is that one doesn't believe Mary-worship is idol worship or worship at all. We can't get anywhere then. Which is why I gave up being Catholic.

My belief is that we should define things biblically not by a Papal or Vatican standard.

Kneeling before a statue is worship.
Saying "Hail Mary" That is worship
"Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death" Is asking the goddess to intercede.
I can't see how there is any room for denial.

They called her "Ever Virgin" "The May Queen" "The Queen of Heaven" These are all titles of pagan goddesses.

Please don't take my words as an attack on Mary.
I do not believe that Catholics worship Mary because I do not believe it is really Mary. The real Mary did not draw worship or adoration to herself and I don't believe she is doing so now from heaven.

What the Vatican exalts is NOT Mary, the woman who gave birth to Messiah.
It is a decieving spirit masquerading as an angel of light. A Babylonian mother goddess. Asherah, the mother goddess of the Caananites.

I remember they adorned statues of this (alleged) Mary with flowers and gold and carried her on their shoulders in procession to an altar. They kissed the statue. Kissed it! Knelt before it and cried at it's feet and claimed it had tears of it's own. How can one deny this is idol worship? It's the same ancient sin our ancestors indulged. It's harmful on a spiritual level and IMO there is no place for it in the Christian Church. We have got to move on. We are currently living under a state of grace but eventually I think King Jesus will insist.

 

[Ernie07]

Ernie, It would be better to honestly admit that Catholics do pray to Mary, rather than deceive yourself.

Salve, Regina: English and Latin

Hail, holy Queen

Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee to we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this, our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.

V. Pray for us, O holy Mother of God.
R. That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

Now when we open our Bibles we DO NOT FIND:

1. Mary designated as the Queen of Heaven
2. That she is the Mother of Mercy
3. That she is our Hope
4. That we must cry to her for help
5. That she is our gracious Advocate
6. That she is the Mother of God
7. That her prayers can make us "worthy" of the promises of Christ.

Hi Nehemiah,

Hopefully I've addressed what I meant by prayer in a few other posts, but again I don't see what the issue is in this prayer request. I consider a friend who I ask to pray for me as my advocate (e.g. supporter, promoter, etc.) just as I would consider Mary to be my advocate as I ask her to pray for me and to show me Jesus. Does this mean I don't seek Jesus directly? Of course not, but I'll take any help I can get to further my relationship with Jesus.

The issue I have with the "I can't find this in the Bible" argument is that non-Christians can use that same argument against us as it relates to the Trinity as it is also not specifically called out in the Bible. Specific to Mary being the Mother of God that was believed very early in the Church per the council of Ephesus in 431 A.D. that actually called out those that didn't believe as being non-Christians. When did the early Church of the first 800-1000 years ever deny that Mary was the Mother of God? If never, then how can you justify that not believing is the truth? On what basis other than personal opinion? If personal opinion was used as the rule of law in our legal system we'd have chaos, which unfortunately is the case regarding Christianity and the multiple versions of the truth.

And I just wanted to quickly address the "worthy" of the promises of Christ. Please don't mistake "worthy" with "earning" or "deserving". There are many instances where Jesus points out to His disciples scenarios where even believers aren't "worthy" of eternal life (Romans 11:22, Heb 10:26-29, 2 Pet 2:20-21 all talk about believers being "cut off" or of a "terrible judgement and rage of fire"). To Catholics "worthy" simply means obediently following Jesus with all your heart and enduring to the end (MT 24:13).

Hope this helps.

-Ernie-

 

[Ernie07]

Catholic means univeral, so I would say a Universal Christan is saved, but if you are talking about Roman Catholic Church, if someone places their faith fully on the RCC teachings, then no they are not saved. Reason being the Pope is the final word and is the sole representative or vicar of Christ on earth, when the Bible says that we as Christians are the representative of Christ on earth we are His ambassador and we are living epistles. The traditions of the RCC are over the Bible as well as the Pope, I remember in my first holy communion I had to resight a prayer that I believed in God and the holy RCC so that I could receive communion for the first time.

Ambassadors II Corinthians 5:20 “Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.”

Epistles II Corinthians 3:2-6 “You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.

And we have such trust through Christ toward God. Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.”

Hi Johnny,

You are kind of right when you say that the pope is the final word, but that also goes for the entire magesterium of the Church. Kind of like the pope has veto power, but most decisions of faith and morals throughout the ages have been made by a church council ratified by the pope.

Let me ask you a few questions regarding authority if I could:
1) Since most historians believe that the first epistle wasn't written until the early 50's what served as the authority for believers between 33 and 50 A.D.?
2) When were the 27 NT books officially decreed as being divinely inspired? If there was disagreement on which books should be included for some time what served as the authority for the Church during that time of disagreement?
3) Excommunications occurred in the 2nd and 3rd centuries (prior to the formal decree of the NT). If the Church wasn't authoritative then how could they decide, without the use of the NT, on what was/wasn't the truth? What gave them the power to expel anyone from the Church and who are they to say who is/isn't a Christian?

Thanks.

-Ernie-

 

[Ernie07]

hi Ernie this is one of the pray to Mary in Indonesia, I Google Translate. Not only pray to but submit, they use the word master our heart, to me It mean total submission to Mary.

The title say pray to, not asking Mary pray for, also Mary is human, how she hear billion catholic pray to or ask her to pray for

The Prayer of Submission to MaryMadah Bakti, 1991, No. 52

Santa Maria, the Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ, you are the glorious Queen of the world. be you queen of us all. Show us the way to holiness and guide us not to get lost.
Master our minds, that we may seek only the right.
Strengthen our will, so we just want the good.
Master our hearts, that we may love one another as brothers.
Take care of each of us and the whole family.
Master the whole community, all nations and the great men of the world.
May you be the ropes of all of them in a firm union.
Master the whole human race.
Pray the path of faith for those who have not known your Son, Jesus.
Help all nations unite, live in harmony and peace.
Nourish all mankind, especially those who are persecuted and persecuted.
Resist them in oppression and shine them in darkness, in order to remain faithful to Jesus, your Son.
Please submit all our requests to your Son, the Royal Monarch of peace, where every prayer of petition is granted, every burden of the heart is lightened and all weaknesses healed.
may those who know His power and put His hope in Him. at times see the splendor of your Son's kingdom, which with the Father and the Holy Spirit lives and reigns, now and throughout time. Amen​

Hi Jackson123,

Thank you for sharing that prayer, but unfortunately I'm not familiar at all with it so it's kind of hard for me to comment too much. All I do know is that the Catholic faith doesn't, in any way, believe that we should submit to Mary. I don't see the word "submit" in this prayer and I don't know what context or what may have been lost in the translation as it relates to the word "master". All I know is that it doesn't mean that Mary is our master similar to how I would say that Jesus is my master. If that is what it is saying it is contradictory to Catholic teaching.

It seems odd that the prayer is asking Mary to pray for people to get on the right faith path toward Jesus and to be faithful to Jesus if in fact she's the master. Mary is clearly subordinate in that she is submitting our requests to Jesus so that we may know the splendor of His kingdom. Now if the prayer stated Mary's kingdom or Mary as the Royal Monarch of peace then I'd condemn this, but I don't see that.

To me, there just seems to be a misunderstanding between honoring someone in the greatest manner possible and worshiping as God. The Bible clearly states that "all generations shall call (Mary) blessed" (Luke 1:48). The honor and blessedness that Catholics give to Mary seems to be badly misunderstood as worship. Maybe it's misinformed individual Catholics that misunderstand their own faith, but no knowledgeable Catholic believes that we worship anyone other than our Triune God.

-Ernie-

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Ernie,

If I may interject, the early believers had the scriptures from Genesis to Malachi. If you look at Acts 17,


In Thessalonica

17 When Paul and his companions had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a Jewish synagogue. 2 As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,3 explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead. “This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah,” he said.4 Some of the Jews were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a large number of God-fearing Greeks and quite a few prominent women.

Further on, same chapter-

11 Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. 12 As a result, many of them believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men.

*
Relative to this subject, Jeremiah Chapter 7 talks about Israel participating in rituals to honour The Queen of Heaven
and how it provokes The Lord to anger. Jeremiah 7: 17-19

 

[Ernie07]

Mary is DEAD. Bones and ashes.. She CANNOT hear prayers, nor answer them, nor pray for anyone...

Hi Blue Ladybug,

If I were using my limited knowledge as a human I would agree with you...similar to how I might say that there is no way that Jesus could have passed through the locked upper room door because humans can't do that. I believe I will be amazed at how little I knew when I enter heaven.

All I can say is that the early Church per the council of Gangra in 358 A.D. excommunicated those who refused to believe in Holy Days for saints. The early Church believed that we could and should ask the saints in heaven for their prayers. Who in the early Church believed as you believe?

Thanks.

-Ernie-