Revelation 14:4

[posthuman]

if one takes this view, then obviously your question about the meaning of the virginity of the 144k becomes also a symbolic one, because if the 144k are actually one and the same with the great multitude from all peoples, all the saved believers, then all those are obviously not physically virgins. so in that case, symbolically the general view that goes along with this one is that virginity refers to not having participated in what is symbolic adultery: having other Gods.

a word on why ((in this symbolism)) not being an idolater makes these people 'virgins' rather than just 'not adulterers' --
idolatry is called adultery spiritually in the context of Israel and the Father, and directly correlates to the symbolism of Israel being the wife of YHWH. we have a similar but distinctly different symbolism with the whole flock of the Lord's sheep however, in the form of the church being the betrothed bride of Christ. Israel went through the whole Hebrew marriage ceremony with God symbolically, but the church has not - we are near the end of the ceremony, waiting for the groom to come 'at an hour only the father knows' ((as the traditional ceremony goes)) to snatch away the bride. then the marriage feast. then the consummation. so 'cheating' on God, symbolically, by idolatry, in the case of Israel, makes one an adulterer. 'cheating' on God, symbolically, by idolatry, in the case of the Church, is not adultery because the marriage ceremony has not yet been completed. it makes one symbolically a fornicator, rather than an adulterer, and conversely, faithfulness would make Israel a righteous wife - but not a virgin - and would make the Bride of Christ a chaste virgin maiden.

 

[Willie-T]

a word on why ((in this symbolism)) not being an idolater makes these people 'virgins' rather than just 'not adulterers' --
idolatry is called adultery spiritually in the context of Israel and the Father, and directly correlates to the symbolism of Israel being the wife of YHWH. we have a similar but distinctly different symbolism with the whole flock of the Lord's sheep however, in the form of the church being the betrothed bride of Christ. Israel went through the whole Hebrew marriage ceremony with God symbolically, but the church has not - we are near the end of the ceremony, waiting for the groom to come 'at an hour only the father knows' ((as the traditional ceremony goes)) to snatch away the bride. then the marriage feast. then the consummation. so 'cheating' on God, symbolically, by idolatry, in the case of Israel, makes one an adulterer. 'cheating' on God, symbolically, by idolatry, in the case of the Church, is not adultery because the marriage ceremony has not yet been completed. it makes one symbolically a fornicator, rather than an adulterer, and conversely, faithfulness would make Israel a righteous wife - but not a virgin - and would make the Bride of Christ a chaste virgin maiden.

You've been doing some very astute reading.

 

[Ezekiel8]

Along these same lines, I think it was just yesterday someone here was saying that a Jewish male wasn't considered much of a man it he didn't marry and become the head of a house.

A lot of interesting side things in that one little verse.

Lol never heard that one before. Poor male virgins, see, they don't get much comfort in this world. They deserve their reward at the end of time.

 

[Willie-T]

Great thread! But, it's bedtime for me.

 

[posthuman]

Lol that's a funny attempt, except that the first five words of verse one of that chapter seems to nullify that theory.

Fun though to think about.

awesome. so the next two words in that chapter ((14, right?)), the 6th and 7th in English - the Lamb standing on mt. Zion - that's literal?
an actual young sheep standing on Mt. Zion with the literal 144,000 Israelite virgin men in their 20's. men who follow this literal sheep everywhere he goes. how literal is literal?

just pokin atcha man. another fun thing for you to think about enjoy!

i didn't make this view up; i'm doing a poor job of relating what i've heard from more than one pulpit that preaches sound gospel truth. other pulpits just as sound in their preaching of the gospel also teach very different eschatological views.

have you heard a literalist explanation for why the tribes are listed with exactly the names in exactly the order given in Revelation 7 .. ? or any explanation at all that doesn't assume it's just a random, insignificant list? i'd love to hear it, because while i in no way whatsoever claim to have anything close to a settled understanding of Revelation, i am very much convinced that details like this list of tribes are not at all accidental, and as i said, the view i tried to present is the only one in which i've ever heard a recognition of the peculiarity of this list and an attempt at its interpretation.

 

[Adstar]

The difficulty is the question as to why it would even be used, at all........ since it is never used this way anywhere else. If "defiled" doesn't mean a whole lot more than simply being a virgin, why use it at all?

The verse does not say virgins are defiled.... It says they are undefiled..

 

[Ezekiel8]

awesome. so the next two words in that chapter ((14, right?)), the 6th and 7th in English - the Lamb standing on mt. Zion - that's literal?
an actual young sheep standing on Mt. Zion with the literal 144,000 Israelite virgin men in their 20's. men who follow this literal sheep everywhere he goes. how literal is literal?

just pokin atcha man. another fun thing for you to think about enjoy!

i didn't make this view up; i'm doing a poor job of relating what i've heard from more than one pulpit that preaches sound gospel truth. other pulpits just as sound in their preaching of the gospel also teach very different eschatological views.

have you heard a literalist explanation for why the tribes are listed with exactly the names in exactly the order given in Revelation 7 .. ? or any explanation at all that doesn't assume it's just a random, insignificant list? i'd love to hear it, because while i in no way whatsoever claim to have anything close to a settled understanding of Revelation, i am very much convinced that details like this list of tribes are not at all accidental, and as i said, the view i tried to present is the only one in which i've ever heard a recognition of the peculiarity of this list and an attempt at its interpretation.

Yup, it is literal.

Lol I know you didn't make it up, I've heard this view before, and it is insightful for sure, but I don't think on the whole that it actually holds together in light of the scriptures. Nor did I make mine up, for the Bible was written well before my father and mother conceived me like Psalm 51.

On Revelation 7 and the ordering of the tribes, I don't think it is random or insignificant, for like Willie said, even just one little verse can yield many interesting thoughts. I don't totally know why, but if I venture a guess and explanation for you I would say it goes by the wives and birthrights. You will notice the ordering is somewhat similar to Genesis 29 and 30 if you keep in mind the birthrights and their changing.

For me it seems Judah is mentioned first since he supplanted Reuben whom is the actual firstborn of Leah and so Reuben is reckoned second. For Reuben opened the matrix first, but Judah took the birthright.

Then Gad for he is the one the opened the matrix of Zilpah the slave of Leah. Then Asher was born to Zilpah.

Then one can't help but notice Dan's absence, which of course is a big speculation amongst scholars, but nevertheless that's a whole other topic. Then you have Naphtali, born to Bilhah, Rachel's slave. Then you have Manasseh, the son of Joseph, the son of Rachel, but he is a half-tribe.

Then you return to Leah with her four sons in birth order, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, and Zebulun

Then we return to Rachel; Joseph and Benjamin.

I could be wrong though, but certainly that is an interesting thing to think of and inspire a search into the scriptures, so either way, thank you for the idea.

 

[Ezekiel8]

Well I think I will retire also for the night. I liked this topic a lot, one of the better Bible studies on here that I have read, and also participated in. The only thing that really put a quibble my dribble was no one liked the Robert Palmer reference. Like really? Some your were even alive then! Lol since it is a miscellaneous topic, I'm just going to throw this in there and leave it at that lol, good night and praise God.

Well while you wait for more patients then, I am curious, what do you think about Revelation 14?

Doctor, doctor, give me the news.

[video=youtube;NQ7WyP_qCZk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQ7WyP_qCZk[/video]

 

[Mem]

Sorry, I've only read the briefest posts, and those with the larger fonts, four years of textbooks has jaded me of extensive readings and I take liberty being these are not required reading. Beside that, online texts has somewhat dimmed my eyesight significantly. But, I am glad this was placed within the miscellaneous forum, and that I caught it early enough before it went beyond a few pages as I do rather enjoy the more leisurely conversations.

Anyway, since God is One of order and nothing written is insignificant, as may have been pointed out, I've been studying on letters and corresponding numbers and meanings thereof (Hebrew). However, leaving that to your option to research for yourselves I won't go to deeply in that here except to summarize what I think this says.

This number are all those sealed to(ward) the Sheppard (of) God with the Holy Spirit (thus (un)defiled). Look what is said (in Rev 7 of those sealed) when the tribes are translated (hermetically even)...

Judah... Praised
Rueben... Behold, a Son
Gad... fortune

Asher... Happy; blessed
Naphtali... my strugge
Manasseh... causing to forget

Simeon... Obedient; listening
Levi... Joined
Isaachar... There is reward

Zebulun... Prince
Joseph... May he add; give increase
Benjamin... Son of My Right Hand

 

[oldethennew]

1CH. 5:1-2

Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn;
but, forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto
the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned
after the birthright.

For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him came the chief ruler;
but the birthright was Joseph's.


GEN. 49:10.
The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet,
until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

the Sceptre and the Birthright are 'two-different' Rights.

 

[Ezekiel8]

1CH. 5:1-2

Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn;
but, forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto
the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned
after the birthright.

For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him came the chief ruler;
but the birthright was Joseph's.


GEN. 49:10.
The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet,
until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

the Sceptre and the Birthright are 'two-different' Rights.

This is a good point, but I think it transferred to Judah. Funny enough I was just reading this Psalm the other night. Note verses 9, 10, 11, 67, and 68.

Psalm 78

1 Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Which we have heard and known, and our fathers have told us.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]We will not hide them from their children, shewing to the generation to come the praises of the Lord, and his strength, and his wonderful works that he hath done.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For he established a testimony in Jacob, and appointed a law in Israel, which he commanded our fathers, that they should make them known to their children:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]That the generation to come might know them, even the children which should be born; who should arise and declare them to their children:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]That they might set their hope in God, and not forget the works of God, but keep his commandments:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And might not be as their fathers, a stubborn and rebellious generation; a generation that set not their heart aright, and whose spirit was not stedfast with God.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]The children of Ephraim, being armed, and carrying bows, turned back in the day of battle.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]They kept not the covenant of God, and refused to walk in his law;
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And forgat his works, and his wonders that he had shewed them.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Marvellous things did he in the sight of their fathers, in the land of Egypt, in the field of Zoan.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]He divided the sea, and caused them to pass through; and he made the waters to stand as an heap.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]In the daytime also he led them with a cloud, and all the night with a light of fire.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]He clave the rocks in the wilderness, and gave them drink as out of the great depths.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]He brought streams also out of the rock, and caused waters to run down like rivers.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And they sinned yet more against him by provoking the most High in the wilderness.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And they tempted God in their heart by asking meat for their lust.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Yea, they spake against God; they said, Can God furnish a table in the wilderness?
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Behold, he smote the rock, that the waters gushed out, and the streams overflowed; can he give bread also? can he provide flesh for his people?
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Therefore the Lord heard this, and was wroth: so a fire was kindled against Jacob, and anger also came up against Israel;
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Because they believed not in God, and trusted not in his salvation:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Though he had commanded the clouds from above, and opened the doors of heaven,
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And had rained down manna upon them to eat, and had given them of the corn of heaven.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Man did eat angels' food: he sent them meat to the full.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]He caused an east wind to blow in the heaven: and by his power he brought in the south wind.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]He rained flesh also upon them as dust, and feathered fowls like as the sand of the sea:
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And he let it fall in the midst of their camp, round about their habitations.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]So they did eat, and were well filled: for he gave them their own desire;
[SUP]30 [/SUP]They were not estranged from their lust. But while their meat was yet in their mouths,
[SUP]31 [/SUP]The wrath of God came upon them, and slew the fattest of them, and smote down the chosen men of Israel.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]For all this they sinned still, and believed not for his wondrous works.
[SUP]33 [/SUP]Therefore their days did he consume in vanity, and their years in trouble.
[SUP]34 [/SUP]When he slew them, then they sought him: and they returned and enquired early after God.
[SUP]35 [/SUP]And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Nevertheless they did flatter him with their mouth, and they lied unto him with their tongues.
[SUP]37 [/SUP]For their heart was not right with him, neither were they stedfast in his covenant.
[SUP]38 [/SUP]But he, being full of compassion, forgave their iniquity, and destroyed them not: yea, many a time turned he his anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]For he remembered that they were but flesh; a wind that passeth away, and cometh not again.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]How oft did they provoke him in the wilderness, and grieve him in the desert!
[SUP]41 [/SUP]Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.
[SUP]42 [/SUP]They remembered not his hand, nor the day when he delivered them from the enemy.
[SUP]43 [/SUP]How he had wrought his signs in Egypt, and his wonders in the field of Zoan.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]And had turned their rivers into blood; and their floods, that they could not drink.
[SUP]45 [/SUP]He sent divers sorts of flies among them, which devoured them; and frogs, which destroyed them.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]He gave also their increase unto the caterpiller, and their labour unto the locust.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]He destroyed their vines with hail, and their sycomore trees with frost.
[SUP]48 [/SUP]He gave up their cattle also to the hail, and their flocks to hot thunderbolts.
[SUP]49 [/SUP]He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them.
[SUP]50 [/SUP]He made a way to his anger; he spared not their soul from death, but gave their life over to the pestilence;
[SUP]51 [/SUP]And smote all the firstborn in Egypt; the chief of their strength in the tabernacles of Ham:
[SUP]52 [/SUP]But made his own people to go forth like sheep, and guided them in the wilderness like a flock.
[SUP]53 [/SUP]And he led them on safely, so that they feared not: but the sea overwhelmed their enemies.
[SUP]54 [/SUP]And he brought them to the border of his sanctuary, even to this mountain, which his right hand had purchased.
[SUP]55 [/SUP]He cast out the heathen also before them, and divided them an inheritance by line, and made the tribes of Israel to dwell in their tents.
[SUP]56 [/SUP]Yet they tempted and provoked the most high God, and kept not his testimonies:
[SUP]57 [/SUP]But turned back, and dealt unfaithfully like their fathers: they were turned aside like a deceitful bow.
[SUP]58 [/SUP]For they provoked him to anger with their high places, and moved him to jealousy with their graven images.
[SUP]59 [/SUP]When God heard this, he was wroth, and greatly abhorred Israel:
[SUP]60 [/SUP]So that he forsook the tabernacle of Shiloh, the tent which he placed among men;
[SUP]61 [/SUP]And delivered his strength into captivity, and his glory into the enemy's hand.
[SUP]62 [/SUP]He gave his people over also unto the sword; and was wroth with his inheritance.
[SUP]63 [/SUP]The fire consumed their young men; and their maidens were not given to marriage.
[SUP]64 [/SUP]Their priests fell by the sword; and their widows made no lamentation.
[SUP]65 [/SUP]Then the Lord awaked as one out of sleep, and like a mighty man that shouteth by reason of wine.
[SUP]66 [/SUP]And he smote his enemies in the hinder parts: he put them to a perpetual reproach.
[SUP]67 [/SUP]Moreover he refused the tabernacle of Joseph, and chose not the tribe of Ephraim:
[SUP]68 [/SUP]But chose the tribe of Judah, the mount Zion which he loved.
[SUP]69 [/SUP]And he built his sanctuary like high palaces, like the earth which he hath established for ever.
[SUP]70 [/SUP]He chose David also his servant, and took him from the sheepfolds:
[SUP]71 [/SUP]From following the ewes great with young he brought him to feed Jacob his people, and Israel his inheritance.
[SUP]72 [/SUP]So he fed them according to the integrity of his heart; and guided them by the skilfulness of his hands.

 

[oldethennew]

a powerful Psalm, ty for posting it...

 

[Ezekiel8]

a powerful Psalm, ty for posting it...

I agree, an amazing Psalm, a good summary of the Old Testament up to the point of Book of Psalms, and a lot of interesting stuff in there too that answers a lot of common and more complex questions people have in regards to the Bible. I wonder if this might also be a possible explanation as to Ephraim's absence in Rev 7 also. Heh, very interesting that I was just literally reading it the other night and then saw your post. Almost too perfect to be a coincidence, but I try not to be superstitious. You still made good points though and indeed the verse about Reuben defiling his father's bed (lol look there's defile again!) and so losing the firstborn birthright is indeed the one I was meaning in the previous post from last night.

 

[Miri]

Hi Willie T,

I have wondered if it refers to people who have been persecuted/tortured for their
faith, who did not defile themselves by throwing aside their first love of Jesus.

Maybe Steven as an example or even those who Paul persecuted.
Peter tradionally was crucified upside down etc.

Then there are verses like these.


Revelation 20:4-5 NKJV
[4] And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed
to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their
witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast
or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their
hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
[5] But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years
were finished. This is the first resurrection.




I’ve also seen comments that they are the “first fruits” who evangelised
and brought the multitude to Christ spreading the word.

 

[Enoch987]

I interpret the 144000 virgins as literal. the archetype is the conquest of Midian in Numbers 31. Moses was told to take vengeance for fornication with women leading to idolatry in Numbers 25 and 24000 Israelites die from plague from God. At Midian, God told Moses and not to spare anyone but save the animals. 1000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel are chosen for war. 32000 virgins are saved for marriage which Moses is upset about but he then allows. A total of 840000 animals and female virgins. The plan to defeat Israel through the women of Midian was from Balaam who is executed. The 840000 items are divided 420000 and 420000 between the 12000 who fought and the rest of the 600000 Israelite men. A tax of 1 of every 50 items is placed on the 600000 and 1 of every 500 for the soldiers.

 

[dcontroversal]

I believe if ALL THE FACTS listed about the 144,000 are taken into account and the prophecy about Rachael weeping for her children we find a group of boys in history that fits all the facts to a t.......

 

[Ahwatukee]

I believe if ALL THE FACTS listed about the 144,000 are taken into account and the prophecy about Rachael weeping for her children we find a group of boys in history that fits all the facts to a t.......

Hey Dcon,

The prophecy regarding Rachel weeping for her children is referring to when Herod slaughtered all of the male children in and around Bethlehem in an attempt to kill Jesus, which has been fulfilled. Of course as we all know, an angel warned Joseph in a dream to take Mary and Jesus to Egypt prior to that event to keep him safe.

Regarding the 144,000 which is a future group who come out unbelieving Israel, these have nothing to do with Rachel weeping for her children and should not even be compared. As I stated previously, the scripture says "these are those who did not defile themselves with women," which demonstrates the 144,000 as being adult males as those keeping themselves from sexual immorality. For there would be no need to make that claim regarding children.

 

[Ellsworth1943]

Hey Dcon,

The prophecy regarding Rachel weeping for her children is referring to when Herod slaughtered all of the male children in and around Bethlehem in an attempt to kill Jesus, which has been fulfilled. Of course as we all know, an angel warned Joseph in a dream to take Mary and Jesus to Egypt prior to that event to keep him safe.

Regarding the 144,000 which is a future group who come out unbelieving Israel, these have nothing to do with Rachel weeping for her children and should not even be compared. As I stated previously, the scripture says "these are those who did not defile themselves with women," which demonstrates the 144,000 as being adult males as those keeping themselves from sexual immorality. For there would be no need to make that claim regarding children.

Where is Scripture proof that these 144,000 come out of unbelieving Israel?
If you can not offer Scripture proof, than this is just your opinion.

 

[Ezekiel8]

Hey Dcon,

The prophecy regarding Rachel weeping for her children is referring to when Herod slaughtered all of the male children in and around Bethlehem in an attempt to kill Jesus, which has been fulfilled. Of course as we all know, an angel warned Joseph in a dream to take Mary and Jesus to Egypt prior to that event to keep him safe.

Regarding the 144,000 which is a future group who come out unbelieving Israel, these have nothing to do with Rachel weeping for her children and should not even be compared. As I stated previously, the scripture says "these are those who did not defile themselves with women," which demonstrates the 144,000 as being adult males as those keeping themselves from sexual immorality. For there would be no need to make that claim regarding children.

I think indeed it is not about the children slain by Herod. I would add though, it's not just men that participated in sexual immorality, it's about men that never had sex period. As Mr. Lynx pointed out this is confirmed as it says "for they are virgins". Lol now I can see where some ya'll older married guys might not like that, but I mean come on, ya'll got your reward all ready. A wife is a great thing to have! He who finds a wife finds a good thing! It's a fantastic thing to be married, but not everyone will be married, and the unmarried men deserve their reward too. Doesn't disqualify you from being saved either remember, it just means the 144,000 like they get a good reward because they didn't get one in this world like you guys did.

 

[Willie-T]

I think indeed it is not about the children slain by Herod. I would add though, it's not just men that participated in sexual immorality, it's about men that never had sex period. As Mr. Lynx pointed out this is confirmed as it says "for they are virgins". Lol now I can see where some ya'll older married guys might not like that, but I mean come on, ya'll got your reward all ready. A wife is a great thing to have! He who finds a wife finds a good thing! It's a fantastic thing to be married, but not everyone will be married, and the unmarried men deserve their reward too. Doesn't disqualify you from being saved either remember, it just means the 144,000 like they get a good reward because they didn't get one in this world like you guys did.

You MUST be able to see that this was never talking about the sex act. This is about remaining pure in their relationship (marriage to the Lamb), and not chasing after false religions.