Not By Works

posthuman · Jan 1, 2018

so in the context of this, where Peter is describing false teachers and false prophets, we have this:

For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
(2 Peter 2:21)

and then says it is just like dogs returning to vomit.

so they 'knew the way of righteousness' -- which way is, knowledge of the Savior Jesus Christ, the Lord - which is not about works, but about belief.
and they 'turned away from the holy commandment' -- what command?

the thing they knew was Jesus Christ as Saviour and Lord, and that is salvation, by a belief-based mechanism, not a works-based mechanism, because it is by knowledge of Him. what command is associated with salvation?

Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved

I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them.

what specifically does turning away from this specific commandment mean?
is metaphorical 'vomit' in this context limited to 'defilements of the world' in a physical sense?

stillness · Jan 1, 2018

posthuman said:

so in the context of this, where Peter is describing false teachers and false prophets, we have this:

For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
(2 Peter 2:21)

and then says it is just like dogs returning to vomit.

so they 'knew the way of righteousness' -- which way is, knowledge of the Savior Jesus Christ, the Lord - which is not about works, but about belief.
and they 'turned away from the holy commandment' -- what command?

the thing they knew was Jesus Christ as Saviour and Lord, and that is salvation, by a belief-based mechanism, not a works-based mechanism, because it is by knowledge of Him. what command is associated with salvation?

Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved

I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them.

what specifically does turning away from this specific commandment mean?
is metaphorical 'vomit' in this context limited to 'defilements of the world' in a physical sense?

Believing Jesus to be saved:
"He that sais he believes in Him is to walk even as He walked."
"A new commandment I give to you, that you Love one another; as I have Loved you, that you also love one another."
To reinforce what you just said: the Lord told me a few years ago: It would be better for you not to have been born than to return to your vomit.

stillness · Jan 1, 2018

stillness said:

For those concerned about eternal security, no need to be concerned, "nothing shall separate us from the Love of Christ.
As long as we don't reject the Holy Spirit to become filled with violence, in the example of Judas. For those saying that Judas was not saved, "Have I not chosen you 12 and one of you is a devil (divided spirit). Jesus also addressed peter similarly "Get behind me devil." Just to make sure I covered all the bases (is there a catcher out there). 12 years ago the Lord told me: Enter in as a little child and put away your divided spirit. Could I reject the Holy Spirit, No I asked the Lord years ago to make it impossible for me to go my own way: whom He Loves He disciplines and commands us to repent. "Kept by the power of God.

Seohce · Jan 1, 2018

Luke 6:46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what i say?

1 John 1:5-10 WALKING IN THE LIGHT This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we CLAIM to have fellowship with him YET WALK IN THE DARKNESS, we lie and do not live by the truth. But IF WE WALK in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. IF WE CLAIM to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. IF WE CLAIM we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

WHY WOULD OUR LORD JESUS BUILD HIS CHURCH(matthew 16:18) IF IT’S MEMBERS WOULD JUST SAY AND CLAIM THAT THEY HAVE FAITH BUT WON’T DO WHAT THEY ARE TOLD TO DO FOR FEAR OF BEING CALLED A WORKS SALVATIONIST?

IF THE CHURCH IS THE BODY,(eph 5:23) AND JUST AS THE BODY WITHOUT THE SPIRIT IS DEAD SO FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.( james 2:26) IN THE SAME WAY A TREE WITHOUT FRUIT IS CUT DOWN AND BURNED.(Luke 6:43-45,john 15:6,mat 3:10)

ISN’T HE THE HEAD OF THAT ONE BODY (THE CHURCH)(ephesians 5:23)

SINCE WHEN DID THE BODY CONTROL THE HEAD OR MAKE THE HEAD DO WHAT THE BODY WANTS OR FOR THE LORD TO BECOME ITS SERVANT?

AREN”T THE BELIEVERS WHO ARE PART OF THAT ONE BODY SUPPOSED TO BE LED BY THE SPIRIT AND NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND?

ARE WE SUPPOSED TO JUST HAVE FAITH ALONE EXPECTING TO BE SERVED BY GOD HERE ON EARTH AND IN HEAVEN.( IF ALLOWED TO ENTER THAT PLACE)?

IF EVEN OUR LORD JESUS BECAME A SERVANT, SHOULDN’T WE BE LIKE HIM, TO WALK AS HE DID ( 1 john 2:6) AND BE CONSIDERED AS GOOD AND FAITHFUL SERVANTS? (1 john 2:5-6,matthew 25:14-30)

Ephesians 4:11-13 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, TO PREPARE GOD’S PEOPLE FOR WORKS OF SERVICE, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

IF WE REALLY ARE A PART OF CHRIST BEING A MEMBER OF HIS BODY, THEN WE ARE EXPECTED TO DO HIS WORKS AS WE ARE LED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.

IT IS HIS BODY (THE CHURCH) WHOM HE WILL SAVE AND THEY ARE THOSE WHO THROUGH FAITH DO THE WILL OF THE FATHER AND ARE WORKERS AND SERVANTS OF GOD AND ARE THEREFORE SONS OF GOD.

John 14:12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

Romans 8:14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Mark 7:6-13 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you HYPOCRITES; as it is written: “‘These people HONOR ME WITH THEIR LIPS, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; THEIR TEACHINGS ARE BUT RULES TAUGHT BY MEN.’ You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.” And he said to them: “YOU HAVE A FINE WAY OF SETTING ASIDE THE COMMANDS OF GOD in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban’ (that is, a gift devoted to God), then YOU NO LONGER LET HIM DO ANYTHING for his father or mother. Thus YOU NULLIFY THE WORD OF GOD by your tradition that you have handed down. And YOU DO MANY THINGS LIKE THAT.”

Therefore:

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

stillness · Jan 1, 2018

stillness said:

Pondering this further:
To Laodicea, Revelation 3:20 "Behold I stand at the door and knock" implies this church was not saved.
Convinced that lukewarm and divided are saying the same thing differently. As Jesus saying to Peter:
"I have prayed for you that your faith fail not, and when you are converted strengthen the brethren."
When you are converted, implies that even though we are called, until we are faithful we are not saved.
"Many are called but few are chosen,"
Revelations 17:14 Called chosen and faithful.
This is the salvation of the overcomers, who reign with Christ in the first resurrection.
The rest of the dead are not raised until the 1000 years are fulfilled, and everyone is judged according to their works.

ComeLordJesus · Jan 1, 2018

posthuman said:

You asked what command. In John 13:34 Jesus said:

"A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another."

It's interesting that Jesus also said in Matt.22:37-40 "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Even though there are two commandments in Matt. they both speak of love just as the one in John.

lancaster · Jan 1, 2018

Good works are still required of the Lord. James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Hizikyah · Jan 1, 2018

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Acts 3:19, "Repent therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out; that times of refreshing may come from the presence of YHWH."

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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 11:6, “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to Yah has to believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who earnestly seek Him.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 5:9, “And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting salvation to all those obeying Him.”[/FONT]
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TruthTalk · Jan 1, 2018

lancaster said:

Your wonderful works cannot save you nor keep you saved, but God can.
Simple Sunday school lesson.

James is not talking about salvation but rather comparing one man's faith against another. One verse from the bible does not make it a doctrine of the Church. You are boasting in your works which is nothing more than "Cainology", unacceptable worship.

Ephesians2:8-10
8) "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves,
it is the gift of God,
9) not by works, so that no one can boast.
10) For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

TruthTalk said:

Hizikyah · Jan 1, 2018

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 3:28, "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law* through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law*!"[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]*“Law” is word # G3551 – nomos, Strong's Concordance, nomos: that which is assigned, hence usage, law, Original Word: νόμος, ου, ὁ, Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine, Transliteration: nomos, Phonetic Spelling: (nom'-os), Short Definition: a law, the Mosaic Law, Definition: usage, custom, law; in NT: of, law in general, plur: of divine laws; of a force or influence impelling to action; of the Mosaic law;, metion: of the books which contain the law, the Pentateuch, the Old Testament scriptures in general[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 6:16, "Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves servants for obedience, you are servants of the one whom you obey, whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness?"

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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:14-26, “14 My brothers, what use is it for anyone to say he has belief but does not have works? This belief is unable to save him. 15, "And if a brother or sister is naked and in need of daily food, 16, "but one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” but you do not give them the bodily needs, what use is it? 17, "So also belief, if it does not have works, is in itself dead. 18, "But someone might say, “You have belief, and I have works.” Show me your belief without your works, and I shall show you my belief by my works. 19, "You believe that Yah is one. You do well. The demons also believe – and shudder! 20, "But do you wish to know, O empty man, that the belief without the works is dead? 21, "Was not Aḇraham our father declared right by works when he offered Yitsḥaq his son on the slaughter-place? 22, "Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected? 23, "And the Scripture was filled which says, “Aḇraham believed Yah, and it was reckoned to him for righteousness.” And He called him, “he who loves Yah. 24, "You see, then, that a man is declared right by works, and not by belief alone. 25, "In the same way, was not Raḥaḇ the whore also declared right by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26, “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so also the belief is dead without the works.”[/FONT]

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mailmandan · Jan 1, 2018

lancaster said:

Required for what? We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works (Ephesians 2:8,9).

James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

Hizikyah · Jan 1, 2018

Isaiah 60:16, "“And you shall suck the milk of the nations, and shall suckle the breast of sovereigns. And you shall know that I, יהוה, your Savior and your Redeemer, am the Mighty One of Ya‛aqoḇ."

Isaiah 45:21-22, “Declare and bring near, let them even take counsel together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has declared it from that time? Is it not I, יהוה? And there is no mighty one besides Me, a righteous Power and Savior, there is none besides Me. Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I am Strength, and there is none else.”

Malachi 3:14-18, “You have said, ‘It is worthless to serve Yah. And what did we gain when we guarded His Charge, and when we walked as mourners before יהוה of hosts? And now we are calling the proud blessed – not only are the doers of wrongness built up, but they also try Yah and escape. Then shall those who fear יהוה speak to one another, and יהוה listens and hears, and a book of remembrance be written before Him, of those who fear יהוה, and those who think upon His Name. And they shall be Mine,” said יהוה of hosts, “on the day that I prepare a treasured possession. And I shall spare them as a man spares his own son who serves him. Then you shall again see the difference between the righteous and the wrong, between one who serves Yah and one who does not serve Him."

Luke 8:21, “And He answering, said to them, “My mother and My brothers are those who are hearing the Word of Yah and doing it.”

Matthew 12:50, “For whoever does the desire of My Father who is in the heavens is My brother and sister and mother.”

John 12:25-26, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone. But if it dies, it bears much fruit. He who loves his life shall lose it, and he who hates his life in this world shall preserve it for everlasting life." Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.”

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My teachings will not pass away.”[/FONT]

stonesoffire · Jan 1, 2018

Returning to vomit. Gross to think about, but it's taking in something good and nutritious, and turning it to waste, then eating it.

Truth twisted to false.

dcontroversal · Jan 1, 2018

Hizikyah said:

What you cannot grasp because you are so immersed into this law keeping working for salvation is the simple truth that faith has been dealt to man IN MEASURE.....some will be spiritually mature giants that serve and produce gold, silver and precious stones and thn you have those for what ever reason are spiritually weak, stunted in growth and their works will be of wood, hay and stubble.....both are eternally saved, one is rewarded greatly for service, one has a loss of reward for a lack of works. In between both will be saved believers with all levels of service of reward and or lack thereof..........faith ALONE SAVES A MAN AND JUSTIFIES BEFORE GOD.....JAMES does not teach that works justify a man before God!

Hizikyah · Jan 1, 2018

stonesoffire said:

2 Peter 2:20-22, “For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Master and Savior יהושע Messiah, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the set-apart Command delivered unto them. For them the proverb has proved true, “A dog returns to his own vomit,” (Pro 26:11) and, “A washed sow returns to her rolling in the mud.”

John 14:23-24, “יהושע [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”[/FONT]

Hizikyah · Jan 1, 2018

dcontroversal said:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:24, "You see, then, that a man is declared right by works, and not by belief alone."

James 2:26, "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so the faith without works is dead also."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:14, “My brothers, what use is it for anyone to say he has belief but does not have works? This belief is unable to save him.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 1:22-25, " But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror; for once he has looked at himself and gone away, he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was. But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does."

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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 7:21-27, “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Master, Master,’ shall enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but he who is doing the desire of My Father in the heavens. Many shall say to Me in that day, ‘Master, Master, have we not prophesied in Your Name, and cast out demons in Your Name, and done many mighty works in Your Name?’ And then I shall declare to them, ‘I never knew you, depart from Me, you who work lawlessness!’” Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does them, shall be like a wise man who built his house on the rock, and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. And everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does not do them, shall be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand, and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat on that house, and it fell, and great was its fall.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Luke 11:28, But He said, “Blessed rather are those hearing the Word of Yah and watching over it!”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."[/FONT]

dcontroversal · Jan 1, 2018

Endoscopy said:

Incorrect. The law remains intact and applies to all. Jesus said it remains until the heavens and earth disappear.

Matthew 5:13 to 20 NIV

Salt and Light
13 “You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

The Fulfillment of the Law
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

The law is for the lawless.....those in Christ by faith have been justified from the law and are no longer condemned by it nor under it.......GRACE SUPERCEEDS LAW

dcontroversal · Jan 1, 2018

TruthTalk said:

Your wonderful works cannot save you nor keep you saved, but God can.
Simple Sunday school lesson.

James is not talking about salvation but rather comparing one man's faith against another. One verse from the bible does not make it a doctrine of the Church. You are boasting in your works which is nothing more than "Cainology", unacceptable worship.

Ephesians2:8-10
8) "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves,
it is the gift of God,
9) not by works, so that no one can boast.
10) For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

Love the use of "Cainology" <----worker for and 1st false teacher. .

BillG · Jan 1, 2018

lancaster said:

Good works are not required for salvation. Good works are as result of salvation.

Salvation is by faith.
I have had many a conversation with unbelievers who reject Jesus yet say "if there is a God (and most believe the is a God)
Their hope is my good works outweigh the bad ones. Yet they do not realise the good works are actually bad works. Send gain and reciprocate.

We are saved by faith to do good works not the other way around.

Hizikyah · Jan 1, 2018

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Timothy 1:5-8, " But the goal* of the commandment is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions. And we know that the Law is good if one uses it legitimately.”

(goal)is word #G5056 –télos; Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)

HELPS Word-studies – 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.[/FONT]

Not By Works

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