Partakers of the Holy Ghost

[eternally-gratefull]

Yep, Saul had the Holy Spirit then lost it.

Saul is in paul or Saul as in king Saul?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And Peter also tied obedience to God in with the receiving of the Holy Spirit as well.

Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.33 When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them.

The teaching that obedience is tied to the Holy spirit has been a problem with mainstream preachers for a long time.

Lol.. this passage does not say the HS was given BECAUSE they obey him, it says he is given TO THOSE who obey him.

Huge difference.

Gods people obey him, those who are not Gods do not obey him, So of course, the HS is given to those who obey him, they obey him BECAUSE they had truth faith, and were TRULY saved.

 

[hardsell]

Saul is in paul or Saul as in king Saul?

King Saul.

 

[hardsell]

If you are referring to king Saul, yes. Before the Holy Spirit was sent down at Pentecost, this was true, since He came upon some and then departed. But the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ changed everything. Once Christ ascended to the right hand of the Father, the Father and Son *poured out* the Holy Spirit "upon all flesh" as prophesied by Joel. That is why Peter said this after preaching the Gospel on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:38): Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Ever since, the GIFT of the Holy Spirit (which is also the gift of eternal life) is given by God to every sinner who repents and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ. Even Peter and the Jews who accompanied him were surprised that the Holy Spirit was given to all the Gentiles in the household of Cornelius. But that is exactly what the New Covenant was all about -- the gift of the Holy Spirit and the New Birth by the Spirit. Not only does the Spirit regenerate the sinner who believes, but He also comes to indwell the believer, and give him a new heart and a new spirit.

But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:4-7).

"Which he shed on us abundantly" is another way of saying that the Holy Spirit was "poured out" upon the believer and that he was baptized WITH the Holy Ghost by Christ (as prophesied by John the Baptist). So believers cannot "lose" the Holy Spirit.

King Saul did not have the Holy Spirit within, just upon him and yes, God removed it. We see examples in the NT of the Holy Spirit ministering in 2 ways to the New Covenant believer.

Within as you described here and then upon. Within is for the character[fruit] of the person themselves and upon is for ministry[gifts] for others.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

King Saul.

No one had the permanent indwelling of the HS in the OT./ The penalty of sin was not paid yet. So that would not be a good example.

 

[PennEd]

Hebrews 6:4-6 is very simple to understand if you just look at the Greek tenses used:

Hebrews 6:4-6King James Version (KJV)[SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


In verse 6 both the verbs "crucify" and "put him to an open shame" are present participles - which means action at the same time as the main verb. The main verb is "to renew". It is impossible to renew someone to repentance while at the same time they are "crucifying" Christ again and "putting him to an open shame".

Is it possible to renew someone to repentance if they stop crucifying Christ again and stop putting him to an open shame? The text does not actually answer that question.

But, the text does not make a blanket statement that no one who has fallen away can be renewed to repentance.

Note: If you are a KJV only person, and take the KJV English translation as the final authority, then of course you won't agree with what I am trying to say here.

Hi Chester.

I agree with this understanding. I came across it about a year ago, and I DO think the Greek supports it. Having said that, I do NOT believe these people were saved at one time. Only that the verse does not mean they are utterly lost without hope.

I maintain "tasting" is different than ingesting and being sealed.

Happy New Year to you and yours!

 

[hardsell]

No one had the permanent indwelling of the HS in the OT./ The penalty of sin was not paid yet. So that would not be a good example.

Did I say that? why don't you take your own advice and go back and read what I said please.

King Saul was given the Holy Spirit upon and not within, when he disobeyed the Spirit was removed and he lost his anointing.
1 Samuel 10 confirms that King Saul was given the Spirit of the Lord upon and not within.

 

[Studyman]

Or we can take it at face value

The author of Hebrews was fighting Judaism,. He was trying to stop people from walking away from grace and returning to law. So he is making a statement of fact, Returning to law (falling away) puts God to open shame, why? Because the law says you can fall away, and need to be renewed./ It says Christ sacrifice was not enough. And if there was a sin which could cause a person to fall away, it means Jesus did not pay for that sin to begin with, so he would have to return to be crucified again,or everyone who commits that sin will be lost forever (talk about putting him to open shame) And we can also look at tyhe verses which immediately follow. Which talks about rain falling to the earth, and this rain produced fruit which brings blessing, But if it does not produce fruit, it is rejected (as works) and NEAR TO BEING CURSED (ie, it is still saved, it is like the Corinthian example of gold silver precious stone, wood hay straw, if our works endure because of the rain, we recieve reward. if it does not, it is BURNT, yet he himself will be saved.

People want to focus on a few verses, and totally ibgnore context. And all the verses around it would would not support their view.

PS. I am not KJ only, And near to being cursed is in all versions except NLT, a version I would never recommend anyway

It is important to keep in remembrance that the Jews/Pharisees were never following or teaching God's Laws. Judaism, as it is called, was a collection of man made doctrines and traditions that the Jews had been preaching for centuries. (Also called "Talmud") These man made traditions, which included their version of the Levitical Priesthood "Works of the Law" for remission of sins, had plagued Israel for years. God sent them prophets to try and correct them, but these prophets were silenced instead of believed. Then He sent His own Son, and they condemned Him to death as well.

This is a very important Biblical fact that must be understood before the teachings of the New Testament can be understood. It is not God's Instructions or Righteousness that cause a person to "fall away", it is rejecting God's instruction and righteousness, and following man made doctrines and traditions instead, that have plagued mankind since Eve listened to the deceiver instead of God.

This seemingly small doctrinal issue has caused an almost opposite Gospel to be taught by "Many" who come in Jesus name today.

Instead of the tradition and doctrines of men being considered evil and against Christ, as Jesus taught, They preach it is the Laws of God that cause men to turn away, as EG mentions above.

Returning to law (falling away) puts God to open shame

A man needs to understand the truth that the Pharisees were preaching lies about God, that their father was satan, not God, that they had created their own images of God in the likeness of man, their own Sabbaths, their own High days and had "REJECTED" God's Word, not followed it.

A man needs to understand the Biblical Truth that the Mainstream Church of Christ's time were rejected, not because they preached the Word of God, or taught obedience to the Word of God, but because they rejected it and created their own Law.

"4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers."

For those who accept this truth, there is understanding. For those who refuse to accept this truth, there is deception and delusion.

 

[Studyman]

Lol.. this passage does not say the HS was given BECAUSE they obey him, it says he is given TO THOSE who obey him.

Huge difference.

Gods people obey him, those who are not Gods do not obey him, So of course, the HS is given to those who obey him, they obey him BECAUSE they had truth faith, and were TRULY saved.

The end result is the same, a man that is obedient to God, not man made doctrines and traditions.

 

[oldethennew]

ISA. 63:11.
Then He remembered the days of old, Moses, and His people, saying, Where is He
that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of His flock? where is He
that put His Holy Spirit within him?

one cannot inherit The Kingdom of God without The Holy Spirit, it is our guarantee...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hi Chester.

I agree with this understanding. I came across it about a year ago, and I DO think the Greek supports it. Having said that, I do NOT believe these people were saved at one time. Only that the verse does not mean they are utterly lost without hope.

I maintain "tasting" is different than ingesting and being sealed.

Happy New Year to you and yours!

I think Jesus said the same in john 6, he did not say to taste the bread from heaven, or his flesh, but to chew and gnaw on it.

I do not think they are lost without hope either. Although I think if we leave one religion. Then try Christianity, then go back it is much much harder to return again. You always return to what you really trust, in these peoples case it was the law

 

[hardsell]

It is important to keep in remembrance that the Jews/Pharisees were never following or teaching God's Laws. Judaism, as it is called, was a collection of man made doctrines and traditions that the Jews had been preaching for centuries. (Also called "Talmud") These man made traditions, which included their version of the Levitical Priesthood "Works of the Law" for remission of sins, had plagued Israel for years. God sent them prophets to try and correct them, but these prophets were silenced instead of believed. Then He sent His own Son, and they condemned Him to death as well.

This is a very important Biblical fact that must be understood before the teachings of the New Testament can be understood. It is not God's Instructions or Righteousness that cause a person to "fall away", it is rejecting God's instruction and righteousness, and following man made doctrines and traditions instead, that have plagued mankind since Eve listened to the deceiver instead of God.

This seemingly small doctrinal issue has caused an almost opposite Gospel to be taught by "Many" who come in Jesus name today.

Instead of the tradition and doctrines of men being considered evil and against Christ, as Jesus taught, They preach it is the Laws of God that cause men to turn away, as EG mentions above.




A man needs to understand the truth that the Pharisees were preaching lies about God, that their father was satan, not God, that they had created their own images of God in the likeness of man, their own Sabbaths, their own High days and had "REJECTED" God's Word, not followed it.

A man needs to understand the Biblical Truth that the Mainstream Church of Christ's time were rejected, not because they preached the Word of God, or taught obedience to the Word of God, but because they rejected it and created their own Law.

"4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers."

For those who accept this truth, there is understanding. For those who refuse to accept this truth, there is deception and delusion.

I am starting to see your points now studyman. I can come along side this a bit better now that I see where you are coming from. It has not stopped today either. i see many on this chat board, putting more faith in "what the church Fathers said" and about this preacher or that preacher rather than what the word made flesh said.

Thanks for the comments.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Did I say that? why don't you take your own advice and go back and read what I said please.

King Saul was given the Holy Spirit upon and not within, when he disobeyed the Spirit was removed and he lost his anointing.
1 Samuel 10 confirms that King Saul was given the Spirit of the Lord upon and not within.

I will be honest I do into know what your trying to say, All I can say is if your equating Saul losing the HS to a NT believer losing salvation, I disagree

do you think Saul is in paradise or hades?

 

[Studyman]

No one had the permanent indwelling of the HS in the OT./ The penalty of sin was not paid yet. So that would not be a good example.

1 Peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It is important to keep in remembrance that the Jews/Pharisees were never following or teaching God's Laws. Judaism, as it is called, was a collection of man made doctrines and traditions that the Jews had been preaching for centuries. (Also called "Talmud") These man made traditions, which included their version of the Levitical Priesthood "Works of the Law" for remission of sins, had plagued Israel for years. God sent them prophets to try and correct them, but these prophets were silenced instead of believed. Then He sent His own Son, and they condemned Him to death as well.

This is a very important Biblical fact that must be understood before the teachings of the New Testament can be understood. It is not God's Instructions or Righteousness that cause a person to "fall away", it is rejecting God's instruction and righteousness, and following man made doctrines and traditions instead, that have plagued mankind since Eve listened to the deceiver instead of God.

This seemingly small doctrinal issue has caused an almost opposite Gospel to be taught by "Many" who come in Jesus name today.

Instead of the tradition and doctrines of men being considered evil and against Christ, as Jesus taught, They preach it is the Laws of God that cause men to turn away, as EG mentions above.




A man needs to understand the truth that the Pharisees were preaching lies about God, that their father was satan, not God, that they had created their own images of God in the likeness of man, their own Sabbaths, their own High days and had "REJECTED" God's Word, not followed it.

A man needs to understand the Biblical Truth that the Mainstream Church of Christ's time were rejected, not because they preached the Word of God, or taught obedience to the Word of God, but because they rejected it and created their own Law.

"4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers."

For those who accept this truth, there is understanding. For those who refuse to accept this truth, there is deception and delusion.

I can just go by what jesus said, and he said unless our righteousness exceeds there’s, we have no hope. I can also go by what history shows, and that was that the pharisees where according to the law (mosaic) the most morally righteous people in their day (again, according to the law. Not according To God. The law is just a basic standard, it is not the final standard)

But we have been there done that, so I will no longer be responding to your theories anymore. In this thread.

 

[Studyman]

I am starting to see your points now studyman. I can come along side this a bit better now that I see where you are coming from. It has not stopped today either. i see many on this chat board, putting more faith in "what the church Fathers said" and about this preacher or that preacher rather than what the word made flesh said.

Thanks for the comments.

Thank you for the kind words. Yes, this truth is a hard pill for many to swallow. It was for me 25 years ago. But my understanding of the Word opened right up when I accepted it.

thanks again for the kind words.

 

[Studyman]

I can just go by what jesus said, and he said unless our righteousness exceeds there’s, we have no hope. I can also go by what history shows, and that was that the pharisees where according to the law (mosaic) the most morally righteous people in their day (again, according to the law. Not according To God. The law is just a basic standard, it is not the final standard)

But we have been there done that, so I will no longer be responding to your theories anymore. In this thread.

Yes, our righteousness must exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees.

Matt. 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

And what was their righteousness?

They Created their own Sabbath.

They Created their own High Days and "Feasts unto the Lord".

They Created their own images of God after the likeness of men.

They Created their own Law and definition of sin.

They transgressed the Commandments of God by their man made traditions.

They Rejected much of God's Word.

These are not my theories, they are Biblical Facts. I hope you don't belong to a religious franchise that does these things given what Jesus said about them.

I'm sorry you feel the way you do EG, I hope maybe someday you will consider.

You have a good night

 

[hardsell]

Yes, our righteousness must exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees.

Matt. 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

And what was their righteousness?

They Created their own Sabbath.

They Created their own High Days and "Feasts unto the Lord".

They Created their own images of God after the likeness of men.

They Created their own Law and definition of sin.

They transgressed the Commandments of God by their man made traditions.

They Rejected much of God's Word.

These are not my theories, they are Biblical Facts. I hope you don't belong to a religious franchise that does these things given what Jesus said about them.

I'm sorry you feel the way you do EG, I hope maybe someday you will consider.

You have a good night

Yes, this is true. Jesus was saying his righteousness would overcome all self-righteousness.

What else would this mean?

 

[Speak2Me]

It says “if they fall away”

if can be translated 3 ways

If, but they will not (If you could fly, you would not have to drive in this traffic, it is impossible to fly, yet the sentence still is an applicable sentence)

The same type could be used here, If they fall away (the statement being ask, if they fall away, they can not be renewed)

there is two ways to interpret it.

1. If they fall away, they are lost forever, and can not be renewed!

2. If they fall away (if it were possible) they could not be renewed.

the Resolving answer is it puts christs to open shame.

What puts him to shame? A person actually having the ability to fall away or saying a person can fall away, I would say both. If a person can fall away, He is seen as a liar His eternal gift is not eternal. His perfecting forever those being sanctified failed (he could not perfect them forever) his ability to make sure they never fall away is destroyed, because they can actually fall.

as for believing to the saving of the soul. That is not an ongoing thing, it is having true faith, which saves.

And yes, saying we have to continue to believe to maintain salvation is earning salvation, Because it is trusting in your power Not Gods (it is the work of God we believe)

New International Version
and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

New Living Translation
and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame.

English Standard Version
and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

Berean Literal Bible
and then having fallen away--to restore them again to repentance, crucifying in themselves the Son of God and subjecting Him to open shame.

New American Standard Bible
and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

I don't recommend to anyone to use the KJV to prove a point, because its old english makes the scriptures look as if they're saying something else. That's why it's the translation of choice for those who love to take wicked pleasure in eisegesis.

Yes, and as you see. many churches are failing because the people are walking away.


What it does not say is that people will lose salvation, It says a fact,. In the last days,. The churches will get smaller.

Can you explain to me why people would lose faith in a God who never lets them down? If you had faith to begin with, were saved, Past from death to life, Given the Holy Spirit. See him work mightily in your life. And a God who never lets you down, Time and time again, you see that when you do his will. Things work out, but when you do not do his will. Things go bad. Can you explain how a person can lose faith?

Christians lose faith all the time.
Falling away is apostasy, & apostasy means rebellion. A sinner can't rebel from being a sinner, can he?
It's the christians who rebel, because technically they are the only ones who can.
Pretenders aren't christians in the first place, so they can't fall away.
Also, you need to be reminded that teaching epistles are written to christians. Sinners can't do anything with them because scripture is spiritually discerned.

What is it with people who can not answer questions.

1. That does not says they lost salvation. It said they knew the way to salvation, but they were never changed, They were a dog before they gained the knowledge, They were a dog after they gained the knowledge,. And they were a dog in the end (aftert they died)
2. A dog will eat his vomit. You can teach a dog a new trick, but he will always attempt to eat his vomit (I have known dogs to eat their own bow movement that is who they are)

Everybody knows this means backsliding.

The bottom line is you will say anything to counter the truth above. And that's saad.

 

[Speak2Me]

Lol.. this passage does not say the HS was given BECAUSE they obey him, it says he is given TO THOSE who obey him.

Huge difference.

Gods people obey him, those who are not Gods do not obey him, So of course, the HS is given to those who obey him, they obey him BECAUSE they had truth faith, and were TRULY saved.

So, you, a free gracer, an OSAS, has just said sinful man CAN obey God BEFORE receiving the Holy Spirit at salvation?

You just countered your own doctrine by saying works were required to obey the gospel message by repenting of sin (a work), and committing their lives to Christ (also a work).

This is what this scripture really means.