Not By Works

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lightbearer

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
2,375
504
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58
HBG. Pa. USA
Bingo. Faith without works is dead. Unprofitable. Useless. And will be burned up. BUT the believer will still be saved as if through fire.

AND, if James was really talking about unbelievers and the "really not saved." Why wouldn't he instantly pull out John 3:16 and Acts 16:31 for them?! Why try to explain works to an unbeliever? They cannot possibly do them if they are not saved first and filled with the Spirit.

Faith without Christ and His Grace is no salvation.

Faith without works is dead. Unprofitable and rewardless. And believers will be saved as if through fire in The Lords evaluation of them(Bema seat.)
Here follow along.

Let's take a look at that commonly misused chapter. We will start in verse nine.


9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry,ye are God's building.

We are God's. His building. His vineyard. This verse speaksof each and every believer individually and God's ownership of them and Hislaboring with the labors (Apostles, prophets; evangelists, pastors andteachers) to ensure the vineyard (new converts, the laity, those who are butbabes) continues to be fruitful. As His building God uses His labors; theApostles, prophets; evangelists, pastors and teachers to ensure the newconverts, the laity, those who are but babes are built correctly and remainstable.

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, asa wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon.But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

We are GOD’s building. Our foundation is laid, Jesus Christ.This is confirmed in verse 11 "For other foundation can no man lay thanthat is laid, which is Jesus Christ."

What makes up the rest of the believer, the new convert, thelaity, those who are but babes is based upon the doctrine that a labourer or a"masterbuilder" like Paul or another used on them and or theiracceptance of the building material (the doctrine) used in constructing them.So if we have a ministry, (are a laborer; a master builder by the Grace of Godlike Paul) whose duty is the perfecting of the saints, for the work of theministry, we need take heed how we buildeth thereupon those to whom we areministering to.

In other words we need to be sure what we are teaching orshowing is the truth and of God. If we take part in the building of a house,and use shady material, it will not hold up. Will it? Same applies to the workof the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ. False doctrine or abad witness will only destroy those who fed on it or allow themselves to bebuilt with it.

Let's classify the doctrinal building material to whichGOD’s building (HIS People) are constructed of.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation; gold, silver,precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

The Foundation is Jesus Christ. That does not change. We asconverts are the building. Which means we are the material that was used toconstruct us. What type of building material we are will depend on ouracceptance of the New Covenant, the writing, or the putting of His will, HisCommandments, His Love on our hearts and minds. The building material that aprofessing Christian is depends on their acceptance of the Gospel. They will beas either gold, silver, and precious stones or wood, hay, and stubble

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the dayshall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall tryevery man's work of what sort it is.

Upon the Judgment Day every man’s; the laborers, or masterbuilders like Paul’s work, the buildings which are the converts, those undertheir ministry shall be manifested.
A professing Christian is what they believe and do. If theyare Gold, silver or precious stones they will be refined or cleansed by thefire. If they are wood, hay, or stubble they will be burned up, because that iswhat happens to it when fire is introduced to it. There will be weeping andgnashing of teeth.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, heshall receive are ward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall sufferloss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Some might take the latter part of verse fifth-teen to saythat even though the minister was a heretic in spreading false doctrine andbecause of their ministry people were lead astray and were burned up on theJudgement Day that they themselves are saved. That is not what the verse issaying at all. Otherwise the admonition in verse ten to take heed would be fornaught. Usually what ends up happening when building is various tradesmen cometo do the various aspects of building, Brick layers, Carpenters, Roofers...etc.etc. So is it with the making of a Christian. "And he gave some apostles;and some prophets; and some evangelists, some pastors and teachers. So just asit takes many tradesman, not all tradesmen are very apt at his trade and mayuse faulty material or poor craftsmanship. So is it with ministers with falsedoctrine or the leading by poor example as to how a Christian is to be and act.Through God if we are and have used the Gold, the Silver, and or the PreciousStones, at some point in the edification of any convert or ourselves; we didour part with God. But it is up to the building, the convert to maintain thebuilding. It is up to them whether or not they keep the Gold, the Silver, andor the Precious Stones within themselves. If they have not, and they have letanother builder remodel or they themselves remodeled and they use wood, hay andstubble. They will not hold up on the Last Day and they will be destroyed byGod's cleansing fire. But because we had the privilege to know them andlovingly share the precious gems that our Lord has placed in our capable handsfor the edifying, the building of those would be of the household of God, thebody of Christ. We will suffer loss because we love them for God is Love and asHe is so are we. We love them so much because they are a part of us, but theyare destroyed. So we will be sad as we will and are for all those who refusethe Gospel. But we will be saved. Because we did our part through God andshared His precious treasures found in His Word.


16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that theSpirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, himshall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.


We need to take heed as verse ten admonishes. Because if weourselves use inadequate material or lead by a poor example and cause a childof God to be defiled by it, or we ourselves are defiled by the use of theinadequate material; the spreading of heresy; sin. We will be destroyed. Thisis what verse sixteen and seventeen unfold.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
Are you deliberately changing Stonesoffire's name to something else? It seems rude and disrespectful.
In some forums it's against the rules. Not sure about here.

Actually we are flames of fire in the spiritual realms. Motive blown.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
yes, am being evasive. It's easy to know who you are to the moderators.
That's right. IP addresses should be visible to them. But even then that does not tell who at an IP address, or email address is the person posting. Give it up, stonesofthefierystuff, I'm not Fran.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
This is the key verse to understanding James

[SUP]12 [/SUP]So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.
James 2:12


James is writing to the Jews, who are learning how to come out from under the Law and what role works have to play in their final judgment.

The question of faith has already been settled, we are saved by faith, James knew this he was a born again believer.

James is teaching on the profitable life of the Christian and being judged by the law of liberty when we stand before God

[SUP]12 [/SUP]So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.
James 2:12

Those under the law of liberty are already justified by faith in Christ.

Faith alone does not profit because we are already justified by faith, for the believer’s judgement before God it is works that will be Rewarded, that is why he is stressing works


As well, he plainly states that dead faith, is faith that is alone….works are not to save but to bear witness of who we are in Christ and for eternal rewards.

Dead here means ineffective to show who were are in Christ ....NOT for salvation.



Technically we were all alive before we became accountable for our sin and started sinning. Then we died. Paul says that. But James is using dead in the sense of ineffective. In context, unable to save. Ineffective toward saving a person.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
9,386
5,725
113
By responding to life's situations according to the fruit of the Spirit.
And you do mean God's righteousness in me, right?


Yes. You'll see me stumble too, but you will see responses that are unnatural in human beings. And if you knew me ten years ago you'd see how much more today than then. God is being faithful to work this good thing in me.


My own response is failure

It's HIS righteousness. There is no way I could claim it was my own. Yet I AM the righteousness of God.
Because his forgiveness is righteous. I put it on. I KNOW that my redeemer lives. (Job)

2 Cor 5
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.


 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
16,530
491
83
Originally Posted by blue_ladybug

Jesus lost his cool.. He called people names. He brandished a whip and may even have tried to use it on the money changer's in the temple.. Which begs the question, since Jesus WAS fully human and lost His temper on many occasions, was HE God's enemy? No, He wasn't..

EVERY ONE loses their temper from time to time. You do, I do, so does Dcon and everyone else here. If we become God's enemy just because we lose our temper and swear, then we are all doomed.. Good thing we're saved and have His forgiveness. :)

Simple words coming from a simple mind.. lol

being taught truth over the error of this world we are in and not a part of anymore thanks to Father by Risen Son for us to be new in by Belief to his done work for us to rest in.
As told in Col. 1:22 to see this truth by his death we are reconciled as told also in 2 Cor 5:16-20

 
R

Ralph-

Guest
It is problematic that you so steadfastly contradict yourself, talking about non-believers as if they were saved, but then affirming that believers are in fact saved by sheer virtue of the fact of their belonging to Him.
Non believers are not saved. I have never said otherwise.

People who belong to Christ show it by their lives. Not perfect lives but by their progress in holy living and the fact they are not 'living in' sin like an unbeleiver does.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
My own response is failure

It's HIS righteousness. There is no way I could claim it was my own. Yet I AM the righteousness of God.
Because his forgiveness is righteous. I put it on. I KNOW that my redeemer lives. (Job)

2 Cor 5
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.


And we know who has this righteousness by how they live.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
16,530
491
83
Originally Posted by blue_ladybug

Jesus lost his cool.. He called people names. He brandished a whip and may even have tried to use it on the money changer's in the temple.. Which begs the question, since Jesus WAS fully human and lost His temper on many occasions, was HE God's enemy? No, He wasn't..

EVERY ONE loses their temper from time to time. You do, I do, so does Dcon and everyone else here. If we become God's enemy just because we lose our temper and swear, then we are all doomed.. Good thing we're saved and have His forgiveness. :)

Simple words coming from a simple mind.. lol

being taught truth over the error of this world we are in and not a part of anymore thanks to Father by Risen Son for us to be new in by Belief to his done work for us to rest in.
As told in Col. 1:22 to see this truth by his death we are reconciled as told also in 2 Cor 5:16-20

Now see we are saved by the Risen Life of Christ, not by the death only reconciled by the death, for new life to be given free of charge from Father alone to us to be new in his love and mercy for us all. Thank You Romans 5:10 states this truth, read it all in context also thank you
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
Are you deliberately changing Stonesoffire's name to something else? It seems rude and disrespectful.
You mean like when dcontroversial called you purpley something or other?

I have a sense of humor. So does he it looks like.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
In some forums it's against the rules. Not sure about here.

Actually we are flames of fire in the spiritual realms. Motive blown.
Going out on a limb here, but I thinks you are under a lot of conviction about not having the walk to match the talk. If that's the case, you can change that and find peace and have no fear of the judgement that's coming to separate those who really do belong to Christ from those who don't. Breathe on our arm. If it feels warm there's still hope. It's after we die that we lose all chances to repent and make certain we belong to Christ through faith. I know this is not PC for a lot of people in and out of the church but it's the truth that can save a person.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,171
29,475
113
Non believers are not saved. I have never said otherwise.
I did not say you said non-believers were saved. Please read more carefully! I said you talk about non-believers as if they were saved. People who walk away from a life of religion and religious works show they were never saved to begin with.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
I did not say you said non-believers were saved. Please read more carefully! I said you talk about non-believers as if they were saved. People who walk away from a life of religion and religious works show they were never saved to begin with.
Why does this matter if they were ever really saved to begin with or not. Except that people like to use it as the reason they can live in their old unchanged unfruitful lives and insist they're going to be saved from the fire when Jesus comes back.

It doesn't matter if you never believed to begin with, or you walked away from believing. Those who do not have works to show on the day Christ comes back show they do not have faith in Christ and are unbelievers at that moment and will be lost not saved.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
9,386
5,725
113
And we know who has this righteousness by how they live.
ONLY Yeshua has righteousness. Put it on as a breastplate. You can't claim a righteousness of your own.
If you do you, you are condemned.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,171
29,475
113
In some forums it's against the rules. Not sure about here.

Actually we are flames of fire in the spiritual realms. Motive blown.
When I was talking to atheists and agnostics and secular humanists for years, they would call me all kinds of names. One used to call me Magneto, and I had no idea it was a movie character name from X Men. My daughter told me who it was, and I thought, wow, they are telling me I am powerful while trying to insult me. LOLOLOL
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Really? :(

This is what happens when one make "works" the pivotal point of salvation..... very sad.



Going out on a limb here, but I thinks you are under a lot of conviction about not having the walk to match the talk. If that's the case, you can change that and find peace and have no fear of the judgement that's coming to separate those who really do belong to Christ from those who don't. Breathe on our arm. If it feels warm there's still hope. It's after we die that we lose all chances to repent and make certain we belong to Christ through faith. I know this is not PC for a lot of people in and out of the church but it's the truth that can save a person.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
12,320
6,690
113
You have extraordinary powers then. :)
the power is called judgementalism. which Jesus said not to , unless we want to be judged. guess ralph kramdom thinks he is exempt. he is not.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
Here follow along.

Let's take a look at that commonly misused chapter. We will start in verse nine.


9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry,ye are God's building.

We are God's. His building. His vineyard. This verse speaksof each and every believer individually and God's ownership of them and Hislaboring with the labors (Apostles, prophets; evangelists, pastors andteachers) to ensure the vineyard (new converts, the laity, those who are butbabes) continues to be fruitful. As His building God uses His labors; theApostles, prophets; evangelists, pastors and teachers to ensure the newconverts, the laity, those who are but babes are built correctly and remainstable.

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, asa wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon.But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

We are GOD’s building. Our foundation is laid, Jesus Christ.This is confirmed in verse 11 "For other foundation can no man lay thanthat is laid, which is Jesus Christ."

What makes up the rest of the believer, the new convert, thelaity, those who are but babes is based upon the doctrine that a labourer or a"masterbuilder" like Paul or another used on them and or theiracceptance of the building material (the doctrine) used in constructing them.So if we have a ministry, (are a laborer; a master builder by the Grace of Godlike Paul) whose duty is the perfecting of the saints, for the work of theministry, we need take heed how we buildeth thereupon those to whom we areministering to.

In other words we need to be sure what we are teaching orshowing is the truth and of God. If we take part in the building of a house,and use shady material, it will not hold up. Will it? Same applies to the workof the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ. False doctrine or abad witness will only destroy those who fed on it or allow themselves to bebuilt with it.

Let's classify the doctrinal building material to whichGOD’s building (HIS People) are constructed of.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation; gold, silver,precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

The Foundation is Jesus Christ. That does not change. We asconverts are the building. Which means we are the material that was used toconstruct us. What type of building material we are will depend on ouracceptance of the New Covenant, the writing, or the putting of His will, HisCommandments, His Love on our hearts and minds. The building material that aprofessing Christian is depends on their acceptance of the Gospel. They will beas either gold, silver, and precious stones or wood, hay, and stubble

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the dayshall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall tryevery man's work of what sort it is.

Upon the Judgment Day every man’s; the laborers, or masterbuilders like Paul’s work, the buildings which are the converts, those undertheir ministry shall be manifested.
A professing Christian is what they believe and do. If theyare Gold, silver or precious stones they will be refined or cleansed by thefire. If they are wood, hay, or stubble they will be burned up, because that iswhat happens to it when fire is introduced to it. There will be weeping andgnashing of teeth.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, heshall receive are ward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall sufferloss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Some might take the latter part of verse fifth-teen to saythat even though the minister was a heretic in spreading false doctrine andbecause of their ministry people were lead astray and were burned up on theJudgement Day that they themselves are saved. That is not what the verse issaying at all. Otherwise the admonition in verse ten to take heed would be fornaught. Usually what ends up happening when building is various tradesmen cometo do the various aspects of building, Brick layers, Carpenters, Roofers...etc.etc. So is it with the making of a Christian. "And he gave some apostles;and some prophets; and some evangelists, some pastors and teachers. So just asit takes many tradesman, not all tradesmen are very apt at his trade and mayuse faulty material or poor craftsmanship. So is it with ministers with falsedoctrine or the leading by poor example as to how a Christian is to be and act.Through God if we are and have used the Gold, the Silver, and or the PreciousStones, at some point in the edification of any convert or ourselves; we didour part with God. But it is up to the building, the convert to maintain thebuilding. It is up to them whether or not they keep the Gold, the Silver, andor the Precious Stones within themselves. If they have not, and they have letanother builder remodel or they themselves remodeled and they use wood, hay andstubble. They will not hold up on the Last Day and they will be destroyed byGod's cleansing fire. But because we had the privilege to know them andlovingly share the precious gems that our Lord has placed in our capable handsfor the edifying, the building of those would be of the household of God, thebody of Christ. We will suffer loss because we love them for God is Love and asHe is so are we. We love them so much because they are a part of us, but theyare destroyed. So we will be sad as we will and are for all those who refusethe Gospel. But we will be saved. Because we did our part through God andshared His precious treasures found in His Word.


16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that theSpirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, himshall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.


We need to take heed as verse ten admonishes. Because if weourselves use inadequate material or lead by a poor example and cause a childof God to be defiled by it, or we ourselves are defiled by the use of theinadequate material; the spreading of heresy; sin. We will be destroyed. Thisis what verse sixteen and seventeen unfold.
I agree lightbearer. I was going to post this work that we do have last evening but wasn't the right timing.

2Ti 2:14 Remind others about these things, and warn them before God not to argue over words. Arguing does not do any good but only destroys those who are listening.


2Ti 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as an approved worker who has nothing to be ashamed of, handling the word of truth with precision.


2Ti 2:16 However, avoid pointless discussions. For people will become more and more ungodly,


2Ti 2:17 and what they say will spread everywhere like gangrene. Hymenaeus and Philetus are like that.


2Ti 2:18 They have abandoned the truth by claiming that the resurrection has already taken place, and so they destroy the faith of others.


2Ti 2:19 However, God's solid foundation still stands. It has this inscription on it: "The Lord knows those who belong to him," and "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord must turn away from evil."

This is the ISV. I like the KJV better, because it says to study. Study the scriptures. Seek to see Jesus out of what we study. That was His words when I began, and am grateful He did speak this.

So our work is to seek to know Him, and in this work, we are being changed into His likeness. For we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is. Then we give Him in truth and life to others.

The last scripture is when we turned from evil we were converted. Repentance isn't just that one time though. As we see Him, we repent or change our minds concerning Him.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
ONLY Yeshua has righteousness. Put it on as a breastplate. You can't claim a righteousness of your own.
If you do you, you are condemned.
We all know this. But that does not change the fact that if you do not have this righteousness of God showing in a changed/ changing life you do not really have that righteousness. You show that you do not belong to the Righteous One. If a person is reading this and is offended all they have to do is do what the Bible says to do about it and make their salvation sure to themselves by doing the work that saved, righteous people do. Then they can rest assured that they really are saved by faith in Christ and have nothing to worry about when he comes back. It is the person who won't, or can't do that that has to worry about the return of Christ.