word of faith movement

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7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
I know this is falling on deaf ears but maybe someone reading this will be helped. Reading has rules and you can't violate them. If you violate basic reading rules then even though you can spell and read words you are acting in an illiterate way. Reading in circles of literary context is one of the basic rules of reading. That means that words must be read in their sentence, a sentence must be read in its paragraph, a paragraph is a single unit of thought, a paragraph must be read in its chapter context and then the whole book context. Each of those contexts is in concentric cicles with its own circle starting from the center (a single sentence) and moving outwards to the largest context.

In verse 24 Jesus starts off "Therefore I say unto you..." that is a conclusion or explanation phrase of what Jesus is trying to get across in the preceding verses which He goes onto explain is all about prayer. That means whatever interpretation you make in vv 22 and 23 needs be in light of prayer to God not speaking to fig trees and mountains.

that's good

you should charge for this
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
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yeah

for me it was always a 'feeling' that things were not right. I was SO uncomfortable in my own skin...bad dreams, visions that were not from God...AND I KNEW they were not God but I could not stop them from happening because I had accepted them in the beginning

the whole time, it was like I was living a double life. I had been taught that Christians cannot be bothered by demons but then God mercifully introduced me to a ministry that taught the truth. proper teaching about the gifts and proper teaching about what demons can actually do and it is really a whole lot more than many people would be comfortable with

so, after prayer to be released from the whole nasty mess I was set free and you know what kind of a demon was hanging around and harassing me? a religious demon. a demon pretending to be the Holy Spirit

Christians cannot be possessed but they most certainly can be 'demonized'...or bothered. and I know what kind of feelings these things generate...you get emotionally high and think it's all good, but if you resist it (which I actually did many times) you get the nightmares and bizarre things happening and a very uncomfortable feeling

and then you have these other misled folks telling you that if it feels ok it is God. yeah. sure.

anyway....
Perceiving and understanding what is written has NOTHING to do with FEELINGS.
If you go about trying to believe anything, simply because others told you without seeing and understanding for yourself, then the devil isn't going to have much of a fight to get you to fall away.
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
591
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Is this evil or not? Please give your reasons why or why not
It is no concern to men

GOD knows and sees what is behind the outward profession

so one can say they have faith but if that outward profession doesn’t match that inward profession, GOD won’t be fooled
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
4,153
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I've always wondered that :p
And I've always wondered if WOF were true, why couldn't Paul use it to heal himself of the thorn in his side, or heal Timothy's stomach troubles?

Didn't either one of them have enough faith?
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
And I've always wondered if WOF were true, why couldn't Paul use it to heal himself of the thorn in his side, or heal Timothy's stomach troubles?

Didn't either one of them have enough faith?

well there ya go!

poor Paul...never had enough faith and Timothy musta been a whino
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
anyway...a big fog bank of misinformation might move in and I gotta do real life things

till later guys
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
3,100
180
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short term memory loss"

YOUR post 206



I posted an excerpt regarding WOF and that seemed to have offended you even though this discussion is actually all about WOF.

you keep trying to make it about personal beliefs

that is why you are having the difficulties with people who keep talking about WOF...maybe discuss WOF instead of personal issues :p

if we make a post about some personal experience, it is still regarding WOF or satellite cults
Okay, thanks for showing me what you were talking about.
I thought I didn't say anything like that to you. It didn't sound like me, and you really read into something that I never said nor meant.
The subject you brought up was about Keneth Hagin, and what I was saying is that I don't follow Hagin and what he did in life or how he died, it has no bearing on what is written, or what I believe, for that matter.
That which others have done does not effect the truth or that which is written. Neither should you or anyone else base their faith or believing in any doctrine simply because someone you might look up to, believes the same.
What I was getting at is that it doesn't matter to me about Hagin, whom I started out with.
Most of what I know today, I learned first hand from seeking God and studying the scriptures without any outside influence.
I look up to one man, and even if he were to fall, I could not change what I believe, because my foundation is in the word of God, NOT the man.
So, though other might be shaken or even fall, even those I look up to, I cannot be, so long as I keep my eyes on the word of God/Jesus.
I am focused on the spiritual truth of God's word, and the natural life of others does not always display or prove the truth.
I am not shaken by the failure of other either, I am moved only by what I believe, and since my foundation is deep in the rock, I cannot be moved away from what I believe or the truth anymore by the events that happen to others.
That is what I was getting at when I asked you to keep to the subject and stop bringing diversion to WHAT IS WRITTEN.
I am about what is written, not about what other have done.
I was asking you to keep it about what is written, that is all.
Do you now understand what I was saying?
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
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There is no "law of faith". God doesn't perform based on a formula. If that were so, none of you WOF people would ever fail.

You have no idea the anguish you cause when people bring their crippled or dying loved ones to these WOF events - only to turn around and take them back home in their state of suffering - while the WOF teachers have the audacity to claim "well, they just didn't have enough faith!"

Try explaining this "law of faith" to a teary-eyed parent as they push their child back out in the wheelchair they came in with.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

As you should be able to see, there is indeed a law of faith and it works just like every law in the natural. It never fails to perform as it was designed.
I suppose it's more comforting to tell the person that God is trying to teach them something out of this and that they have no hope at all except that when they die, at least they will no longer have to suffer, but will be with Jesus.
I understand how upsetting this can be for many, such a letdown, but again, if you can stop looking at and focusing on the natural all the time, and just look at what is written, you might be able to see the truth.
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
4,153
1,999
113
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

As you should be able to see, there is indeed a law of faith and it works just like every law in the natural. It never fails to perform as it was designed.
I suppose it's more comforting to tell the person that God is trying to teach them something out of this and that they have no hope at all except that when they die, at least they will no longer have to suffer, but will be with Jesus.
I understand how upsetting this can be for many, such a letdown, but again, if you can stop looking at and focusing on the natural all the time, and just look at what is written, you might be able to see the truth.
Boy, did you twist that verse! The context is talking about salvation, not WOF.

So then, by your understanding, Paul and Timothy didn't understand this "law"?
 
Jan 6, 2018
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Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

As you should be able to see, there is indeed a law of faith and it works just like every law in the natural. It never fails to perform as it was designed.
I suppose it's more comforting to tell the person that God is trying to teach them something out of this and that they have no hope at all except that when they die, at least they will no longer have to suffer, but will be with Jesus.
I understand how upsetting this can be for many, such a letdown, but again, if you can stop looking at and focusing on the natural all the time, and just look at what is written, you might be able to see the truth.
That doesn't say there is a law of faith to believe for things. It is about salvation is by faith not the law:


Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on obeying the law. It is based on faith.
Romans 3:27 NLT
https://bible.com/bible/116/rom.3.27.NLT
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
3,100
180
63
I know this is falling on deaf ears but maybe someone reading this will be helped. Reading has rules and you can't violate them. If you violate basic reading rules then even though you can spell and read words you are acting in an illiterate way. Reading in circles of literary context is one of the basic rules of reading. That means that words must be read in their sentence, a sentence must be read in its paragraph, a paragraph is a single unit of thought, a paragraph must be read in its chapter context and then the whole book context. Each of those contexts is in concentric cicles with its own circle starting from the center (a single sentence) and moving outwards to the largest context.

In verse 24 Jesus starts off "Therefore I say unto you..." that is a conclusion or explanation phrase of what Jesus is trying to get across in the preceding verses which He goes onto explain is all about prayer. That means whatever interpretation you make in vv 22 and 23 needs be in light of prayer to God not speaking to fig trees and mountains.
I see what you are saying but it still doesn't change what I see written. Verse 23 still says "SPEAK TO", and not pray for whatever.
Please interpret the word "say to" that is used in the bible and show me how it means pray for or ask God for something.
Jesus is saying that if you speak to or direct your speech to the mountain like I am directing my speech to you, then it will obey you.
Again, "you shall have whatsoever you SAY'. The Greeks had a word for pray and a word for say, and I'm very sure Matthew didn't get it wrong.
So how do you come up with Jesus telling us to pray to the Father in vs 23.
Basically what you are telling others is to not believe what you read in the sentence that starts out with, "this is a true statement in itself", or "verily/truly I Jesus say unto you".
Again, I ask you to interpret the verse, word for word and tell me what it says.
I don't want to know how it hurt or doesn't work for others, or anything else but a detailed interpretation of that verse.
Trying to get anyone to do this is like pulling teeth. It's hard.
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
3,100
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That doesn't say there is a law of faith to believe for things. It is about salvation is by faith not the law:


Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on obeying the law. It is based on faith.
Romans 3:27 NLT
https://bible.com/bible/116/rom.3.27.NLT
Rom 3:27 WhereG4226 is boastingG2746 then?G3767 It is excluded.G1576 ByG1223 whatG4169 law?G3551 of works?G2041 Nay:G3780 butG235 byG1223 the law G3551 of faith.G4102

LAW
G3551
νόμος
nomos
nom'-os
From a primary word νέμω nemō (to parcel out, especially food or grazing to animals); law (through the idea of prescriptive usage), generally (regulation), specifically (of Moses [including the volume]; also of the Gospel), or figuratively (a principle): - law.

LXX related word(s)
H1697 davar
H1881 dat
H2703 chuqqah
H2706 choq
H4687 mitsvah
H4941 mishpat
H6600 pitgam
H8452 torah

G3551
νόμος
nomos
Thayer Definition:
1) anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command
1a) of any law whatsoever
1a1) a law or rule producing a state approved of God
1a1a) by the observance of which is approved of God
1a2) a precept or injunction
1a3) the rule of action prescribed by reason
1b) of the Mosaic law, and referring, acc. to the context. either to the volume of the law or to its contents
1c) the Christian religion: the law demanding faith, the moral instruction given by Christ, especially the precept concerning love
1d) the name of the more important part (the Pentateuch), is put for the entire collection of the sacred books of the OT
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from a primary nemo (to parcel out, especially food or grazing to animals)
Citing in TDNT: 4:1022, 646



(AKJV-R) Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? No: but by the law of faith.
(AUV) Where then is the [basis for] boasting [i.e., over being right with God]? There is not any. Is it by [obedience to] a law? Is it by doing certain deeds? Not at all, but by a law of faith.
(ALT) Where then [is] the boasting? It was excluded. By what law? Of works? Not at all, but by a law of faith.
(ANT+) where?G4226 soG3767 TheG3588 BoastingG2746 [She] is excludedG1576 is excludedthroughG1223 whom?G4169 lawG3551 [of] theG3588 worksG2041 notG3780 butG235 is excludedthroughG1223 lawG3551 [of] faithG4102
(ASV) Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith.
(AS) Where then is their being boastings? Consequently it is shut-out. By what-sort- of law -then, of works? Not so, however by a Law of Confidence.
(BBE) What reason, then, is there for pride? It is shut out. By what sort of law? of works? No, but by a law of faith.(Complete Apostles' Bible) Where then is the boasting? It is excluded. Through what law? Of works? No, but through the law of faith.
(CTBible) Where then is this boasting? It is excluded. By what law? By that of works? No; but by a law of belief.
(DRB) Where is then thy boasting? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
(EWB-CB) Where is boasting [of the Jew] then ? It is excluded. - By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but -by a law of faith.
(EMTV) Where then is the boasting? It is excluded. Through what law? Of works? No, but through the law of faith.
(JB2000) Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? No, but by law of faith.
(ESV) Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.
(EVID) Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
(ECB) So where is boasting? It is excluded. Through what torah? Of works? Indeed not - but through the torah of trust.
(ERRB) Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By Through what law torah ? of works? Nay indeed : but by through the law torah of faith trust .
(FAA) So where is boasting? It is excluded. By what law? That of works? No, rather by the law of faith.


Instead of finding something that paraphrases the verse, which leaves out the actual words written, and by doing so is somewhat deceptive, you should show translations that show the accuracy of what is written, like the KJB.
What I did was to show you what was actually written. The word translated into law, is in the Greek writings, and is therefore saying, "THE LAW OF FAITH", which means there is a law of faith.
So with far more proof, and accuracy, THERE IS A LAW OF FAITH, AS IT IS WRITTEN.
 
Jan 6, 2018
1,796
154
63
Rom 3:27 WhereG4226 is boastingG2746 then?G3767 It is excluded.G1576 ByG1223 whatG4169 law?G3551 of works?G2041 Nay:G3780 butG235 byG1223 the law G3551 of faith.G4102

LAW
G3551
νόμος
nomos
nom'-os
From a primary word νέμω nemō (to parcel out, especially food or grazing to animals); law (through the idea of prescriptive usage), generally (regulation), specifically (of Moses [including the volume]; also of the Gospel), or figuratively (a principle): - law.

LXX related word(s)
H1697 davar
H1881 dat
H2703 chuqqah
H2706 choq
H4687 mitsvah
H4941 mishpat
H6600 pitgam
H8452 torah

G3551
νόμος
nomos
Thayer Definition:
1) anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command
1a) of any law whatsoever
1a1) a law or rule producing a state approved of God
1a1a) by the observance of which is approved of God
1a2) a precept or injunction
1a3) the rule of action prescribed by reason
1b) of the Mosaic law, and referring, acc. to the context. either to the volume of the law or to its contents
1c) the Christian religion: the law demanding faith, the moral instruction given by Christ, especially the precept concerning love
1d) the name of the more important part (the Pentateuch), is put for the entire collection of the sacred books of the OT
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from a primary nemo (to parcel out, especially food or grazing to animals)
Citing in TDNT: 4:1022, 646



(AKJV-R) Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? No: but by the law of faith.
(AUV) Where then is the [basis for] boasting [i.e., over being right with God]? There is not any. Is it by [obedience to] a law? Is it by doing certain deeds? Not at all, but by a law of faith.
(ALT) Where then [is] the boasting? It was excluded. By what law? Of works? Not at all, but by a law of faith.
(ANT+) where?G4226 soG3767 TheG3588 BoastingG2746 [She] is excludedG1576 is excludedthroughG1223 whom?G4169 lawG3551 [of] theG3588 worksG2041 notG3780 butG235 is excludedthroughG1223 lawG3551 [of] faithG4102
(ASV) Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith.
(AS) Where then is their being boastings? Consequently it is shut-out. By what-sort- of law -then, of works? Not so, however by a Law of Confidence.
(BBE) What reason, then, is there for pride? It is shut out. By what sort of law? of works? No, but by a law of faith.(Complete Apostles' Bible) Where then is the boasting? It is excluded. Through what law? Of works? No, but through the law of faith.
(CTBible) Where then is this boasting? It is excluded. By what law? By that of works? No; but by a law of belief.
(DRB) Where is then thy boasting? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
(EWB-CB) Where is boasting [of the Jew] then ? It is excluded. - By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but -by a law of faith.
(EMTV) Where then is the boasting? It is excluded. Through what law? Of works? No, but through the law of faith.
(JB2000) Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? No, but by law of faith.
(ESV) Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.
(EVID) Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
(ECB) So where is boasting? It is excluded. Through what torah? Of works? Indeed not - but through the torah of trust.
(ERRB) Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By Through what law torah ? of works? Nay indeed : but by through the law torah of faith trust .
(FAA) So where is boasting? It is excluded. By what law? That of works? No, rather by the law of faith.


Instead of finding something that paraphrases the verse, which leaves out the actual words written, and by doing so is somewhat deceptive, you should show translations that show the accuracy of what is written, like the KJB.
What I did was to show you what was actually written. The word translated into law, is in the Greek writings, and is therefore saying, "THE LAW OF FAITH", which means there is a law of faith.
So with far more proof, and accuracy, THERE IS A LAW OF FAITH, AS IT IS WRITTEN.
The translation I used shows the actual meaning. You are taking the words and putting a different meaning to them just like Satan did in the wilderness when he twisted the meaning of the verse.
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
3,100
180
63
I already have but it has fallen on deaf ears.
No, you did not sir, you merely said what it was about, or paraphrased it.
I asked you to interpret word for word, what is written, and you have continued to both ignore and refused to do so, just like Miss 7seas. I asked her to do the same as well, and it went ignored.
Why is that? Why are you both refusing to interpret that scripture, word for word? What are you afraid of?
That you might acknowledge the truth of what is actually written?
Why is that so hard to accept?
I would think you would want the truth, like you say.