What is "spiritually dead?"

[stonesoffire]

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


If you look at the words in Gen 2:17 at Blue Letter Bible, the site shows the words thou shalt surely die are the Hebrew words muwth muwth (the Hebrew word is repeated twice).

If you look at the words at biblehub, the site shows the Hebrew words as mō·wṯ tā·mūṯ and when you click on the link to the Hebrew word, in each case it links to H4191 muth.

My understanding of the repetition of the words in Gen 2:17 is that it means dying, you will die.

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof dying you will die.

So in my mind, there was a death which took place immediately when Adam and Eve ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, which then triggered their eventual physical death.

Hi renewed

But, they didn't die. Death began a process in their humanity. In dying you will die.

It makes more sense to me because man doesn't pass on spiritual death to all mankind. But, we do pass weaknesses on to generations.

I believe every baby receives Spirit from God but cannot say at conception or first breath.

 

[Locutus]

When your inner parrot looks like this:

 

[stonesoffire]

I see the concept of spiritually dead in scripture.

Ephesians 2:2 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

That's why I asked what you thought Ephesians 2 was about. Obviously, not physically dead, or we wouldn't be doing anything.

"Souly" Dead? Might or might not be, but that goes back to I don't get dichotomy and trichotomy. And I don't get it because the words "soul" and "spirit" are interchangeable in the Bible, at least to translators. It's often the same word in original language. (Communications degree makes me a stickler for words. lol)

And let me compound the communication problems we're having. (Because, hey, we're just not confusing each other enough yet. lol) I don't believe in spirits the way you do either. AND, I'm not entirely sure if you're one of the types that give names to concepts/types by calling them spirits. So, I don't know, when you said, "worldly spirit," if you meant what the world is like. Or if you meant something like "the spirit of Jezabel," "the spirit of the antichrist," or "the spirit of fornication," as if there are those kinds of spirits roaming the earth like it's Dickens' London for Scrooge's Christmas. I really see no meat on that side of a debate.

Just don't believe in "spirits of," but you might also be talking about the way the world sees things, which isn't that kind of "spirit of" thing. And yet, not entirely comfortable with worldly spirit because it's not just some kind of ephemeral substances that can blow away in just the right breeze. It is -- for lack of better word lol -- the soul of people without God. (I hope you appreciate I don't get dichotomy or trichotomy, but do recognize we are more than just flesh and blood even before God gave us new birth. ) It's the nature of humans apart from the Lord, and it isn't one we want to change or see any reason to change.

Which is why I think "spiritually dead", as described in Ephesian 2, isn't our nature was dead. (And I think we're using the same meaning when you call it soul and I call it nature, even though I don't entirely get the di/tri lesson.) Our nature remains in tact even after being regenerated. I'm the same stubborn, bullheaded, Mama Bear, but with a strong empathetic nature that I was before I was born again. But something awakened in me, I don't recognize from before the new-birth. It was absent/nonexistent/void before. Like I'm supposed to have three arms, but was only born with two. And that thing was what changed between that night I asked God to make himself as real to me as the actor on stage playing Jesus in the rock opera, Jesus Christ Superstar, to the next morning when God was realer than the dude on stage. Something showed up. A part of me that wasn't, suddenly was. Since it wasn't physical, and it wasn't soul or nature, what else could it be but spirit?

This happened to me --
Ephesians 2:2 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

We are talking past each other Lynn. You are misunderstanding what I'm saying and it's probably because I believe the scripture concerning spirit, soul, and body.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 May the God of peace himself make you holy in every way. And may your whole being—spirit, soul, and body—remain blameless when our Lord Jesus, the Messiah, appears.

When I say worldly spirit, I mean the spirit of the world.

1 Corinthians 2:12 Now, we have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who comes from God, so that we can understand the things that were freely given to us by God.

So our problem is that the years of study that I've done, including writings of others that I've read, have formed my beliefs, and apparently they aren't the same writings you read, and studies you have done.

Now, you are born again, right? So am I. You are baptized in Spirit by Jesus? So am I. We both have giftings, probably not the same, though they may be. Our unity is in Jesus. All these other things are good, but the body together as a whole, is most important. I hope you feel the same.

 

[stonesoffire]

When your inner parrot looks like this:

The spiritual joker of the forum. Lol

 

[stonesoffire]

You know Lynn, I just phrased spiritual death in every way I could think of, and came up with nothing. What did I miss?

 

[garee]

But, they didn't die. Death began a process in their humanity. In dying you will die.

It makes more sense to me because man doesn't pass on spiritual death to all mankind. But, we do pass weaknesses on to generations.

Good point .God corrupted the whole creation. In dying you will die.Not maybe you will. Death is paased from the genration of Adam to the same

In that way as soon as we are born the process of spiritual dead never to rise to new spirit life forever and ever begins .

When the corrupted spirit (temporal) dies so does any hope of being given a new one.

Believers as new creatures are saved as the "generation of Christ", the new Genesis.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Good point . God corrupted the whole creation.

"God corrupted the whole creation"????? Is that some kind of a sick statement, or did you simply make a mistake? If so you should apologize and retract this nonsense.

 

[stonesoffire]

"God corrupted the whole creation"????? Is that some kind of a sick statement, or did you simply make a mistake? If so you should apologize and retract this nonsense.

Rom 8:19 For the creation is eagerly awaiting the revelation of God's children,


Rom 8:20 because the creation has become subject to futility, though not by anything it did. The one who subjected it did so in the certainty


Rom 8:21 that the creation itself would also be set free from corrupting bondage in order to share the glorious freedom of God's children.


Rom 8:22 For we know that all the rest of creation has been groaning with the pains of childbirth up to the present time.


Rom 8:23 However, not only the creation, but we who have the first fruits of the Spirit also groan inwardly as we eagerly await our adoption, the redemption of our bodie

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Hi renewed

But, they didn't die. Death began a process in their humanity. In dying you will die.

Hi stones

My understanding is that "dying you will die" meant death ("dying") occurred at the moment they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Because of that death, the resulting "you will die" meant eventually you will die ... you will take your last breath ... the soul (nephesh chai - Gen 2:7 - breath of of life) will run its course resulting in the death of the physical body.

My understanding of what happened back in Gen 3:

The image of God, in which Adam and Eve were created (Gen 1:26-27), died the moment they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

The soul life which was breathed into Adam (Gen 2:7) continued to give life to the body formed by God until eventually the last breath was taken by Adam/Eve and they died.


All progeny of Adam was begotten in his (Adam's) likeness, after his image (Gen 5:3). We hear people say that all mankind is created in the image of God, but this is not true. Only Adam was created in the image of God. Even our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is referred to as the "only begotten" Son of God. "Created in the image of God" relates to Adam/Eve (Gen 1:26-27). Descendants of Adam who believe/have faith in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ are born again in our day and time. Those who believed/had faith in OT times will be resurrected to life everlasting in due time.

It makes more sense to me because man doesn't pass on spiritual death to all mankind. But, we do pass weaknesses on to generations.

Adam passed on his own likeness, after his image (which is whatever was left (body and soul) after Adam ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil).

I believe every baby receives Spirit from God but cannot say at conception or first breath.

Babies are born in the image/likeness of Adam (with the exception of Jesus Christ, the only begotten of the Father).

As far as infants/babies/children and/or those who have disabilities, I am confident that God is abundant in grace and mercy and I leave it to Him to show mercy on those He will show mercy.

As I look at Gen 3:21 and reflect on God's covering Adam and Eve in their nakedness (sin), I think of all of Adam and Eve's descendants (still in their loins) which were covered in that one act of God providing the covering for sin. It truly is man who turns from God through restraining the truth in unrighteousness (as shown in Rom 1:18) which results in those who find themselves facing the second death. So, so sad considering God's statement that He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked and His desire is that the wicked turn from their evil ways and live (Ez 33:11). The redemption found in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is freely offered to all of Adam's and Eve's descendants.

 

[stonesoffire]

YashaNet HomePage

SIDEBAR - "Skins of Light and Flesh"Most languages contain some words that, although they sound the same, are spelled a little differently and can mean very different things. The English phrase "there are too many two's to count" is one such example. Three different words, each spelled a little differently, and meaning very different things. And such is the case with the Hebrew language as well. Lets take a look at one fascinating example.
Before proceeding, however, it would be helpful to download and install a self-extracting Hebrew font (sefer.exe) so that you can see the actual Hebrew text for our example. This font is also used in the Footnotes section of our Derech HaShem study.
There are a number of people who believe that before Adam and Chava (Eve) sinned, they had bodies of light or bodies clothed with light, and that as a result of their sin, they lost their body/clothing of light. When examining the Hebrew language, this is not hard to see.

The Hebrew word for "Light" is "OR" (variant: 'or), spelled "aleph vav resh" - rut
(Remember, Hebrew is written from right to left)
The Hebrew word for "Skin" is also "OR" (variant: 'or), but is spelled "ayin vav resh" - rug​

​

​

The concept of man having a body clothed with light is not unfamiliar within Judaism as we can see in the passages of the Midrash Rabbah and Zohar shown below. The most pertinent portions are highlighted in bold except in the Midrash passage which is entirely about this subject.


Two Other Interesting Characteristics about Hebrew
1) Most people are aware that each Hebrew character has a numerical value. Thus, Aleph (t) = 1, Bet (c) = 2, etc. up to Tav (,) = 400 (1-9, 10-90, 100-400). Each letter can be combined together with other letters to represent a larger number (i.e. Mem + Gimel dn together equal 43, 40 + 3)
2) What is little known about Hebrew is that the ancient form of each letter represented a pictograph, or word picture. So, for example, Aleph represents an ox or bull, Bet represents a house, etc. More information about this can be obtained from two sources: "The Hebrew Letters - Channels of Creative Consciousness" by Rabbi Yitzchak Ginsburgh[SUP] 1[/SUP] and "Hebrew Word Pictures" by Frank T. Seekins.


Now, here is where it gets even more interesting. The only difference between the Hebrew words for light and skin is one letter: Aleph (t) for light and Ayin (g) for skin. Numerically, Aleph = 1 and Ayin = 70. The difference between them is 69, represented by the Hebrew letters Samech (x) and Tet (y) or yx. The pictograph of Samech is a prop, meaning, to support. The pictograph of Tet is a snake. Putting the two together, yx means, to support the snake! In other words, by supporting the snake (supporting or going along with the snake's arguments/ways) Adam and Chava (Eve) lost their skins of light and had to be given skins of flesh. And so it is that whenever we support or go along with the snake's arguments/ways we lose some of God's radiance in our lives and become more animalistic and debase in our nature.

But wait, there's more! As mentioned earlier, the letter Aleph represents an ox or bull, and means strength,leader, or first. The letter Ayin is represented by an eye and means to see, know or experience! Thus, when Adam and Chava (the first people on Earth) ate the forbidden fruit their eyes were opened and they began to know and experience good and evil.
[HR][/HR]Midrash Rabbah - Genesis XX:12

12. AND THE LORD GOD MADE FOR ADAM AND HIS WIFE GARMENTS OF SKIN (‘OR), AND CLOTHED THEM (III, 21). In R. Meir's Torah it was found written, ‘Garments of light (or) ‘[SUP]2[/SUP]: this refers to Adam's garments, which were like a torch [shedding radiance], broad at the bottom and narrow at the top. Isaac the Elder said: They were as smooth as a finger-nail and as beautiful as a jewel. R.Johanan said: They were like the fine linen garments which come from Bethshean,[SUP]3[/SUP] GARMENTS OF SKIN meaning those that are nearest to the skin. R. Eleazar said: They were of goats’ skin. R. Joshua said: Of hares’ skin. R. Jose b. R. Hanina said: It was a garment made of skin with its wool. Resh Lakish said: It was of Circassian wool, and these were used [later] by first-born children.[SUP]4[/SUP] R. Samuel b. Nahman said: [They were made from] the wool of camels and the wool of hares, GARMENTS OF SKIN meaning those which are produced from the skin.[SUP]5[/SUP]R. Levi said: The Torah teaches you here a rule of worldly wisdom: spend according to your means on food; less than you can afford on clothing, but more than you can afford on a dwelling. Spend according to your means on food, as it is written, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat (Gen. II, 16). Less than you can afford on clothing: AND THE LORD GOD MADE... GARMENTS OF SKIN, AND CLOTHED THEM.[SUP]6[/SUP] More than you can afford on a dwelling: for lo! they were but two, yet they dwelt in the whole world.[SUP]7[/SUP]
____________________
(2) [SIZE=+1]rut[/SIZE] light, instead of [SIZE=+1]rug[/SIZE] skin.
(3) V. supra, XIX, 1.
(4) When they used to perform the sacrificial service, before the priests were chosen for it; v. infra, LXIII, 13; Num. R. IV, 8.
(5) Viz. the wool that comes off it.
(6) I.e. only simple, not expensive garments.
(7) Cf. Pes. 114a; Hul. 84b.
[HR][/HR]Soncino Zohar, Bereshith, Section 1, Page 36b

AND THE EYES OF BOTH OF THEM WERE OPENED. R. Hiya says, their eyes were opened to the evil of the world, which they had not known hitherto. Then they knew that they were naked, since they had lost the celestial lustre which had formerly enveloped them, and of which they were now divested. AND THEY SEWED FIG LEAVES. They strove to cover themselves with the (delusive) images from the tree of which they had eaten, the so-called “leaves of the tree”. AND THEY MADE THEMSELVES GIRDLES. R. Jose said: ‘When they obtained knowledge of this world and attached themselves to it, they observed that it was governed by those “leaves of the tree”. They therefore sought in them a stronghold in this world, and so made themselves acquainted with all kinds of magical arts, in order to gird themselves with weapons of those leaves of the tree, for the purpose of self-protection.’ R. Judah said: ‘In this way three came up for judgement and were found guilty, and the terrestrial world was cursed and dislodged from its estate on account of the defilement of the serpent, until Israel stood before Mount Sinai.’ Afterwards God clothed Adam and Eve in garments soothing to the skin, as it is written, HE MADE THEM COATS OF SKIN ([SIZE=+2]rug[/SIZE] 'or). At first they had had coats of light ([SIZE=+2]rut[/SIZE] 'or), which procured them the service of the highest of the high, for the celestial angels used to come to enjoy that light; so it is written, “For thou hast made him but little lower than the angels, and crownest him with glory and honour” (Ps. VIII, 6). Now after their sins they had only coats of skin ([SIZE=+2]rug[/SIZE] 'or), good for the body but not for the soul.
[HR][/HR]Soncino Zohar, Shemoth, Section 2, Page 229b

‘Observe that man's soul does not ascend to appear before the Holy King unless she is first worthy to be attired in the supernal raiment. Likewise, the soul does not descend into this world until clad in the garments of this world. Similarly, the holy heavenly angels, of whom it is written, “Who makest thy angels into winds and thy ministers into flaming fire” (Ps. CIV, 4), when they have to execute a message in this world do not come down to it before they clothe themselves in the garments of this world. The attire thus has always to be in harmony with the place visited; and the soul, as we have said, can only ascend when clad in ethereal raiment. Adam in the Garden of Eden was attired in supernal raiment, of celestial radiancy. As soon as he was driven from the Garden of Eden and had need of forms suited to this world, “the Lord God”, Scripture says, “made for Adam and for his wife garments of skin ([SIZE=+2]rug[/SIZE] 'or), and clothed them” (Gen. III, 21). Formerly they were garments of light ([SIZE=+2]rut[/SIZE] 'or), to wit, of the celestial light in which Adam ministered in the Garden of Eden. For, inasmuch as it is the resplendency of the celestial light that ministers in the Garden of Eden, when first man entered into the Garden, the Holy One, blessed be He, clothed him first in the raiment of that light. Otherwise he could not have entered there. When driven out, however, he had need of other garments; hence “garments of skin”. So here also “they made residual garments to minister in the holy place”, so as to enable the wearer to enter the Sanctuary. Now, it has been already taught that a man's good deeds done in this world draw from the celestial resplendency of light a garment with which he may be invested when in the next world he comes to appear before the Holy One, blessed be He. Apparelled in that raiment, he is in a state of bliss and feasts his eyes on the radiant effulgence. So Scripture says: “To behold the graciousness of the Lord, and to visit early in his temple” (Ps. XXVII, 4). Man's soul is thus attired in the raiments of both worlds, the lower and the upper, thereby achieving perfection. Of this Scripture says: “Surely the righteous shall give thanks unto thy name”; to wit, in this world-”The upright shall dwell in thy presence” (Ibid. CXL, 14); namely, in the other world.’
[HR][/HR]1. The Hebrew Letters: Channels of Creative Consciousness - Rabbi Yitzchak GinsburghInsight into the infinite dimensions hidden beneath the surface of the letters of the Hebrew Aleph-Beit. Order online from http://www.inner-store.org/[HR][/HR]

 

[Depleted]

Hi renewed

But, they didn't die. Death began a process in their humanity. In dying you will die.

It makes more sense to me because man doesn't pass on spiritual death to all mankind. But, we do pass weaknesses on to generations.

I believe every baby receives Spirit from God but cannot say at conception or first breath.

But, no where did God say man would die, until then.

When hubby was at his first wife's side when she was having their son, he was very alarmed by the speed of the little tyke's heart beat. The nurse reassured him that everyone starts with quick heart beats and then they slow down until death. (Honest. That was reassuring to him. lol)

He got the idea that the one thing we will always go toward is death. We start dying at birth. For some it is a quick life. For others a long life, but we're always "dying to die."

Look at the curses the Lord put on Adam and Eve when they sinned. The world had no thorns before that. It had no poisonous anything -- plant or animal. Woman then got stuck with pains of child birth. That means we weren't supposed to give birth in pain before that. Her body deteriorated even at that moment. It mutated into something less than it was. And we've been mutating downward since. If you don't believe me, think of new flu strains coming every single year, new viruses, (there was a time when there was no AIDS), new forms of cancer, (and there was no HPV), etc. Were we supposed to physically die? Were we supposed to experience dying? Something big changed then. You can see it in the curse. You can see it even now.

Something changed physically. And because of that, something changed emotionally, mentally, and, yeah, spiritually. Corruption came.

 

[Depleted]

We are talking past each other Lynn. You are misunderstanding what I'm saying and it's probably because I believe the scripture concerning spirit, soul, and body.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 May the God of peace himself make you holy in every way. And may your whole being—spirit, soul, and body—remain blameless when our Lord Jesus, the Messiah, appears.

When I say worldly spirit, I mean the spirit of the world.

1 Corinthians 2:12 Now, we have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who comes from God, so that we can understand the things that were freely given to us by God.

So our problem is that the years of study that I've done, including writings of others that I've read, have formed my beliefs, and apparently they aren't the same writings you read, and studies you have done.

Now, you are born again, right? So am I. You are baptized in Spirit by Jesus? So am I. We both have giftings, probably not the same, though they may be. Our unity is in Jesus. All these other things are good, but the body together as a whole, is most important. I hope you feel the same.

To not get spiritual death does not mean you aren't born again. Again, born-again is of God's doing, so if you do or don't get that doesn't indicated if God has regenerated you, or me, or anyone.

BUT, it does mean something as far as getting we were dead, and now we are alive.

Alive seems easy enough to get for everyone. But how do you compare alive to dead, if you don't believe "dead?" It is like Locutus's/Monty Python's parrot.

[video=youtube;4vuW6tQ0218]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vuW6tQ0218[/video]

No matter how much the shopkeeper insists the parrot wasn't dead, it was an ex-parrot! Dead is dead. And since we know it's not physically dead for us, it has to be dead in another way.

OR the Bible wrong! And, if it is wrong, then either it is not God's word or God lied. And, if God lied, he's not God.

I'm stuck on this, because so many people are stuck on they did something to deserve salvation. No. Really. Dead people cannot do something to deserve salvation. Dead people cannot do.

Lazarus was raised from the dead, not from his ability to do something, but from Jesus who has all ability to raise people from the dead. Jesus raised him from the dead out of his love, not out of Lazarus's doability. And he raises dead people to new life for the same reason.

But not all people.

 

[Depleted]

You know Lynn, I just phrased spiritual death in every way I could think of, and came up with nothing. What did I miss?

Having just read my last post, if you agree with it, you missed nothing. lol

 

[Depleted]

"God corrupted the whole creation"????? Is that some kind of a sick statement, or did you simply make a mistake? If so you should apologize and retract this nonsense.

Speaking of nonsense, really? You don't believe in Genesis 3? That explains where the nonsense comes from.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Speaking of nonsense, really? You don't believe in Genesis 3? That explains where the nonsense comes from.

Genesis 3 does NOT translate into "God corrupted the whole creation". It was Adam who caused a curse to come upon the whole creation, so it should either state that or "Adam corrupted the whole creation through his disobedience".

 

[Depleted]

YashaNet HomePage

SIDEBAR - "Skins of Light and Flesh"Most languages contain some words that, although they sound the same, are spelled a little differently and can mean very different things. The English phrase "there are too many two's to count" is one such example. Three different words, each spelled a little differently, and meaning very different things. And such is the case with the Hebrew language as well. Lets take a look at one fascinating example.
Before proceeding, however, it would be helpful to download and install a self-extracting Hebrew font (sefer.exe) so that you can see the actual Hebrew text for our example. This font is also used in the Footnotes section of our Derech HaShem study.
There are a number of people who believe that before Adam and Chava (Eve) sinned, they had bodies of light or bodies clothed with light, and that as a result of their sin, they lost their body/clothing of light. When examining the Hebrew language, this is not hard to see.

The Hebrew word for "Light" is "OR" (variant: 'or), spelled "aleph vav resh" - rut
(Remember, Hebrew is written from right to left)
The Hebrew word for "Skin" is also "OR" (variant: 'or), but is spelled "ayin vav resh" - rug​

The concept of man having a body clothed with light is not unfamiliar within Judaism as we can see in the passages of the Midrash Rabbah and Zohar shown below. The most pertinent portions are highlighted in bold except in the Midrash passage which is entirely about this subject.


Two Other Interesting Characteristics about Hebrew
1) Most people are aware that each Hebrew character has a numerical value. Thus, Aleph (t) = 1, Bet (c) = 2, etc. up to Tav (,) = 400 (1-9, 10-90, 100-400). Each letter can be combined together with other letters to represent a larger number (i.e. Mem + Gimel dn together equal 43, 40 + 3)
2) What is little known about Hebrew is that the ancient form of each letter represented a pictograph, or word picture. So, for example, Aleph represents an ox or bull, Bet represents a house, etc. More information about this can be obtained from two sources: "The Hebrew Letters - Channels of Creative Consciousness" by Rabbi Yitzchak Ginsburgh[SUP]1[/SUP] and "Hebrew Word Pictures" by Frank T. Seekins.


Now, here is where it gets even more interesting. The only difference between the Hebrew words for light and skin is one letter: Aleph (t) for light and Ayin (g) for skin. Numerically, Aleph = 1 and Ayin = 70. The difference between them is 69, represented by the Hebrew letters Samech (x) and Tet (y) or yx. The pictograph of Samech is a prop, meaning, to support. The pictograph of Tet is a snake. Putting the two together, yx means, to support the snake! In other words, by supporting the snake (supporting or going along with the snake's arguments/ways) Adam and Chava (Eve) lost their skins of light and had to be given skins of flesh. And so it is that whenever we support or go along with the snake's arguments/ways we lose some of God's radiance in our lives and become more animalistic and debase in our nature.

But wait, there's more! As mentioned earlier, the letter Aleph represents an ox or bull, and means strength,leader, or first. The letter Ayin is represented by an eye and means to see, know or experience! Thus, when Adam and Chava (the first people on Earth) ate the forbidden fruit their eyes were opened and they began to know and experience good and evil.
[HR][/HR]Midrash Rabbah - Genesis XX:12

12. AND THE LORD GOD MADE FOR ADAM AND HIS WIFE GARMENTS OF SKIN (‘OR), AND CLOTHED THEM (III, 21). In R. Meir's Torah it was found written, ‘Garments of light (or) ‘[SUP]2[/SUP]: this refers to Adam's garments, which were like a torch [shedding radiance], broad at the bottom and narrow at the top. Isaac the Elder said: They were as smooth as a finger-nail and as beautiful as a jewel. R.Johanan said: They were like the fine linen garments which come from Bethshean,[SUP]3[/SUP] GARMENTS OF SKIN meaning those that are nearest to the skin. R. Eleazar said: They were of goats’ skin. R. Joshua said: Of hares’ skin. R. Jose b. R. Hanina said: It was a garment made of skin with its wool. Resh Lakish said: It was of Circassian wool, and these were used [later] by first-born children.[SUP]4[/SUP] R. Samuel b. Nahman said: [They were made from] the wool of camels and the wool of hares, GARMENTS OF SKIN meaning those which are produced from the skin.[SUP]5[/SUP]R. Levi said: The Torah teaches you here a rule of worldly wisdom: spend according to your means on food; less than you can afford on clothing, but more than you can afford on a dwelling. Spend according to your means on food, as it is written, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat (Gen. II, 16). Less than you can afford on clothing: AND THE LORD GOD MADE... GARMENTS OF SKIN, AND CLOTHED THEM.[SUP]6[/SUP] More than you can afford on a dwelling: for lo! they were but two, yet they dwelt in the whole world.[SUP]7[/SUP]
____________________
(2) [SIZE=+1]rut[/SIZE] light, instead of [SIZE=+1]rug[/SIZE] skin.
(3) V. supra, XIX, 1.
(4) When they used to perform the sacrificial service, before the priests were chosen for it; v. infra, LXIII, 13; Num. R. IV, 8.
(5) Viz. the wool that comes off it.
(6) I.e. only simple, not expensive garments.
(7) Cf. Pes. 114a; Hul. 84b.
[HR][/HR]Soncino Zohar, Bereshith, Section 1, Page 36b

AND THE EYES OF BOTH OF THEM WERE OPENED. R. Hiya says, their eyes were opened to the evil of the world, which they had not known hitherto. Then they knew that they were naked, since they had lost the celestial lustre which had formerly enveloped them, and of which they were now divested. AND THEY SEWED FIG LEAVES. They strove to cover themselves with the (delusive) images from the tree of which they had eaten, the so-called “leaves of the tree”. AND THEY MADE THEMSELVES GIRDLES. R. Jose said: ‘When they obtained knowledge of this world and attached themselves to it, they observed that it was governed by those “leaves of the tree”. They therefore sought in them a stronghold in this world, and so made themselves acquainted with all kinds of magical arts, in order to gird themselves with weapons of those leaves of the tree, for the purpose of self-protection.’ R. Judah said: ‘In this way three came up for judgement and were found guilty, and the terrestrial world was cursed and dislodged from its estate on account of the defilement of the serpent, until Israel stood before Mount Sinai.’ Afterwards God clothed Adam and Eve in garments soothing to the skin, as it is written, HE MADE THEM COATS OF SKIN ([SIZE=+2]rug[/SIZE] 'or). At first they had had coats of light ([SIZE=+2]rut[/SIZE] 'or), which procured them the service of the highest of the high, for the celestial angels used to come to enjoy that light; so it is written, “For thou hast made him but little lower than the angels, and crownest him with glory and honour” (Ps. VIII, 6). Now after their sins they had only coats of skin ([SIZE=+2]rug[/SIZE] 'or), good for the body but not for the soul.
[HR][/HR]Soncino Zohar, Shemoth, Section 2, Page 229b

‘Observe that man's soul does not ascend to appear before the Holy King unless she is first worthy to be attired in the supernal raiment. Likewise, the soul does not descend into this world until clad in the garments of this world. Similarly, the holy heavenly angels, of whom it is written, “Who makest thy angels into winds and thy ministers into flaming fire” (Ps. CIV, 4), when they have to execute a message in this world do not come down to it before they clothe themselves in the garments of this world. The attire thus has always to be in harmony with the place visited; and the soul, as we have said, can only ascend when clad in ethereal raiment. Adam in the Garden of Eden was attired in supernal raiment, of celestial radiancy. As soon as he was driven from the Garden of Eden and had need of forms suited to this world, “the Lord God”, Scripture says, “made for Adam and for his wife garments of skin ([SIZE=+2]rug[/SIZE] 'or), and clothed them” (Gen. III, 21). Formerly they were garments of light ([SIZE=+2]rut[/SIZE] 'or), to wit, of the celestial light in which Adam ministered in the Garden of Eden. For, inasmuch as it is the resplendency of the celestial light that ministers in the Garden of Eden, when first man entered into the Garden, the Holy One, blessed be He, clothed him first in the raiment of that light. Otherwise he could not have entered there. When driven out, however, he had need of other garments; hence “garments of skin”. So here also “they made residual garments to minister in the holy place”, so as to enable the wearer to enter the Sanctuary. Now, it has been already taught that a man's good deeds done in this world draw from the celestial resplendency of light a garment with which he may be invested when in the next world he comes to appear before the Holy One, blessed be He. Apparelled in that raiment, he is in a state of bliss and feasts his eyes on the radiant effulgence. So Scripture says: “To behold the graciousness of the Lord, and to visit early in his temple” (Ps. XXVII, 4). Man's soul is thus attired in the raiments of both worlds, the lower and the upper, thereby achieving perfection. Of this Scripture says: “Surely the righteous shall give thanks unto thy name”; to wit, in this world-”The upright shall dwell in thy presence” (Ibid. CXL, 14); namely, in the other world.’
[HR][/HR]1. The Hebrew Letters: Channels of Creative Consciousness - Rabbi Yitzchak GinsburghInsight into the infinite dimensions hidden beneath the surface of the letters of the Hebrew Aleph-Beit. Order online from http://www.inner-store.org/[HR][/HR]

Bah! Your eyes have held out longer than mine. (I needed glasses at one years old, so not hard to do. lol) I'm sure most people could read this. I got a headache in the first sentence, and it got worse in the second, so I couldn't read it. Sorry 'bout that.

 

[stonesoffire]

But, no where did God say man would die, until then.

When hubby was at his first wife's side when she was having their son, he was very alarmed by the speed of the little tyke's heart beat. The nurse reassured him that everyone starts with quick heart beats and then they slow down until death. (Honest. That was reassuring to him. lol)

He got the idea that the one thing we will always go toward is death. We start dying at birth. For some it is a quick life. For others a long life, but we're always "dying to die."

Look at the curses the Lord put on Adam and Eve when they sinned. The world had no thorns before that. It had no poisonous anything -- plant or animal. Woman then got stuck with pains of child birth. That means we weren't supposed to give birth in pain before that. Her body deteriorated even at that moment. It mutated into something less than it was. And we've been mutating downward since. If you don't believe me, think of new flu strains coming every single year, new viruses, (there was a time when there was no AIDS), new forms of cancer, (and there was no HPV), etc. Were we supposed to physically die? Were we supposed to experience dying? Something big changed then. You can see it in the curse. You can see it even now.

Something changed physically. And because of that, something changed emotionally, mentally, and, yeah, spiritually. Corruption came.

I agree corruption came. Or was the question about believing you in this directed to Nehemiah?

 

[stonesoffire]

​YashaNet HomePage

SIDEBAR - "Skins of Light and Flesh"Most languages contain some words that, although they sound the same, are spelled a little differently and can mean very different things. The English phrase "there are too many two's to count" is one such example. Three different words, each spelled a little differently, and meaning very different things. And such is the case with the Hebrew language as well. Lets take a look at one fascinating example.
Before proceeding, however, it would be helpful to download and install a self-extracting Hebrew font (sefer.exe) so that you can see the actual Hebrew text for our example. This font is also used in the Footnotes section of our Derech HaShem study.
There are a number of people who believe that before Adam and Chava (Eve) sinned, they had bodies of light or bodies clothed with light, and that as a result of their sin, they lost their body/clothing of light. When examining the Hebrew language, this is not hard to see.

The Hebrew word for "Light" is "OR" (variant: 'or), spelled "aleph vav resh" - rut
(Remember, Hebrew is written from right to left)
The Hebrew word for "Skin" is also "OR" (variant: 'or), but is spelled "ayin vav resh" - rug​

The concept of man having a body clothed with light is not unfamiliar within Judaism as we can see in the passages of the Midrash Rabbah and Zohar shown below. The most pertinent portions are highlighted in bold except in the Midrash passage which is entirely about this subject.


Two Other Interesting Characteristics about Hebrew
1) Most people are aware that each Hebrew character has a numerical value. Thus, Aleph (t) = 1, Bet (c) = 2, etc. up to Tav (,) = 400 (1-9, 10-90, 100-400). Each letter can be combined together with other letters to represent a larger number (i.e. Mem + Gimel dn together equal 43, 40 + 3)
2) What is little known about Hebrew is that the ancient form of each letter represented a pictograph, or word picture. So, for example, Aleph represents an ox or bull, Bet represents a house, etc. More information about this can be obtained from two sources: "The Hebrew Letters - Channels of Creative Consciousness" by Rabbi Yitzchak Ginsburgh[SUP]1[/SUP] and "Hebrew Word Pictures" by Frank T. Seekins.


Now, here is where it gets even more interesting. The only difference between the Hebrew words for light and skin is one letter: Aleph (t) for light and Ayin (g) for skin. Numerically, Aleph = 1 and Ayin = 70. The difference between them is 69, represented by the Hebrew letters Samech (x) and Tet (y) or yx. The pictograph of Samech is a prop, meaning, to support. The pictograph of Tet is a snake. Putting the two together, yx means, to support the snake! In other words, by supporting the snake (supporting or going along with the snake's arguments/ways) Adam and Chava (Eve) lost their skins of light and had to be given skins of flesh. And so it is that whenever we support or go along with the snake's arguments/ways we lose some of God's radiance in our lives and become more animalistic and debase in our nature.

But wait, there's more! As mentioned earlier, the letter Aleph represents an ox or bull, and means strength,leader, or first. The letter Ayin is represented by an eye and means to see, know or experience! Thus, when Adam and Chava (the first people on Earth) ate the forbidden fruit their eyes were opened and they began to know and experience good and evil.
​

 

[stonesoffire]

Light originally, but darkness came within. Not death. We are spiritual beings first. Spirit, have soul, live in body.

With Jesus, Light has come again.

The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord. OT...forgot where but easy to find.

If it is to die at all, will be the second death to the wicked.

Is how and and why I see this with this understanding.


Back to trying a nap. Am old ya know.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Light originally, but darkness came within. Not death.

That statement does not mesh with what is written in Genesis 2:17 in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die [dying at the time (image of God [spirit] died] you shall die [you will eventually take your last breath and your body will die)].

We are spiritual beings first. Spirit, have soul, live in body.

Adam and Eve were spiritual beings first. Then that spirit within died at the time they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, leaving Adam and Eve with body and soul and non-living (dead) spirit.

Adam's descendants were/are/will be begotten in his [Adam's] likeness, after his image (Gen 5:3).

In OT, Holy Spirit came upon those who God determined. There was no indwelling of the Holy Spirit at that time. Holy Spirit could also depart as determined by God (1 Sam 16:14). David prayed that God would not take away holy spirit from him (Psalm 51:11).

After Day of Pentecost, those who are born again have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That spirit which was not alive at birth is made alive at new birth. Then there is spiritual growth/maturity which takes place as we learn to walk in light of who and what we are in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. We become weak in who we were in Adam and we become strong in who we are in Christ. And it is God Who works within us and we are confident that He which hath begun a good work in [us] will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ (at which point we will be changed as shown in 1 Cor 15).

With Jesus, Light has come again.

Yes. Jesus is the true Light (John 1:7-9).

The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord. OT...forgot where but easy to find.

Proverbs 20:27 The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

If it is to die at all, will be the second death to the wicked.

Is how and and why I see this with this understanding.

My understanding is that those who take part in the second death are those whose names were blotted out of the book of life due to continuous rejection of God when He reached out to them during their lifetime on earth. They restrained the truth in unrighteousness when God knocked on the doors of their hearts. So sad.

Back to trying a nap. Am old ya know.

Rest well.