You version of Revelation does not erase the Biblical fact that humans are not born immortal. This is catholic doctrine that has been accepted as truth by "Many" who come in His name. But it isn't true. "Christ" alone has immortality and He will bring this "Gift" to others when He comes back. You want to preach you are immortal, that is fine, it's your doctrine. But there is no coming back from the 2nd death. This is just another of the many untruths told by mainstream religions.
State of the Dead. what happens when you die. ???
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You version of Revelation does not erase the Biblical fact that humans are not born immortal. This is catholic doctrine that has been accepted as truth by "Many" who come in His name. But it isn't true. "Christ" alone has immortality and He will bring this "Gift" to others when He comes back. You want to preach you are immortal, that is fine, it's your doctrine. But there is no coming back from the 2nd death. This is just another of the many untruths told by mainstream religions.
about John 3:13 scripture can not conflict with scripture.
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These two, in the vision, represented the offices of church and state,
with and under Christ, as they will be in God’s kingdom in the near future.
What will Gods Kingdom or [government] be like maybe ? what we know
The Government of God on earth soon will be made of members of Gods Family.
-
God Almighty—the Father of Jesus Christ—is Supreme Lawgiver,
and Head over Christ, and over all that is. Ephesians 1:22
And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over
all things to the church, "My Father is greater than I" (John 14:28, 20:17 ).
We know that Jesus Christ is to be King of kings, and Lord of lords
over both state and church, united through him.
And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written,
KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. Revelation 19:16
Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate,
the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 1 Timothy 6:15
These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them:
for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are
called, and chosen, and faithful. Revelation 17:14
All others, in positions of governmental authority[kings-rulers], will be
resurrected immortals, born of God—no longer flesh-and-blood humans.
Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved
the church, and gave himself for it;
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church:
and he is the saviour of the body. (Ephesians 5:23) -Husbands, love your wives,
even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; (Ephesians 5:25
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn
from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.Colossians 1:18
For many are called, but few are chosen. Matthew 22:14
Abraham , the father of all who are Christ’s and heirs of salvation
given a greater position of authority in God’s kingdom than David
and that he will be over both Israelites and gentiles.
He is “father” of gentile converts as well as Israelites.
Then again, repeatedly the Bible uses the phrase, “Abraham,
Isaac and Jacob,” grouping them together as a team, and calling
them, together, “the fathers.” For the promises were repromised,
also, to Isaac and Jacob, whose name was changed to Israel.
There will be one Church—one God—one religion—one educational
system—one social order.
And, as in God’s original pattern in ancient Israel, they will be united.
Three men—Peter, James and John, among the original twelve disciples
were privileged to see the kingdom of God in a vision (Matthew 17:9).
this vision—this glimpse into the coming kingdom
and they were Moses and Elijah. These two, in the vision, represented
the offices of church and state, with and under Christ, as they will be in
God’s kingdom. Both Moses and Elijah qualified in their human lifetime
for very high positions in the kingdom of God.
Moses was the one through whom Christ gave the laws and the statutes of
government Moses was trained as a son of a pharaoh (king of Egypt). His
trainingand experience were among gentiles, as well as the children of Israel.
Elijah, above all others, is represented in Scripture as the prophet who
restored the worship of the true God—and obedienceto his commandments.
When Elijah ordered King Ahab togather on Mount Carmel “all Israel”
(1 Kings 18:19-21)through(verse 39).
The vision of the Transfiguration (Matthew 16:27 through 17:9) gave
the apostles Peter, James and John a preview of Christ coming in his kingdom
Moses over all organized national and international government;
Elijah, over all organized church, religious and educational activity.
And it is significant that Elijah had organized and headed three schools
or colleges (2 Kings 2:3, 5;4:38—at Bethel, Jericho and Gilgal) teaching
God’s truth in a world corrupted by false pagan education.
tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh (descended from Joseph),
will become the two leading nations of the world (Jeremiah
30:16-18; 31:4-11, 18-20; Isaiah 14:1-2; Deuteronomy 28:13).
We know that King David of ancient Israel will be king over the twelve
great nations composed of literal descendants of the twelve tribes of Israel.
We know the twelve apostles will each be a king, sitting on a throne,
over one of those great nations descended from the tribes of Israel.
King David, will be king, under Moses, over all twelve nations of Israel
(Jeremiah 30:9; Ezekiel 34:23-24; 37:24-25).
Each of the original twelve apostles will be king, under David,
over one of these nations (Matthew 19:28).
The parables of the pounds (Luke 19:11-27)and talents(Matthew 25:14-30)
under Moses. What prophet—what man of God— did God send to be trained
at top-level government authority, in the world’s very first world empire?
When God, through the prophet Ezekiel, named three of the most righteous
men who ever lived, he named Daniel as one of them. The other two were
Noah and Job (Ezekiel 14:14, 20). And it is evident that God will assign Noah
and Job to offices of very great magnitude.
possibility, in passing, to consider that
Daniel’s three colleagues in this Chaldean Empire service—Shadrach,
Meshach and Abed-nego—might serve as a team(Daniel 12:13).
Joseph became food administrator of the greatest nation on earth of that time
—Egypt. Joseph was synonymous with “prosperity.” “And the Lord was with
Joseph, and he was a prosperous man; and … the Lord made all that he did
to prosper in his hand” (Genesis 39:2-3).
The structures Christ will require for the world he will create. “And they shall
build the old wastes, they shall raise up the formerdesolations, and they shall
repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations” (Isaiah 61:4).
Job was the wealthiest and greatest man of the east (Job 1:3) and a noted
builder. (Compare Job 3:13-14 with God’s challenge in Job 38:4-6.) He was
so upright and perfect, God even dared Satan to find a flaw in his character.
Actually, there was a terrible sin in his life—self-righteousness. But God
brought him to repentance. (See Job, chapters 38-42.)
At least one other man seems indicated as a top assistant in this
vast administration. That is Zerubbabel (Haggai, and Zechariah 4).
When Jesus Christ returns to earth in the full supreme power and glory of
the Creator God, he is coming, this time, to save the world, spiritually.
Christ, himself, will be ruling from Jerusalem.
Stationed there with Christ, under immediate direction of Elijah, it is indicated,
will be those immortals chosen by Christ to constitute the Headquarters Church.
Revelation 3:12 indicates those of the“Philadelphia era” will be pillars in that
Headquarters Church.
Next, in this all-important Headquarters Church organization, working with
and directly under Elijah, it appears, will be the resurrected John the Baptist.
He came “in the spirit and power of [Elijah]” (Luke 1:17).
Of him, Jesus said, “Verily I say unto you, Among them that are
born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist …”
He was the Elijah prophesied to come (Matthew 11:7-11).
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And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom,
and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
They cannot reproduce by sexual intercourse or any other means
(see Luke 20:34-36; Matthew 22:30; Mark 12:25)
hope I see you all there
Ecclesiastes 12:6-7
6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher
be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern (flesh body dies).
7 Then shall the dust (flesh body) return to the earth as it was:
and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
-
2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body,
and to be present with the Lord.
Now let's examine absent from the body...
Many people quote this verse out of context to prove immediate judgment and reward
or punishment. This is not the meaning Paul intended. This statement is a colloquialism
that Paul used. Let's see this...
1Co 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already,
as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
Where was Paul? In spirit present in heaven? Nope, he was not at Corinth but he was
on the earth as a human being in the flesh.
Col 2:5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and
beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.
This verse clarifies what he meant by being absent from the body (the church)
but present in spirit.
His colloquialism is separated from us by nearly 2000 years. Do we use any colloquialisms
today that would be difficult for those 2000 years ago to understand. Think about it.
Just a note as to why Christ spoke in parables...
Mat 13:13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see,
and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:
'HEARING YOU WILL HEAR AND SHALL NOT UNDERSTAND,
AND SEEING YOU WILL SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE;
Christ spoke in parables to hide the meanings from those who are not called
and had this particular miracle occur in their lives...
Luk 24:45 And He opened their understanding,
that they might comprehend the Scriptures.
This takes special intervention and is not a wholesale act.
It is only done for those whom the Father calls in this age...
Joh 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;
and I will raise him up at the last day. And He said, "Therefore I have said to
you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
Not all are called in this age. God has a 7000 year plan to save all mankind...
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day
is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness,
but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should
come to repentance.
Now this is not universal salvation, it plainly says God is not WILLING. If one does
choose, in full knowledge of the truth, to reject God, then there is an end for them...
Rev 20:13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up
the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Mal 4:1 "For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes,
all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,"
Says the LORD of hosts, "That will leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But to you who fear My name The Sun of Righteousness shall arise With
healing in His wings; And you shall go out And grow fat like stall-fed calves.
Mal 4:3 You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of
your feet On the day that I do this," Says the LORD of hosts.
Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.
But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Unfortunately, there are those who will choose to reject God's mercy
and salvation but it will be the few, not the many.
There end result is not endless torment in an everburning fire, God simply puts them
out of existence so they are not miserable and they do not make those around them miserable.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son,
that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Word here for perish is...
a?p?´???µ?
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose),
literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
Not life in hell, but death...
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death;
but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
God is merciful to even those who refuse, He does not allow them to suffer
for eternity, He simply puts them out of existence.
6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher
be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern (flesh body dies).
7 Then shall the dust (flesh body) return to the earth as it was:
and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
-
2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body,
and to be present with the Lord.
Now let's examine absent from the body...
Many people quote this verse out of context to prove immediate judgment and reward
or punishment. This is not the meaning Paul intended. This statement is a colloquialism
that Paul used. Let's see this...
1Co 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already,
as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
Where was Paul? In spirit present in heaven? Nope, he was not at Corinth but he was
on the earth as a human being in the flesh.
Col 2:5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and
beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.
This verse clarifies what he meant by being absent from the body (the church)
but present in spirit.
His colloquialism is separated from us by nearly 2000 years. Do we use any colloquialisms
today that would be difficult for those 2000 years ago to understand. Think about it.
Just a note as to why Christ spoke in parables...
Mat 13:13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see,
and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:
'HEARING YOU WILL HEAR AND SHALL NOT UNDERSTAND,
AND SEEING YOU WILL SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE;
Christ spoke in parables to hide the meanings from those who are not called
and had this particular miracle occur in their lives...
Luk 24:45 And He opened their understanding,
that they might comprehend the Scriptures.
This takes special intervention and is not a wholesale act.
It is only done for those whom the Father calls in this age...
Joh 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;
and I will raise him up at the last day. And He said, "Therefore I have said to
you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
Not all are called in this age. God has a 7000 year plan to save all mankind...
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day
is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness,
but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should
come to repentance.
Now this is not universal salvation, it plainly says God is not WILLING. If one does
choose, in full knowledge of the truth, to reject God, then there is an end for them...
Rev 20:13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up
the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Mal 4:1 "For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes,
all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,"
Says the LORD of hosts, "That will leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But to you who fear My name The Sun of Righteousness shall arise With
healing in His wings; And you shall go out And grow fat like stall-fed calves.
Mal 4:3 You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of
your feet On the day that I do this," Says the LORD of hosts.
Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.
But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Unfortunately, there are those who will choose to reject God's mercy
and salvation but it will be the few, not the many.
There end result is not endless torment in an everburning fire, God simply puts them
out of existence so they are not miserable and they do not make those around them miserable.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son,
that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Word here for perish is...
a?p?´???µ?
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose),
literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
Not life in hell, but death...
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death;
but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
God is merciful to even those who refuse, He does not allow them to suffer
for eternity, He simply puts them out of existence.
present or absent with the Lord ?
earnestly desiring to be [clothed upon] with our house which is [from] heaven:
-
2Co 5:1 For we know that if the earthly house of our tabernacle be dissolved,
we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens.
-Paul uses the tabernacle to represent our earthly house/body which will be
dissolved/mortal. but we have a building form God a house not made with hands,
eternal/immortal, in the heavens.
why is Paul saying this? The context from the prior chapter will help:
2Co 4:16 Wherefore we faint not; but though our outward man is decaying,
yet our inward man is renewed day by day. For our light affliction, which is for
the moment, worketh for us more and more exceedingly an eternal weight of glory;
while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen:
for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
-Our outward man/tabernacle/body is decaying it is mortal but we have faith
in the things that are eternal. What is this in relation to? when will this be?
2Co 4:14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus
shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.
-So Paul faints not because of the Grace God gives and the promise that
this corrupt outward mortal man will be raised to eternal life just as Jesus was.
So again Paul says:
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be [clothed upon] with our house
which is [from] heaven: 2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
-We want that clothing that is from heaven. what clothing?
2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that
we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
-mortality might put on life or immortality in other words.
Remember Paul has already connected the Resurrection with this in chapter 4.
but lets make it clear before we go on in the chapter:
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption;
it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory:
it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.
There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy,
we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be
changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet
shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on
immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and
this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying
that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
-This all takes place at the last trump at the coming of Christ. when our
mortal bodies are clothed in immortality changed in the twinkling of an eye.
-What does Paul mean we shall not all sleep and the last trump?
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them
which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,
even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive
and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice
of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them
in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
-So the last Trump is at the second coming of Jesus, and we shall not all sleep
but some will still be alive and remain. Those who sleep are resurrected at this time.
So lets go back to the texts in question:
2Co 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God,
who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are
at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight)
-So through the earnestness of the Spirit they walk by faith not by sight,
in this earthly body and are absent from the Lord. because they are here
on earth and the judgment has not yet come. but:
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body,
and to be present with the Lord.
-They are willing or want to be absent from the body and present with the Lord.
Contextually we have seen this happens at the resurrection not instantly.
Paul does not say or even infer that this is instantaneous at all. He simply says
he would like to be out of this mortal body and to be present with the Lord.
He does not even say that one equals the other but rather he wants to with the Lord.
Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
Notice that he says, "present or absent" we may be accepted of him.
If being absent means He is already with the Lord then
how is it that the absent still hopes to be accepted of him?
Paul is simply saying that they labour in life by faith in this mortal body.
and the works that they do will follow them even in death/absent.
As it is written:
Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write,
Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the
Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ;
that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to
that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Heb_9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die,
but after this the judgment:
earnestly desiring to be [clothed upon] with our house which is [from] heaven:
-
2Co 5:1 For we know that if the earthly house of our tabernacle be dissolved,
we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens.
-Paul uses the tabernacle to represent our earthly house/body which will be
dissolved/mortal. but we have a building form God a house not made with hands,
eternal/immortal, in the heavens.
why is Paul saying this? The context from the prior chapter will help:
2Co 4:16 Wherefore we faint not; but though our outward man is decaying,
yet our inward man is renewed day by day. For our light affliction, which is for
the moment, worketh for us more and more exceedingly an eternal weight of glory;
while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen:
for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
-Our outward man/tabernacle/body is decaying it is mortal but we have faith
in the things that are eternal. What is this in relation to? when will this be?
2Co 4:14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus
shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.
-So Paul faints not because of the Grace God gives and the promise that
this corrupt outward mortal man will be raised to eternal life just as Jesus was.
So again Paul says:
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be [clothed upon] with our house
which is [from] heaven: 2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
-We want that clothing that is from heaven. what clothing?
2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that
we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
-mortality might put on life or immortality in other words.
Remember Paul has already connected the Resurrection with this in chapter 4.
but lets make it clear before we go on in the chapter:
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption;
it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory:
it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.
There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy,
we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be
changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet
shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on
immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and
this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying
that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
-This all takes place at the last trump at the coming of Christ. when our
mortal bodies are clothed in immortality changed in the twinkling of an eye.
-What does Paul mean we shall not all sleep and the last trump?
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them
which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,
even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive
and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice
of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them
in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
-So the last Trump is at the second coming of Jesus, and we shall not all sleep
but some will still be alive and remain. Those who sleep are resurrected at this time.
So lets go back to the texts in question:
2Co 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God,
who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are
at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight)
-So through the earnestness of the Spirit they walk by faith not by sight,
in this earthly body and are absent from the Lord. because they are here
on earth and the judgment has not yet come. but:
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body,
and to be present with the Lord.
-They are willing or want to be absent from the body and present with the Lord.
Contextually we have seen this happens at the resurrection not instantly.
Paul does not say or even infer that this is instantaneous at all. He simply says
he would like to be out of this mortal body and to be present with the Lord.
He does not even say that one equals the other but rather he wants to with the Lord.
Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
Notice that he says, "present or absent" we may be accepted of him.
If being absent means He is already with the Lord then
how is it that the absent still hopes to be accepted of him?
Paul is simply saying that they labour in life by faith in this mortal body.
and the works that they do will follow them even in death/absent.
As it is written:
Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write,
Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the
Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ;
that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to
that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Heb_9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die,
but after this the judgment:
Hell A Real Place
I found the word Hell 54 times in 54 verses throughout scripture
KJV Dictionary Definition: HELL, n.
1. The place or state of punishment for the wicked after death. Matt.10:28
2. The place of the dead, or of souls after death; the lower regions, of the grave; called in Hebrew, sheol, and by the Greeks, hades. Ps:16. Jon:2.
(NOTE: English translation = Hell, Greek translation = Hades, Hebrew translation = Sheol. Hell/Hades/Sheol is not the grave, where our physical body are put after death. Hell/Hades/Sheol is where our soul is taken after our body dies)
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
(NOTE: This vs speaks to a place called Tartarus. It isn't Sheol, Hades or hell. It's the place where the angels whose special sin is also referred to in Jude 6 are confined; "to be reserved unto judgment;" the region is described as "pits/chains of darkness,
Jesus mentions Hell 16 times: Matt 5:22, 29, 30, 10:28, 11:23, 16:18, 18:9, 23:15, 33. Mk 9:43, 45, 47. Lk 10:15, Lk 12:5, Lk 16:23 & Rev 1:18
A few other Hell scripture:
Ps 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God
Ps 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, "thou hast led captivity captive": thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them
Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, "he led captivity captive", and gave gifts unto men
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Ps 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption
Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption
Matt 12:40 For as Jonah was 3 days & 3 nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be 3 days & 3 nights in the heart of the earth
(NOTE: Jesus say's he'll be in the heart of the earth for 3 days & 3 nights)
1 Pet 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened (made alive) by the Spirit
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison
(NOTE: Jesus preached to imprisoned spirits. Tartarus see 1 Pet 3: NOTE above).
Gen 35:18 And it came to pass, as Rachel's soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin
(NOTE: As Rachel's soul was "departing" because she had died)
Matt 10:28 Jesus said; fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell
Lk 16:19 (A) There was a certain rich man
20 (A) And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried
(NOTE: Immediately unbelievers that rejected Christ begin reaping the rewards of unrighteousness)
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(NOTE: Being in TORMENTS: Punishment without pity, misery without mercy, crying without compassion)
Lk 23:43 Jesus tells the thief on the cross next to him,Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise
(NOTE: The thief acknowledged Christ & believed. & Jesus promises him paradise)
Matt 27:52-23) That after his resurrection the graves were opened and many bodies of the saints arose. Came out of the graves went into the holy city and were seen by many
NOTE: At His resurrection (Jesus being 1st) many in Abrahams bosom (Paradise side) were removed. Then taken with Jesus to Heaven when He ascended (Mark 16:19)
When Christ ascended up on high (Eph 4:8) he led/took a multitude of believing captives with him (Matt 27:52-53). Scripture immediately adds, that He had previously descended first into the lower parts of the earth i.e. The paradise side of Hell, Hades, Sheol
Isaiah 5:14 (A) Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure
NOTE: When we die our body typically goes into the dirt. The real us soul/spirit departs & is carried to paradise with God or to torment/hell without God. Where we await the grand finale: JUDGMENT
I found the word Hell 54 times in 54 verses throughout scripture
KJV Dictionary Definition: HELL, n.
1. The place or state of punishment for the wicked after death. Matt.10:28
2. The place of the dead, or of souls after death; the lower regions, of the grave; called in Hebrew, sheol, and by the Greeks, hades. Ps:16. Jon:2.
(NOTE: English translation = Hell, Greek translation = Hades, Hebrew translation = Sheol. Hell/Hades/Sheol is not the grave, where our physical body are put after death. Hell/Hades/Sheol is where our soul is taken after our body dies)
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
(NOTE: This vs speaks to a place called Tartarus. It isn't Sheol, Hades or hell. It's the place where the angels whose special sin is also referred to in Jude 6 are confined; "to be reserved unto judgment;" the region is described as "pits/chains of darkness,
Jesus mentions Hell 16 times: Matt 5:22, 29, 30, 10:28, 11:23, 16:18, 18:9, 23:15, 33. Mk 9:43, 45, 47. Lk 10:15, Lk 12:5, Lk 16:23 & Rev 1:18
A few other Hell scripture:
Ps 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God
Ps 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, "thou hast led captivity captive": thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them
Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, "he led captivity captive", and gave gifts unto men
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Ps 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption
Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption
Matt 12:40 For as Jonah was 3 days & 3 nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be 3 days & 3 nights in the heart of the earth
(NOTE: Jesus say's he'll be in the heart of the earth for 3 days & 3 nights)
1 Pet 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened (made alive) by the Spirit
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison
(NOTE: Jesus preached to imprisoned spirits. Tartarus see 1 Pet 3: NOTE above).
Gen 35:18 And it came to pass, as Rachel's soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin
(NOTE: As Rachel's soul was "departing" because she had died)
Matt 10:28 Jesus said; fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell
Lk 16:19 (A) There was a certain rich man
20 (A) And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried
(NOTE: Immediately unbelievers that rejected Christ begin reaping the rewards of unrighteousness)
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(NOTE: Being in TORMENTS: Punishment without pity, misery without mercy, crying without compassion)
Lk 23:43 Jesus tells the thief on the cross next to him,Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise
(NOTE: The thief acknowledged Christ & believed. & Jesus promises him paradise)
Matt 27:52-23) That after his resurrection the graves were opened and many bodies of the saints arose. Came out of the graves went into the holy city and were seen by many
NOTE: At His resurrection (Jesus being 1st) many in Abrahams bosom (Paradise side) were removed. Then taken with Jesus to Heaven when He ascended (Mark 16:19)
When Christ ascended up on high (Eph 4:8) he led/took a multitude of believing captives with him (Matt 27:52-53). Scripture immediately adds, that He had previously descended first into the lower parts of the earth i.e. The paradise side of Hell, Hades, Sheol
Isaiah 5:14 (A) Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure
NOTE: When we die our body typically goes into the dirt. The real us soul/spirit departs & is carried to paradise with God or to torment/hell without God. Where we await the grand finale: JUDGMENT
There are many untruths taught in todays mainstream religions just as the Pharisees created and taught untruths. I know this because Jesus told me so in His Word. The whole religious premise of humans being immortal stems from the myth that we existed as "Life" before we were conceived. This perversion of the Bible is influenced by Buddhism and many other ancient pagan religions. God is Spirit, there is no "separating" our living self from God. There is no forever burning purgatory for humans. If a human get's dropped into a lake of fire reserved for angels, it will kill them. There is no coming back from the 2nd death. There is no praising God in death.
The Rich man story confirms this. This story is about the Great Throne judgment. Abraham and Lazarus had been already resurrected in the 2nd coming of Christ, and have been reigning with Christ for 1000 years. The Rich man didn't know this, didn't know he had been dead for thousands of years and so had his brothers. Of course he didn't know, He was dead!!!! God raised him up at the great throne judgment, as prophesied, and he realized where he was and was in great torments as would we all be in his shoes.
The preaching that he was judged and sent to "hell" at his death and Abraham was sent to heaven at his death doesn't jive with scriptures. One comma from one sentence doesn't erase the rest of scripture regarding His Judgment. The preaching that Abraham was in heaven before Jesus is simply not true according to the Bible.
Abraham had "put on Immortality" as Paul said "must happen". But the Rich man didn't have immortality. He didn't receive this "gift".
If you are already immortal then Jesus doesn't need to come back and give this gift to you. If we are judged and condemned at our death, then there is no need for a Great Throne Judgment.
And if this rich man died today and the funeral was held at any church in this land, the preacher would send him to heaven anyway.
God/Jesus created His Salvation plan which starts with Passover and ends with "The Last Great Day".
1 Tim. 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
Heb. 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
The preaching that Abraham has received the "promise" before us is a false teaching. When Jesus comes back He will "raise" Abraham and give him the "Gift" of immortality. Until then Abraham is dead, like David.
Acts. 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
The story of the rich man shows Abraham was alive, which means Jesus had already came back, given "gifts" to men, and now it is the great throne judgment and the rich man is raised and awaits his fate. I don't know how you can see it any differently.
Hell is an english word and not the original.
There are four words for hell and the translators wrongly used hell in them
Gehenna, was the garbage dump just outside of Jerusalem,
where refuse was burned continually.
Hades, is a greek word for hidden place
Sheol, is a Hebrew word used for the grave
Tartarus, was used by Homer, when describing the subterranean prisons
where the "gods" were imprisoned.
use a bible concordence to find in verses what origanly word used, one deffination.
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So, by combining all these things together, the translators painted a picture
of a subterranean place where fires burned and was unseen by those living
upon the surface of the earth. [which is false]
Forgive me, but the information above is not true. When Lazarus died, he was taken to Abraham's side who was in Sheol/Hades, but in the area of comfort which, according to the scripture, was separated by a great chasm from the place of torment were the rich man was. Both Sheol/Hades is defined as "the unseen place," the present place of departed spirits of the unrighteous.
In Rev.20:13, those who will have been in Sheol/Hades will be resurrected and will stand before God at the great white throne judgment. Anyone's name not found in the book of life will then be cast into the lake of fire. Everyday the unsaved are pouring into Sheol/Hades where, like the rich man, are in torment in flame and will remain there until the final judgment. The great white throne judgment does not take place until after the thousand year reign of Christ. - Rev.20:11-15
Prior to the Lord's resurrection, when the OT saints died their spirits departed and they went down into Sheol/Hades. This is where Abraham, Lazarus and the rest of the OT saints were. When the rich man was speaking to Abraham, they were separated by a chasm, which demonstrates that they were in the same location under the earth. The point of the comma is that, Jesus said to the man next to him, "today you will be with me in paradise." Expositors move the comma placing it before the word "today" in order to take the focus off of Jesus and the thief going to paradise that very day. It was this place of comfort where Abraham and Lazarus were and which is where the spirits of Jesus and the man crucified next to him went to after they died.
Abraham, Lazarus and the rest of the OT saints that were in Sheol/Hades, were in their spirits and had not yet been resurrected. In fact, they have yet to be resurrected in their immortal and glorified bodies, because the resurrection has not yet taken place. There is no judgment at the time of death. If a person dies without Christ, Hades is their immediate destination. Their official judgment won't take place until after millennial period. No one is judged at the time of death.
The above is speaking in reference to king David's body, not his spirit/soul. Peter was referring to Psalms 16:10 which says:
"because you will not abandon me to Sheol, nor will you let your Holy One see decay."
In Acts 2:29, Peter was making known that in writing the above that king David was not speaking of himself, but regarding Christ's resurrection. At the time of death, David's body was buried and decayed, but his spirit went to that place in Sheol where Abraham and Lazarus were.
Pray "Thy kingdom come". Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
The living Christ is coming as “King of kings and Lord of lords” (Revelation 19:11-21),
to put down the rebellion of warring nations (Revelation 17:14), and establish God’s
world-ruling government over all nations (Daniel 2:44; 7:9, 13-14, 18, 22, 27; Isaiah 9:7).
And I will overthrow the throne of kingdoms, and I will destroy the strength of the kingdoms
of the heathen; and I will overthrow the chariots, and those that ride in them; and the horses
and their riders shall come down, every one by the sword of his brother.
A world-ruling administration that will govern the nations upon earth. (Psalms 67:4).
He pictured Himself as the young nobleman going away (to heaven) to be coronated,
and to return to Earth (Luke 19:12-27). He will then be on the Earth—Zechariah 14:3-4,
We learn from The example of the "Wave-sheaf offering"
Leviticus 23 explains all of God’s festivals proclaimed holy convocations,
Beginning verse 9, we find instructions for the wave-sheaf offering.
The Israelites were not allowed to harvest any of the early grain crop until this day.
Then, on the day following the weekly Sabbath, in a solemn ceremony of the
Levitical priesthood,The sheaf was then brought to the priest.
The priest solemnly waved it before the Eternal to be accepted for them.
This event always occurred during the Days of Unleavened Bread.
This pictures the resurrected Christ ascending to heaven to be accepted by
His Father as the very first human to be actually born of God in this fashion.
Pentecost pictures the first part of the spiritual harvest— the calling out of the Church
the called-out ones—which, for the New Testament dispensation, began on Pentecost,
On that day the Holy Spirit came to dwell within flesh, as prophesied by Joel.
On the 50th day (Pentecost) in Old Testament times, two “wave loaves” (Lev 23:17, 20
were brought out of the habitations of the congregation as [the firstfruits unto the Lord].
Just so the New Testament Church was gathered out of this world as the firstfruits
of His salvation, in fulfillment of the meaning of the wave loaves.
And just as the wave sheaf was lifted up into the air and waved, symbolizing Christ’s
trip to heaven and return, so the wave loaves were lifted up and waved, symbolizing
that we too shall for a moment leave this solid Earth when we ascend to meet in the air
before we return with Him to stand on the Mount of Olives as His rule on earth begins.
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As the resurrected Christ ascended to heaven in clouds, so He shall return to Earth
in clouds (Acts 1:9-11; Matthew 24:30). Just as He is returning (1Thes 4:14-17),
the dead in Christ—those who have received and been led by God’s Holy Spirit
(Romans 8:11, 14), will rise in a gigantic resurrection, made immortal—including
all the prophets of old (Luke 13:28). Those who have the Spirit of God, then living,
shall be instantaneously changed from mortal to immortal (1?Corinthians 15:50-54)
and, together with those resurrected, shall rise to meet the descending glorified Christ
(1 Thessalonians 4:17) in the clouds in the air. They shall be with Him, where He is,
forever (John 14:3). They shall—with Him—come down out of the clouds, and stand
with Him, therefore, that very same day, on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4-5).
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me,
to give every man according as his work shall be.
God says our reward, that he brings it with him, not go back to Heaven.
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God is Holy,
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption
we change at his comming, to un-corruptible, untill then we can sin .
a corruptible man or spirit could not be in the Fathers presence [in] heaven now.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption
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Job asks:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of
my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
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Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which
all that are in the graves shall hear his voice
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12And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up
thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
So [David slept] with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.
15As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness:
I shall be satisfied, when I [King David] awake, with [thy likeness].
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David will see[lift up his eyes] when Christ returns, does not see now [thy face till then]
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52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet
shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
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Every person who comes into this world exists forever, whether righteous or wicked. Life and death are both states of existence. The Greek word "apollumi" translated as "destruction" is not defined as annihilation or non-existence, but of complete loss of well being, ruination.
The event of the rich man and Lazarus is a proof of the spirit being conscious and aware after the death of the body, which you and others distort and thereby getting rid of the proof. This event shows both Lazarus and the rich man dying and buried, but their spirits being somewhere else. The rich man was said to be in Hades and Lazarus and Abraham were in a place of comfort. Since these two place were separated by a great chasm, then this would demonstrate that they are in the same location. For Abraham said,
"And besides all this, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that even those who wish cannot cross from here to you, nor can anyone cross from there to us.’
Also, it is not "our" doctrine, but is what scripture teaches. Life and death are both states of conscious existence which is determined by ones state-of-being with God after death, whether reconciled or not reconciled. Those who have been reconciled have everlasting life in the kingdom of God. Those who die unreconciled will suffer the second death, which is conscious existence in separation from God in the lake of fire. There is no annihilation or non-existence. Even Satan and his angels exist forever in the lake of fire. Consider the following:
"And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
The same word "aionios" translated as "eternal" is used for both the wicked and the righteous. The meaning that you give to one has to be the same for the other. Therefore, since we know that eternal life is never ending existence in the presence of the Lord, then eternal punishment would have to be never ending existence in separation from the Lord. You can't have the word "eternal" mean on-going for one and annihilation for the other.
Hello Prove-all,
I agree with all of the above. The term "sleep" always refers to the body and not the spirit. Scripture is clear in that for the righteous at the time of death, the spirit departs and goes to be in the presence of the Lord, as revealed in 2 Cor.5:6 and Phil.1:22-23. In opposition to this, when the unsaved die their spirits depart and go into Sheol/Hades where they will remain until the great white throne judgment - Rev.20:11-15
you use the verse below for half the people, but not the other half
7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was:
and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Everyone has a spirit of man in them, this verse says all go back to God.
Not the good spirit go back to God , and the bad spirit goes elsewhere.
Also nothing says your spirit is alive by itself, after the body dies,
but we have tons of sleeping in the grave verses.
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David said when he awakes, he will see Gods face in righteousness.
If David is with the Lord now, he would already see him,not have to
awake before seeing his righteousness
The raised saints when Christ returns will then see him as he is,
if they are in heaven now, why can they not see him now in heaven.
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When the righteous die, their spirit departs and goes immediately to be in the presence of the Lord:
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"Therefore we are always confident, although we know that while we are at home in the body, we are away from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, then, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. - 2 Cor.5:6-8
"For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. So what shall I choose? I do not know. I am torn between the two. I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better indeed. But it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body."
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Paul makes it clear in the two scriptures above, that to be present in the body is to be absent from the Lord. But to be absent from the body, is to be in the presence of the Lord. Therefore at the time of death for the believer, the spirit departs and goes to be in the presence of the Lord.
In opposition, when the wicked die, their spirits depart from their bodies and go into Sheol/Hades in torment in flame, just as the event of the rich man and Lazarus teaches.
Really? Then how come I have all of this scripture that shows the spirits of people who have died conscious and aware after death?
You have Moses and Elijah meeting and talking with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration. I guess Moses didn't get the memo.
You have Jesus telling the man crucified with him that he would be in paradise with him that very day. How could that be when both died that day?
At the sounding of the 5th trumpet we have souls of saints under the altar, who will have been killed by those on the earth who are protesting to the Lord and are given white robes and told to wait a little while longer. They seem pretty lively to me.
King David is taking about when he is resurrected in his immortal and glorified body. The term "sleep" depending on the context, always refers to the body, not the spirit. When the resurrection takes place, the spirit reenters the body which will be raised immortal and glorified.
Currently, every spirit of those in Christ from the on-set of the church who have died until this present day, are in the Lord's presence waiting for the redemption of their bodies. We the living are waiting for the resurrection, because immediately afterwards we will be changed and caught up with them.
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We both agree about the state of the dead and that at the second coming the saved will be resurrected to be with Jesus, and be both agree that this will be the beginning of the 1000 years.
But we do not agree about where the 1000 years will be.
The reward is Immortal Life with and from Jesus. Joh 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
We will be with Christ. Verse 3 dose not say where that place will be but verse 2 states that Jesus will build us a place in Heaven, "I go to prepare a place" This place most be where the Father is and where Jesus went. Verse 12 "because I go unto my Father."
John seen the saints in Heaven while in vision (Future).
Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
This isn't just Jesus but the Father and Jesus.
After the first resurrection the mortal will become immortal and be able to stand before the throne. 1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Peter wanted to go with Jesus to the mansions in Heaven but Jesus said he had to wait.
Joh 13:36 Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.
So we will follow Jesus to Heaven but not until the Resurrection.
When Jesus comes....
Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
When Jesus comes He everyone will be destroyed (unsaved). Like in the flood and in Lots day.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
When Jesus comes the righteous will be transformed and join Jesus in the air and the wicked will be destroyed.
If the wicked are destroyed than the earth will be desolate of life. A sad place to set up a kingdom.
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
(This is before the 1000 years).
Jer 25:30 Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth.
Jer 25:31 A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD.
Jer 25:32 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.
Jer 25:33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.
Where will Satan be during the 1000 years?
Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
The word bottomless pit is abussos and in the Hebrew that would = abyss. A term that means a place that is desolate, waste, chaotic, and uninhabited.
If God takes the saved to Heaven and the rest of the world is destroyed at His coming this would be exactly the condition of the Earth and if God forces Satan and his evil angels to stay on the Earth for the 1000 years than it would be a jail because he would have nothing to do except reflect on the results of his actions.
After the 1000 years.
Rev 20:3, ...and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished....
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, (he has people to deceive again)
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone,...
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
After the second resurrection (damnation), the devil is able to make havoc for a short time and than they are all cast into the lake of fire which is the second death.
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
When is the new heaven (atmosphere) and Earth recreated?
After the first has past away. This happens when the Earth is cleaned at the second death.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
God can't say this until after the second death.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
I know that Jesus will rule but i don't think He will rule a desolate world full of dead bodies. I know that He will recreate the earth new but that doesn't happen until after the 2nd resurrection and the 1000 years are finished.
We agree that the 2nd resurrection will happen after the 1000 years.
I know the saved will be with Jesus during the 1000 years and from the verses above logic tells me that the new earth will not be created until the 1000 years are finished.
(also remember the Chiastic structure used by the writers of Revelation and much of the Bible, which means it isn't always in sequential order).
you did not address my question from post # 143-44.
the bible says that
David clearly said when he awakes, he will see Gods face in righteousness.
If David is with the Lord now, he would already see him there,
he would not have to awake before seeing his righteousness, why?
The raised saints when Christ returns will then see him as he is,
if they are in heaven now, why can they not see him now in heaven?
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No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son,
who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light,
whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power.
No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another,
God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us.
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to say a man is in heaven now with god the father,
would conflict with these bible verses.
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Rev 22:12 says the Lord comes and will bring our rewards with him.
I covered " absent from the body" on posts 143 and 144
Moses and Elijah, this was in a vision, a future vision.
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Then the dust will return to the earth as it was,
And the spirit will return to God who gave it.
This verse says [all spirits in man] go back to God sometime after death.
not one go here the others go there.