NEW PRETRIB RAPTURE EVIDENCE!!!

[Bladerunner]

The child will die accursed at 100 if I remember right......

I read this; as a Child ( the body would be in the physical condition of a child.) even though many could be far older than that. Rem, they did come out of the Daniel's 70th week and are at least seven years older then they were when the Tribulations started. Add this to 100 and you would get their age. Of course for those who are born during the Millennium, the 100 will be their actual ages.

The 100 appears to be a marker where when that amount of time has passed, you have to make that decision you speak of..

 

[heartofdavid]

There will also be the great tribulation saints who make it through alive and will enter into the millennial period. Otherwise, there could be no sheep and goat judgment, which are Gentiles. And how would you explain the following:

"He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore."

There will be both Jew and Gentiles in their mortal bodies who will repopulate the earth during the millennial period. Those of the church and the great tribulation saints, will be ruling with Christ in our immortal and glorified bodies during the millennial period.

All that takes care of itself
The jews get protected,as it is written.
It says all take the mark.
So those facts are stated.
I am not saying it the word is.
So you need to say " even though it says that...."

 

[heartofdavid]

The population of the millineum. Who will be there.?
Start a thread ?
Ok,i will

 

[heartofdavid]

Take a fresh look at these verses;

Rev 7;9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

Now we know from 1 thes 4 that the dead rise FIRST.

That means these innumerable one HAD TO ARRIVE AFTER THE RAPTURE.
What a heavy revvie. LOL

BTW, These martyrs in heaven refute the idea of a resurrection at rev 20 at the end of the gt.
Besides that the martyrs are told to stay under the altar until their number is complete.
In rev 7 they are not under the altar,indicating their number is complete.
Therefore a resurrection of martyrs at the end of the gt is not likely

 

[Ahwatukee]

BTW, These martyrs in heaven refute the idea of a resurrection at rev 20 at the end of the gt.
Besides that the martyrs are told to stay under the altar until their number is complete.
In rev 7 they are not under the altar,indicating their number is complete.
Therefore a resurrection of martyrs at the end of the gt is not likely

The martyrs under the altar are those saints who are killed during the first 3 1/2 years. There bothers and fellow servants are the great tribulation saints who are killed during the last 3 1/2 years. There number is not complete until Jesus returns to end the age.

It doesn't matter whether you conclude that it is unlikely or not, because it says there is a resurrection. Therefore, "not likely" is out the window. You have John seeing those who were beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and the word of God and who will not have worshiped the beast, his image nor received his mark. Then he says "they lived." If your beheaded you're dead, therefore when he says "they lived" it infers that they will have been resurrected, which is also supported by the fact that after that it states that "the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended, which support the previous group as coming to life, i.e. resurrected.

And as I continue to point out, where are those nations and people coming from mentioned as being in the millennial period if all of the great tribulation saints are killed during the tribulation? This is all scriptural process of elimination heartofdavid.

BTW, These martyrs in heaven refute the idea of a resurrection at rev 20 at the end of the gt.

The error that you are making is that, John is seeing a vision of the great tribulation saints pre great tribulation. He's seeing a vision of Gentiles who will be killed during the great tribulation, which from the time frame of the vision hasn't started yet.

 

[dcontroversal]

The gathering of the church prior to the outpouring of God's wrath, is God's promise to us, not a false teaching. Paul refers to it as the "Blessed Hope" and after giving a detailed account of that event he says for us to comfort each other with this hope. If the church were to go through God's wrath and be gathered when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, it would be no blessed hope, nor could we comfort one another with those words. For regarding this time Jesus said that if those days had not been shorten, not one would be left alive.

As far as your mention "works for salvation" I would agree with you in that, scripture is clear in that we are saved by grace through faith and not by our own selves. It is the gift of God, not by works.


Regarding eternal security, faith is required from beginning to end. I could cite a number of scriptures, but I'm sure that it would fall on deaf ears. But I'll leave you with this one:


"Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel

Faith is required from beginning to end, which is our connection to God's grace.

And the problem with this view.....it places the work on us and not Christ and to suggest it flat denies the following truth...

He (JESUS) is the beginner and FINISHER of our faith.

HE (JESUS) that began a good work of faith in you WILL COMPLETE IT.

To say we can walk away and lose salvation based upon our upkeep of faith in my mind makes the above truth false. It states clearly that JESUS cannot FINISH what he started which makes him into a weak, inept liar and also EMPOWERS us above and beyond the power of Christ.

Either JESUS finishes the work of faith he began in US or the above verse is not correct in stating that he WILL finish what he started.....

Just saying and not mouthing.....everyone can believe what they want to believe.....

 

[heartofdavid]

The martyrs under the altar are those saints who are killed during the first 3 1/2 years. There bothers and fellow servants are the great tribulation saints who are killed during the last 3 1/2 years. There number is not complete until Jesus returns to end the age.

It doesn't matter whether you conclude that it is unlikely or not, because it says there is a resurrection. Therefore, "not likely" is out the window. You have John seeing those who were beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and the word of God and who will not have worshiped the beast, his image nor received his mark. Then he says "they lived." If your beheaded you're dead, therefore when he says "they lived" it infers that they will have been resurrected, which is also supported by the fact that after that it states that "the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended, which support the previous group as coming to life, i.e. resurrected.

And as I continue to point out, where are those nations and people coming from mentioned as being in the millennial period if all of the great tribulation saints are killed during the tribulation? This is all scriptural process of elimination heartofdavid.



The error that you are making is that, John is seeing a vision of the great tribulation saints pre great tribulation. He's seeing a vision of Gentiles who will be killed during the great tribulation, which from the time frame of the vision hasn't started yet.

It appears you are trying to tie in the innumerable number to a resurrection after the gt
The innumerable number is not resurrected after the GT.

The point i am making is ,if the martyrs are not allowed from under the throne until their number is complete,and the innumerable number is out of that facility,then the number is complete.

I dont honestly see a resurrection after the gt.

What say you?

 

[Deade]

heartofdavid, how can you not see this resurrection way after the GT:
Rev. 20:1-5: “And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, which is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and cast him into the abyss, and shut it, and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years should be finished: after this he must be loosed for a little time. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years. The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection.” After the 1000 year reign will be the biggest resurrection of all.

 

[preston39]

And the problem with this view.....it places the work on us and not Christ and to suggest it flat denies the following truth...

He (JESUS) is the beginner and FINISHER of our faith.

HE (JESUS) that began a good work of faith in you WILL COMPLETE IT.

To say we can walk away and lose salvation based upon our upkeep of faith in my mind makes the above truth false. It states clearly that JESUS cannot FINISH what he started which makes him into a weak, inept liar and also EMPOWERS us above and beyond the power of Christ.

Either JESUS finishes the work of faith he began in US or the above verse is not correct in stating that he WILL finish what he started.....

Just saying and not mouthing.....everyone can believe what they want to believe.....

d...,

You must be a liberal....can't you see how you are spinning that language to justify your thinking.

G-d does not purport to make us do anything. He provides the opportunity but, allows us to apply free will thinking.

The problem with your view is..you are not following.... The Bible. A....is.

 

[Bladerunner]

And the problem with this view.....it places the work on us and not Christ and to suggest it flat denies the following truth...

He (JESUS) is the beginner and FINISHER of our faith.

HE (JESUS) that began a good work of faith in you WILL COMPLETE IT.

To say we can walk away and lose salvation based upon our upkeep of faith in my mind makes the above truth false. It states clearly that JESUS cannot FINISH what he started which makes him into a weak, inept liar and also EMPOWERS us above and beyond the power of Christ.

Either JESUS finishes the work of faith he began in US or the above verse is not correct in stating that he WILL finish what he started.....

Just saying and not mouthing.....everyone can believe what they want to believe.....

One other possibility,,,,, one never was saved! God knows his elect are as they are pre-known to HIM and Called by him first.

 

[Bladerunner]

It appears you are trying to tie in the innumerable number to a resurrection after the gt
The innumerable number is not resurrected after the GT.

The point i am making is ,if the martyrs are not allowed from under the throne until their number is complete,and the innumerable number is out of that facility,then the number is complete.

I dont honestly see a resurrection after the gt.

What say you?

John does not say their number is incomplete. Rem, there are at least two may three types of tribulation saints. Read the text real slow and you will see it.

 

[dcontroversal]

d...,

You must be a liberal....can't you see how you are spinning that language to justify your thinking.

G-d does not purport to make us do anything. He provides the opportunity but, allows us to apply free will thinking.

The problem with your view is..you are not following.... The Bible. A....is.

A. You don't know what your talking about
B. As far from a liberal as one can be
C. The language is clear regardless of your ability to accept it

I understand begins, finishes and complete just fine......maybe you should look the words up and then apply the definitions to what JESUS does concerning faith....

a. BEGINS the work of faith in us
b. Finishes the work of faith IN US
c. COMPLETES what HE started

maybe your JESUS needs your help...mine keeps his word and does not FAIL......and HE WILL LOSE NOTHINg

 

[Rondonmon]

Take a fresh look at these verses;

Rev 7;9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

Now we know from 1 thes 4 that the dead rise FIRST.

That means these innumerable one HAD TO ARRIVE AFTER THE RAPTURE.
What a heavy revvie. LOL

Hello heartofdavid, you meant well but I agree with these post tribbers, you conflated the issue where it might favor them, even though it can't be true because there is a pre trib Rapture. So where does this confusion come in, because this passage you cited confuses many and many people think it proves a mid trip rapture.

Now allow me to explain the error that might near everyone, including me for 30 years, makes here. We allow the vocabulary of God to be shrunk here to fit only one preconceived notion as pertaining to the words GREAT TRIBULATION. Just because Jesus stated there would be troubles seen like never before or ever again, we have mandated that Johns GREAT TRIBULATION mention be only and END TIME EVENT, but that is technically not the case, nor is it factual.

1.) Jesus told us we would have TRIBULATION in this world (FACT).
2.) John said in Rev. 1:9 I am your brother in TRIBULATION (FACT).
3.) Millions of Christians have died, including most of the Disciples. Via Islam, via Romans, via the World in general. (FACT)

Thus, looking at Johns words now in a NEW LIGHT, what did John really mean? I think the GREAT TRIBULATION John is referring to was the 2000 year Church Age. We have pigeonholed God into it having to mean an end time event just because Jesus said these would be the greatest troubles ever. Can' both be right? The 2000 year Church Age is GREATER than the 7 Years of Jacobs Troubles. as in 2000>7. The Greatest Troubles ever will still be happening during this final 7 year period, so yes both can be true and are true. The Church came of of the Great Tribulation period or the 2000 year Church Age period where many Christians will have died to bring the world the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Now go back and read it again, everything fits, they came from many nations because it is the Raptured Church in Revelation 7:9.

Those Beheaded under the Alter in the 5th Seal are told they must wait. WAIT FOR WHAT? Of course until their fellow brethren must who must die also like them, which means they must wait until the 42 month reign of the Anti-Christ/BEAST runs its full course. They are the Beheaded judged in Rev. 20:4 who did not take the Mark of the Beast. They reign/serve with Christ 1000 years. Thus you are right, those are the Raptured Church in Rev. 7:9, your road map was just kinda off a little, you went over a mountain pass to get there when there was a tunnel through the mountain. Its all good.

 

[heartofdavid]

heartofdavid, how can you not see this resurrection way after the GT:
Rev. 20:1-5: “And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, which is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and cast him into the abyss, and shut it, and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years should be finished: after this he must be loosed for a little time. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years. The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection.” After the 1000 year reign will be the biggest resurrection of all.

As far as i can tell, if i read that from your position, "they lived" and " this is the first resurrection" is what you are using to make the claim of a resurrection after the gt.
Am i correct?

 

[heartofdavid]

Are the innumerable number and the dead in christ of 1thes4 the first resurrection?

 

[heartofdavid]

Hello heartofdavid, you meant well but I agree with these post tribbers, you conflated the issue where it might favor them, even though it can't be true because there is a pre trib Rapture. So where does this confusion come in, because this passage you cited confuses many and many people think it proves a mid trip rapture.

Now allow me to explain the error that might near everyone, including me for 30 years, makes here. We allow the vocabulary of God to be shrunk here to fit only one preconceived notion as pertaining to the words GREAT TRIBULATION. Just because Jesus stated there would be troubles seen like never before or ever again, we have mandated that Johns GREAT TRIBULATION mention be only and END TIME EVENT, but that is technically not the case, nor is it factual.

1.) Jesus told us we would have TRIBULATION in this world (FACT).
2.) John said in Rev. 1:9 I am your brother in TRIBULATION (FACT).
3.) Millions of Christians have died, including most of the Disciples. Via Islam, via Romans, via the World in general. (FACT)

Thus, looking at Johns words now in a NEW LIGHT, what did John really mean? I think the GREAT TRIBULATION John is referring to was the 2000 year Church Age. We have pigeonholed God into it having to mean an end time event just because Jesus said these would be the greatest troubles ever. Can' both be right? The 2000 year Church Age is GREATER than the 7 Years of Jacobs Troubles. as in 2000>7. The Greatest Troubles ever will still be happening during this final 7 year period, so yes both can be true and are true. The Church came of of the Great Tribulation period or the 2000 year Church Age period where many Christians will have died to bring the world the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Now go back and read it again, everything fits, they came from many nations because it is the Raptured Church in Revelation 7:9.

Those Beheaded under the Alter in the 5th Seal are told they must wait. WAIT FOR WHAT? Of course until their fellow brethren must who must die also like them, which means they must wait until the 42 month reign of the Anti-Christ/BEAST runs its full course. They are the Beheaded judged in Rev. 20:4 who did not take the Mark of the Beast. They reign/serve with Christ 1000 years. Thus you are right, those are the Raptured Church in Rev. 7:9, your road map was just kinda off a little, you went over a mountain pass to get there when there was a tunnel through the mountain. Its all good.

Doesn't fit.
The ancient martyrs are 1thes4.
The innumerable number are the foolish virgins left behind of mat 25

Remember they had to wash their robes.
( unworthyness of not included in the rapture)

 

[heartofdavid]

Also,every single attribute ascribed to the martyrs of rev 20 fits the innumerable number of rev 7 .

John is only describing what they become and their fitment in the kingdom. Not describing a post gt resurrection

 

[heartofdavid]

The big problem for you guys is " number of martyrs completed"
If you ascribe a second resurrection after the gt,the innumerable number should have never been allowed out from under the altar

 

[Rondonmon]

Doesn't fit.
The ancient martyrs are 1thes4.
The innumerable number are the foolish virgins left behind of mat 25

Remember they had to wash their robes.
( unworthyness of not included in the rapture)

Where does it say they are Martyrs in Rev. chapter 7?

The Martyrs are UNDER THE Alter in Seal #5.

The point is the Saints with White Robes mentioned in Rev. 7:9 came out of the Great Tribulation (2000 Year Church age Period) but that of course doesn't mean they were all Martyrs some were, most were of course not murdered.

Those mentioned in Rev ch 6 under the Alter are indeed Tribulation Saints who are Martyred, but they are not raised until the Beat rule comes to pass. They washed their Robes in the Blood of the Lamb (before the were Raptured) that is you and I as we speak. Did you not wash your robe in the Blood of the Lamb? We all did.

These are the Raptured, not those in the Tribulation.

The Church is seen in Rev. 4, 5, 7 and 19.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Greetings Rondonmon and welcome back,

Where does it say they are Martyrs in Rev. chapter 7?

John's vision of those in white robes which no man can count who are referred to as the "Great tribulation saints," are the same group mentioned in Rev.20:4-6 who will have been beheaded (martyred) because of their testimony of Jesus and the word of God and because they would not worship the beast, his image nor receive his mark.

"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

The Martyrs are UNDER THE Alter in Seal #5.

The Martyrs under the altar at the fifth seal, are those who will have been killed during the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period, with the great tribulation saints as being there brothers and fellow servants who are killed as they will have been during the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year.

The point is the Saints with White Robes mentioned in Rev. 7:9 came out of the Great Tribulation (2000 Year Church age Period) but that of course doesn't mean they were all Martyrs some were, most were of course not murdered.

The great tribulation period does not span the entire church period, but was identified by Jesus as beginning from the setting up of the abomination in Matt.24:15, which according to Dan.9:27, takes place from the middle of that last seven years and continues through the entire last 3 1/2 years. In further support that the great tribulation is not referring to the entire church period, Jesus said that it would be a time of great tribulation unequaled from the beginning of the world until now and never to be equaled again and that if that time was allowed to go on any longer on one would be left alive. Therefore, the great tribulation only refers to that last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period, which the church will not experience because we are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, which is what the entire tribulation period is.

The Church is seen in Rev. 4, 5, 7 and 19

The word "Ekklesia" translated "church" is used 18 times throughout chapters 1 thru 3. In those same chapters the word "Hagios" translated as "Saints" is not used in reference to the church. Likewise, after chapter 4 onward, only the word Hagios/Saints is used and the word "Church" is never seen again. The next time the we see the church is in Revelation 19:6-8 referred to as the bride where she is receives her fine linen at the wedding of the Lamb which takes place in heaven. The next time the word church is actually used is found in Revelation 22:16, which is outside of the narrative of God's wrath.

By the way, Revelation 4:1 is a prophetic allusion to the church being gathered, which is why you don't see the word "church" any more from that time forward.