Not By Works
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I see you totally avoided the question......here one more time and see if you can answer for all to see.....rather simple at the end of the end of the day....bolded below??
Originally Posted by dcontroversal
I said Catholic dogma<---a works based vanilla café blend gospel.....do you believe works are part of the equation for salvation...to gain or keep it?
I said Catholic dogma<---a works based vanilla café blend gospel.....do you believe works are part of the equation for salvation...to gain or keep it?
We are JUSTIFIED through Faith and this is not by our own works (eph 2:8-9)
We do not SAVE ourselves but God puts the believer in His body to do His WORKS of salvation.
Philippians 2:22 But you know that Timothy has proved himself, because as a son with his father he has served with me in the WORK OF THE GOSPEL
Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the GOSPEL OF YOUR SALVATION. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
It is the BODY OF CHRIST, the Church, whom He will save and not a personal salvation.( ephesians 5:23)
God the Father is the HEAD of Jesus which means that He is the BODY of the Father.( 1 corinthians 11:3 ) and He did the will of the Father here on earth.( matthew 6:10, 7:21, 12:50 )
John 4:34-38 “My food,” said Jesus, “is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work. Do you not say, ‘Four months more and then the harvest’? I tell you, open your eyes and look at the fields! They are ripe for harvest. Even now the reaper draws his wages, even now he harvests the crop for eternal life, so that the sower and the reaper may be glad together. Thus the saying ‘One sows and another reaps’ is true. I sent you to reap what you have not worked for. Others have done the hard work, and you have reaped the benefits of their labor.”
John 14:31 but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me. “Come now; let us leave.
Since we are the body of Christ whom He will save, we are to do His will just as He has done the will of the Father.
John 14:12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.( john 16:10 )
If after being JUSTIFIED being made a member/part of His body, we deliberately sin( hebrews 10:26 ), disobey His commands ( ephesians 5:6, titus 1:16 )and do not continue in His kindness, we will be cut off from Him,( rom 11:22 )
Matthew 25:26-30 “His master replied, ‘You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest. “‘Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents. For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Matthew 25:41-46 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ “He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
1 Corinthians 13:1-13 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
Love is a work that we must do to be saved.
Love is a work that you WILL do if you are truly saved. Jesus said I am the shepherd, and my sheep know my voice. If you are truly saved in Christ Jesus, your works will bear out. A good tree (saved in Christ) cannot give bad fruit, and a bad tree (lost) cannot give good fruit (works of Christ). 1 Cor. 13:13, "And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity."
Matthew 25:40-46 “The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’ “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ “He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Amen bro.
New International Version 1984 John 9:3-5 “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life. As long as it is day, WE "MUST" DO THE WORK OF HIM WHO SENT ME. Night is coming, when no one can work. While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”
New International Version 1984 John 9:3-5 “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life. As long as it is day, WE "MUST" DO THE WORK OF HIM WHO SENT ME. Night is coming, when no one can work. While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”
That had to be your dumbest response yet. You didn't even address the two natures at all, you just regurgitated your usual talking points.
And you basically condemned Paul as not being saved, because he says he is DOING (not did) those evil things he doesn't want to do! He said he KEEPS DOING THEM because of the sin LIVING (not dead) in him!
John says we won't sin, nor can we. Paul said he keeps doing evil.
One person = two natures.
Like I said before - you're not even a challenge anymore.
And you basically condemned Paul as not being saved, because he says he is DOING (not did) those evil things he doesn't want to do! He said he KEEPS DOING THEM because of the sin LIVING (not dead) in him!
John says we won't sin, nor can we. Paul said he keeps doing evil.
One person = two natures.
Like I said before - you're not even a challenge anymore.
- Caught up in circles.
I don’t know which way to turn.
My heart rules;
Had my head fooled.
Too late, I’ve fallen in love.
- 2. To do what’s right
Is a constant fight.
Don’t want to let my heart decide.
I want God’s Word to be my guide.
- 3. It’s so hard to break free.
This desp’rate heart inside of me
Makes wrong feel right and right feel wrong,
But Jehovah makes me strong.
(CHORUS)
He says: “Know that I love you. I don’t want to lose you.
Trust in me in all you do.
I’ll be here to help you through.”
- 4. Our life is shaped by the choice we make.
We have to realize what’s at stake.
Right from the start, it’s a war for our heart,
But it’s ours to give away.
To safeguard it means our life.
- 5. Looking back, the choice I made
To do things Jehovah’s way
Seemed so hard, emotion’s strong,
But Jehovah helped me along.
It never ceases to amaze me how such a sinner as yourself can condemn others.
I sin a thousand times = I'm a sinner.
You sin even once = you're a sinner.
The quantity doesn't matter if even a single sin is attributed to you or to me.
One would damn both of us.
So stop being a self-righteous hypocrite.
Ralph, we all live in these sins, if you have committed one sin, you have committed them all. James 2:10," For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."
I am a sinner, I know I am, and I ask the Lord to forgive me where I fail him each and every day, because I feel we all let Him down to a degree each day, but we should still strive to serve Him
You are talking two different frames of reference
1. Perfection or falleness, incapable of righteousness at any point.
2. A sinner washed clean, who may occasionally fail.
Another frame of reference
1. Faith brings permanent change of spiritual realilty
2. Faith is communion with Christ, losing loses everything
Works, the fruit of a life
1. A consequence of faith but not important
2. The shinning of the reality of Christ in ones heart
Each have their reasons for believing they way they do.
A zombie analogy is the logical consequence of rebellion against God but being forced
into the Kingdom because of a spiritual transaction in ones past.
The problem of the consequences of seeing one cannot hold a zombie theology, one has
to accept we are what we are, good trees or bad trees. The fruit of our lives determines
whether it has worked out. If one accepts all is driven by God, then there is no fear,
except if He specifically gives us choice and responsibility to act. As Peter says,
Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God.
1 Peter 2:16
We can choose, which we are called to live as servants of God.
But it appears for some this would be hypocritical, we should in their minds live as sinners.
1. Perfection or falleness, incapable of righteousness at any point.
2. A sinner washed clean, who may occasionally fail.
Another frame of reference
1. Faith brings permanent change of spiritual realilty
2. Faith is communion with Christ, losing loses everything
Works, the fruit of a life
1. A consequence of faith but not important
2. The shinning of the reality of Christ in ones heart
Each have their reasons for believing they way they do.
A zombie analogy is the logical consequence of rebellion against God but being forced
into the Kingdom because of a spiritual transaction in ones past.
The problem of the consequences of seeing one cannot hold a zombie theology, one has
to accept we are what we are, good trees or bad trees. The fruit of our lives determines
whether it has worked out. If one accepts all is driven by God, then there is no fear,
except if He specifically gives us choice and responsibility to act. As Peter says,
Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God.
1 Peter 2:16
We can choose, which we are called to live as servants of God.
But it appears for some this would be hypocritical, we should in their minds live as sinners.
Is God sarcastic?
It amazes me when people hold that God is and was sarcastic.
If you understand sarcasm, it is putting up an idea, exaggerated to create a point.
Which ones are exaggerated? Love each other as I have loved you. Love your neighbor,
love your enemies, love God with your heart, soul, mind and strength.
So what exactly is left of Jesus's work that was not sarcastic. Nothing.
So taking this view, the promises are sarcastic too, along with the aspirations.
There is no actual end point, because it is calling a lie to anything that was said.
So when Jesus says let your "yes" be "yes" and your "no" be "no", he actually means
everything He is saying is true, not sarcastic. Bit of a problem, if sinful evil behaviour
dooms one to Hell, and taking as a joke Jesus's words condemns you in eternity.
Evil doers is quite a simple idea, people who do evil. Rather than aspiring to righteousness
what is being shared is to try and pull others down as failures, rather than encourage victory
and overcoming. So the exact opposite of the apostles ministry.
May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope, encourage your hearts and strengthen you in every good deed and word
2 Thess 2:16-17
It amazes me when people hold that God is and was sarcastic.
If you understand sarcasm, it is putting up an idea, exaggerated to create a point.
Which ones are exaggerated? Love each other as I have loved you. Love your neighbor,
love your enemies, love God with your heart, soul, mind and strength.
So what exactly is left of Jesus's work that was not sarcastic. Nothing.
So taking this view, the promises are sarcastic too, along with the aspirations.
There is no actual end point, because it is calling a lie to anything that was said.
So when Jesus says let your "yes" be "yes" and your "no" be "no", he actually means
everything He is saying is true, not sarcastic. Bit of a problem, if sinful evil behaviour
dooms one to Hell, and taking as a joke Jesus's words condemns you in eternity.
Evil doers is quite a simple idea, people who do evil. Rather than aspiring to righteousness
what is being shared is to try and pull others down as failures, rather than encourage victory
and overcoming. So the exact opposite of the apostles ministry.
May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope, encourage your hearts and strengthen you in every good deed and word
2 Thess 2:16-17
OH YES! I just do not prefer to use the Term RAPTURE, because so many false prophets have perverted the Term, so I do not want to be Identified with them, like Harold Camping. Instead, I prefer to us the term "Calling Out of the Bride" to go to the Wedding of the Lamb, which is exactly what it is. And my understanding of the Calling of the Bride, Mat. 10:1-13, will happen some time before this happens:
Daniel 9:27 (HCSB) 27 He will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering. And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator.”
2 Thessalonians 2:4 (NKJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
That is when the Antichrist, goes in the TEMPLE and demands to be worshiped as god.
I believe the Calling Out of the Bride will happen before the Two Witnesses of Rev. arrive on the scene, because they are predominantly here to convert ISRAEL, in Rev. 11, AND even before these VERSES.
Revelation 6:16-17 (ESV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb,
[SUP]17 [/SUP] for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”
Revelation 3:10 (HCSB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Because you have kept My command to endure, I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is going to come over the whole world to test those who live on the earth.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Here is my study on it, I will carry out this discussion on there: http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/95283-calling-out-bride-go-wedding-lamb.html OR http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/155526-third-temple-news.html
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R
It's not about quantity. It's about if you are still LIVING IN sin like an unbeliever.
Paul said it plainly...
"those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God"-Galatians 5:21
This means one of three things.
1. Every single person alive is not going to inherit the kingdom because every single person 'lives like this'.
2. Grace is a license to sin that makes it so that those who believe can 'live like this' but still enter the kingdom.
3. Believers have the Holy Spirit in salvation and because of that they no longer 'live like this' but are being conformed to the image of Christ.
So which one are you going to go with? We know the gospel is true and that there will be those who will inherit the kingdom, so #1 is out. And you have said grace is not a license to sin, so #2 is out. That leaves #3, Budman, but I'm guessing you're going to try to wiggle out of it in order to rationalize living in sin and being no different than unsaved people.
The hypocrite is the person who really isn't what he says he is. Like an actor on a stage. I would be a hypocrite if I believed and lived out YOUR doctrine that claims there is no difference between the saved and the unsaved when it comes to sinning. YOU believe that, not me. That makes YOU the hypocrite, not me. YOU are the one who says you are no different than the unbeliever. YOU are the hypocrite.
Paul said it plainly...
"those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God"-Galatians 5:21
This means one of three things.
1. Every single person alive is not going to inherit the kingdom because every single person 'lives like this'.
2. Grace is a license to sin that makes it so that those who believe can 'live like this' but still enter the kingdom.
3. Believers have the Holy Spirit in salvation and because of that they no longer 'live like this' but are being conformed to the image of Christ.
So which one are you going to go with? We know the gospel is true and that there will be those who will inherit the kingdom, so #1 is out. And you have said grace is not a license to sin, so #2 is out. That leaves #3, Budman, but I'm guessing you're going to try to wiggle out of it in order to rationalize living in sin and being no different than unsaved people.
The hypocrite is the person who really isn't what he says he is. Like an actor on a stage. I would be a hypocrite if I believed and lived out YOUR doctrine that claims there is no difference between the saved and the unsaved when it comes to sinning. YOU believe that, not me. That makes YOU the hypocrite, not me. YOU are the one who says you are no different than the unbeliever. YOU are the hypocrite.
R
Then you will not enter the kingdom of God.
And if you say God's grace makes it so we can live in these sins and still enter into the kingdom of God you make the grace of God a license to sin, which it is not.
The grace of God is your license to NOT live in these sins anymore. That's why how you act shows if you have the grace of God in salvation or not.
And if you say God's grace makes it so we can live in these sins and still enter into the kingdom of God you make the grace of God a license to sin, which it is not.
The grace of God is your license to NOT live in these sins anymore. That's why how you act shows if you have the grace of God in salvation or not.
R
Every Christian still has the flesh. The difference between believers and unbelievers is believers don't live in the flesh anymore. If they did they would be showing themselves to not be believers.
The putting off of the deeds of the flesh in spiritual circumcision is the sign of the believer who is in covenant with God through Christ. Their circumcision being the evidence of their covenant relationship with God. The uncircumcised person who has not put off the deeds of the flesh shows that he is NOT in covenant with God through Christ. Their uncircumcision being the evidence that they are NOT in covenant relationship with God.
Spiritually uncircumcised people will NOT enter the kingdom of God. Their lives show if they are circumcised or not.
The putting off of the deeds of the flesh in spiritual circumcision is the sign of the believer who is in covenant with God through Christ. Their circumcision being the evidence of their covenant relationship with God. The uncircumcised person who has not put off the deeds of the flesh shows that he is NOT in covenant with God through Christ. Their uncircumcision being the evidence that they are NOT in covenant relationship with God.
Spiritually uncircumcised people will NOT enter the kingdom of God. Their lives show if they are circumcised or not.
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