Do you believe Jesus is God?

[Israel]

Genesis 2: 24 For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife ; and they shall become one flesh. [/COLOR]

God says that when we marry, we become one, even though we are separate entities. This concept of oneness is one in purpose, being, and love. In the same way, the Trinity is a perfect union of three entities, whose essence is one.

This is a difficult concept, and I am not saying that I understand it fully. We are finite human beings, and we can never understand the infinite ways of God. But the bible is clear that there are three separate entities that constitute one God.

The fact that we do not understand this concept fully, does not change the fact of it's existence.

Isn't the job of the Holy Spirit is to bring all things to remembrance? I understand the concept of marriage but that does not answer the question. How are there two spirit beings in a triune God?

Is not the Holy Spirit the Spirit of Truth? Now the question is what is truth?

John 6:63

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Jesus is the way, truth and life. He spoke nothing but truth or that spirit of truth which is life.

John 16:13-15

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

The one who comes spoke only what he heard. Did he not hear the truth, which is the spirit that gives life? This spirit will gloriy Jesus by proclaiming the truth of the gospel. who did that?

Revelation 14:6-11

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

7Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
8And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

His messengers delivered to us that Spirit of truth that they heard from heaven. Angels of the Lord. This is why Jesus had to go away. In the flesh, He could not proclaim the message to the world.

Revelation 22:16

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

 

[ed]

"It is a heresy to affirm that there is an ontological subordination of one member of the Trinity to another, since they are identical in essence. His submission to the Father was not just for time, but will be for all eternity."

It's exactly as I said Ed. The three persons of God (God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit) equally share God's essence but fulfill different roles. This is so simple even a child can understand it and exactly what scripture teaches.

"Knowledge, righteousness and holiness. Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden possessed these latter qualities before their fall into sin."

Innocence does not equate to dumb Ed. Not only were Adam and Eve innocent (without evil), they were morally virtuous by virtue of their created state, for God endowed them with moral perfection. The perfect condition of the original state of creation is derived from the nature of God as an absolutely perfect Being. The argument goes as follows:

(1) God is an absolutely perfect Being.
(2) An absolutely perfect Being cannot produce an imperfect creation.​

(3) Therefore, the original creation God made was perfect.

Again, Innocence does not equate to dumb.

"At university you would study the entire Bible systematically and walk away with a deep understanding."

I was pointing out the obvious. Build a firm foundation on sound doctrine.

The pattern of understanding I am teaching is mainstream and authentic Old and New Testament scripture exactly rooted in an accurate recounting of Jesus's teachings, Apostolic teaching and tradition, and the early church. It's not based on a cult's heresy, wishful thinking, or made up nonsense.

Each individual member of the Trinity is a person, since each is referred to as a person (I, Who) in scripture. Each has all the basic elements or powers of personhood: mind, will, and feeling.

The Father is a Person:

In addition to being referred to as a person ("He"), the three elements of personhood all are attributed to God the Father. He has the power of intelbct to know (Matt. 6:32): "Your heavenly Father knows that you need them"; the emotional faculty to feel (Gen. 66): "The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain"; and the power of will to choose (Matt. 6:9-10): "Our Father in heaven... your will be done on earth as it is in heaven." In addition, personal traits, such as the ability to communicate (Matt. 11:25) and teach (John 7:16-17), are also attributed to the Father.

The Son is a Person:

In addition to being referred to as a person ("He"), the Son can cornmunicate and teach (John 7:17) as only persons can do. Further, He too has intellect (John 2:25): "He did not need man's testimony about man, for he knew what was in a man"; feeling (John 11:35): "Jesus wept"; and will (John 6:38) : "For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me." The personal pronoun "He" is used consistently of the Son.

The Holy Spirit is a Person:

All the elements of personhood are attributed to the Holy Spirit in Scripture. He has a mind (John 1426): "But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you. He has will (1 Cor. 12:ll): "All these are the work of one and the same spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines"; and He has feeling (Eph 4:30): "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."Further, personal pronouns ("He" and "His") are attributed to the Holy Spirit: "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come" (John 16:13, emphasis added).

Finally, the activities of a person are ascribed to the Holy Spirit: He searches, knows, speaks, testifies, reveals, convinces, commands, strives, moves, helps, guides, creates, recreates, sanctifies, inspires, intercedes, orders the affairs of the church, and performs miracles (see Strong, ST, 325). There are numerous verses of Scripture to support these activities (see Gen. 6; Luke 12:12; John 3:8; 16:7-8; Acts 8:29; Rom. 8:26; 1 Cor.2:11; Eph. 4:30; 2 Peter 1:21, etc.).

Leave the bondage, the legalism, the heresy, the wishful thinking, and the nonsense and enter into grace and truth. That's the calling Jesus (sharing the essence of God equally with God the father and God the Holy Spirit but fulfilling the role effector of our salvation) places on each of us. I have already done so.

I have watched you struggle with who and what God is here teaching a doctrine that looks like Jehovah Witness heresy to me and am trying to help you understand this topic for your good. God loves you very much and wants you to know Him as He is: in His Triune perfection and glory not deceived by enemy and apart from it. I'm trying to help you understand Ed out of love.

Hi AgeofKnowledge,
You have not in any manner answered my questions. You have tried to denigrate me in both answers and once again you have tried to drown me in an avalanche of off subject scripture.
The words Jesus spoke reveal God in him.
The words you speak reveal who you really are.
Is this the fourth time?
Again I ask the same questions and these questions are just quotes from YOUR postings to me.
I quote you, "It is heresy to affirm that there is an ontological subordination of one member of the Trinity to another since they are identical in essence"
Then in another part of the same post.
I quote you. " His submission to the Father was not just for time but will be for all eternity"
So again I ask you to explain what you mean by these two statements.

I wont use this post to ask the second question because I want to give it the same prominence I have given this subject. I really do seek answers to these statements by you and I do not want you to bury the questions.
love
ed

 

[ed]

Hi AgeofKnowledge,
This is my second question, (again asked multiple times) which is again a question caused by your words.
I quote you. " Knowledge, righteousness, and holiness. Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden possessed these latter qualities before their fall into sin."


So my question is about the knowledge you say that Adam and Eve had before their fall into sin.
I thought they were so innocent they were not even aware of their nakedness. I thought it was their disobedience to God in seeking knowledge that allowed sin to enter.

love
edwin

 

[ed]

Ed my teaching is straight from the scholars at mainstream conservative Christian seminaries where I received a M.Div. with an A average. My foundation is theologically sound. There is nothing unusual about it at all. You're problem is with mainstream evangelical New Testament theology, not me personally.

The Bible teaches that Jesus is God (John 1:1) and that He knows all things (John 224; Col. 2:2-3). On the other hand, He "grew in wisdom" (Luke 2:52) and sometimes did not seem to know certain things (cf. John 11:34). Indeed, He denied knowing the time of His own second coming here and in Mark 13:32, saying, "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."​

We must distinguish between what Jesus knew as God (everything) and what He knew as man (not everything). As God, Jesus was omniscient (all-knowing), but as man He was limited in His knowledge. This passage is not a denial of the deity of Christ; rather, it is in harmony with the distinction between the two natures of Christ, one divine and one human. A reciprocity of personal knowledge between God the Father and God the Son is affirmed in scripture.​

This teaching is taught by every mainstream conservative Christian seminary I've ever interacted with. CARM, a mainstream Christian apologetic ministry, elaborates on it as follows:​

"As a man, Jesus walked and talked. As God He was worshipped (Matt. 14:33; 28:9; Heb. 1:6), prayed to (Zech. 13:9; 1 Cor. 1:2), etc. This is called the Hypostatic Union.

During His earthly ministry He moved in the power of the Holy Spirit and did His miracles by the Holy Spirit and not by His own divine power. This is because He was made for a little while lower than the angels (Heb. 2:9) and had emptied Himself and taken on the form of a man (Phil. 2:7).​

This would explain why in Matt. 12:22-32, when the Pharisees accused Jesus of casting out demons by the power of the devil, Jesus said that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit would never be forgiven? Why? Because Jesus, as a man who was ministering completely as a man under the Law (Gal. 4:4-5), did His miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit.

This demonstrates that Christ was completely human and dependent upon God and that He was cooperating with the limitations of being human. That is why He said He didn't know the day or hour of His return.

However, we see that after the resurrection of Christ it is said of Him that He knows all things (John 21:17) and that He is omnipresent (Matt. 28:20). Therefore, after His resurrection and glorification, the Lord Jesus did know all things."

All bases are covered. It's clear, systematic, and logical. I think you paint it in the terms you do because you don't want to accept this very Christian and very mainstream teaching as it doesn't align with your own.

Time to get some rest. Peace.

Hi AgeofKnowledge,
This is a great example of your manner of communication. You ignore the whole question being asked and cut out some section on which to ramble.
Is this a method taught at college?
love
edwin.
PS Would you like to answer the whole question.

 

[Saint]

Hi AgeofKnowledge,
This is my second question, (again asked multiple times) which is again a question caused by your words.
I quote you. " Knowledge, righteousness, and holiness. Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden possessed these latter qualities before their fall into sin."


So my question is about the knowledge you say that Adam and Eve had before their fall into sin.
I thought they were so innocent they were not even aware of their nakedness. I thought it was their disobedience to God in seeking knowledge that allowed sin to enter.

love
edwin

that reminds me of the teachings of the church during the dark ages, don't tell the peasants what the Bible says, just tell them what's right. and you really warped that story anyways, because it wasn't the quest for general knowledge that was a sin, it was the quest for a specific knowledge, the knowledge of good and evil. to say that looking for knowledge is sin is like saying that looking for wisdom is sin, because wisdom is the proper use of knowledge. and plus, there were no better scholars than the writers of the Bible, and there plus, 2 Peter tells us in chapter 1 that we must add to our goodness knowledge and that we should be productive in our knowledge. so obviously knowledge is something we should search out.

 

[ed]

You obviously missed my earlier post in which I said that the attributes of God are not instinctive, thus though He is omniscient, He is not "forced" to know everything. That is why He can forget my sins. That is also why Jesus could set aside those attributes that would have kept Him from true humanity. On the other hand, even those attributes that we share with God, we share in lesser degree. Jesus retained those in full degree. Thus He is fully God and fully man.
The straightforward truth is this: Jesus claimed that He was God. The apostles also claimed that He was God. Jesus spoke of the Father and the Holy Spirit as separate persons. The apostles also spoke of the Father and the Holy Spirit as separate persons than Jesus. The Bible consistantly claims that there is one God.
So here are your choices:
1. Ignore one or more of those facts.
2. God with the scoffers and just say that the Bible is full of contradictions.
3. Accept that God is ontologically one with three persons.

Hi charisenexcelcis,
Thanks for responding. We are totally agreed that there is a Father and a Son and a Holy Spirit. In the list above you state that God is ontologically one with three persons. I assume then that you believe God has always been this way. Then following on with your belief, not mine, please explain to me why God came in the flesh and left the Son in heaven.
My problem with your position is that you don't have Jesus Christ the Son of God. You are not saved. You have God manifested in the flesh of the son of Mary. By having God come in the flesh you have rejected the Son.
My belief is that the Word, the Son of God was manifested in the flesh, the son of Mary.
Mary's son was the body prepared for the Son who pre-existed creation.
Can you tell me where my belief in scripture is wrong. I know your belief in the trinity is not in scripture.
love
edwin

 

[charisenexcelcis]

Hi charisenexcelcis,
Thanks for responding. We are totally agreed that there is a Father and a Son and a Holy Spirit. In the list above you state that God is ontologically one with three persons. I assume then that you believe God has always been this way. Then following on with your belief, not mine, please explain to me why God came in the flesh and left the Son in heaven.
Jesus, God the Son, laid aside His omniscience, his omnipotence, and His omnipresence to become a man, but retained His absolute holiness, His unmeasureable love, His grace, His perfection of character, etc. In this way He remained fully God. Those attributes that He laid aside, He did not loose and therefore God was not diminished.
My problem with your position is that you don't have Jesus Christ the Son of God. You are not saved. You have God manifested in the flesh of the son of Mary. By having God come in the flesh you have rejected the Son.
Jesus is the Son of God from all eternity. The relationship is not biological but is a relationship of love.
My belief is that the Word, the Son of God was manifested in the flesh, the son of Mary.
Mary's son was the body prepared for the Son who pre-existed creation.
But you deny that Jesus was God. That is where we disagree. Jesus claimed to be God and the apostles claimed that He is God.
Can you tell me where my belief in scripture is wrong. I know your belief in the trinity is not in scripture.
love
edwin

My belief is in scripture. The word I use to discribe that Biblical belief is the trinity. It is much shorteer than to write the whole thing out.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Calm down Ed. Bible College is a good thing. You should enroll. I've articulated myself very well. Setting up strawmen and knocking them down may be a favorite past time of yours but it's not one I'm going to play with you. I'll be happy to repost my responses repeatedly. Maybe someday the light bulb will come on. In the meantime, peace and God bless you.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Here's one for the road

The Bible teaches that Jesus is God (John 1:1) and that He knows all things (John 224; Col. 2:2-3). On the other hand, He "grew in wisdom" (Luke 2:52) and sometimes did not seem to know certain things (cf. John 11:34). Indeed, He denied knowing the time of His own second coming here and in Mark 13:32, saying, "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

We must distinguish between what Jesus knew as God (everything) and what He knew as man (not everything). As God, Jesus was omniscient (all-knowing), but as man He was limited in His knowledge. This passage is not a denial of the deity of Christ; rather, it is in harmony with the distinction between the two natures of Christ, one divine and one human. A reciprocity of personal knowledge between God the Father and God the Son is affirmed in scripture.

This teaching is taught by every mainstream conservative Christian seminary I've ever interacted with. CARM, a mainstream Christian apologetic ministry, elaborates on it as follows:

"As a man, Jesus walked and talked. As God He was worshipped (Matt. 14:33; 28:9; Heb. 1:6), prayed to (Zech. 13:9; 1 Cor. 1:2), etc. This is called the Hypostatic Union.

During His earthly ministry He moved in the power of the Holy Spirit and did His miracles by the Holy Spirit and not by His own divine power. This is because He was made for a little while lower than the angels (Heb. 2:9) and had emptied Himself and taken on the form of a man (Phil. 2:7).​

This would explain why in Matt. 12:22-32, when the Pharisees accused Jesus of casting out demons by the power of the devil, Jesus said that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit would never be forgiven? Why? Because Jesus, as a man who was ministering completely as a man under the Law (Gal. 4:4-5), did His miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit.

This demonstrates that Christ was completely human and dependent upon God and that He was cooperating with the limitations of being human. That is why He said He didn't know the day or hour of His return.

However, we see that after the resurrection of Christ it is said of Him that He knows all things (John 21:17) and that He is omnipresent (Matt. 28:20). Therefore, after His resurrection and glorification, the Lord Jesus did know all things."

It's clear, systematic, and logical.

Isn't sound doctrine good. It's good to read it and reread it and then read it again. Praise the Lord for this proper understanding. God bless.

 

[BananaPie]

Dear Edwin and Israel:

Have you considered what it means “be transformed by the renewing of your mind?” (Romans 12:2)

How is “renewing your mind” renewing you today from a week ago?
Why is “renewing your mind” recommended in the Bible?

Remember, dear ones, the saints of God are “awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, who shall confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1Cor.1:7-8)

If we are not “renewing,” as in His mercies are new every morning, why should we be found blameless on the most important day of mankind? Without godly renewal of the mind, we are stagnant, filthy rags, dead.

As part of the daughters in the King and in all respect to what you hold dear to your hearts, I encourage you to count it for lost, be humble, and let my Lord Jesus renew you by the same Holy Spirit abiding in Him, and you too will be found blameless in that day. That’s a promise from the Lord.

Our one sole goal in this journey is to see Jesus face to face “and crown Him, we will crown Him, in the glory land we will crown Him King…” as the hymn goes.

 

[Israel]

Dear Edwin and Israel:

Have you considered what it means “be transformed by the renewing of your mind?” (Romans 12:2)

How is “renewing your mind” renewing you today from a week ago?
Why is “renewing your mind” recommended in the Bible?

Remember, dear ones, the saints of God are “awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, who shall confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1Cor.1:7-8)

If we are not “renewing,” as in His mercies are new every morning, why should we be found blameless on the most important day of mankind? Without godly renewal of the mind, we are stagnant, filthy rags, dead.

As part of the daughters in the King and in all respect to what you hold dear to your hearts, I encourage you to count it for lost, be humble, and let my Lord Jesus renew you by the same Holy Spirit abiding in Him, and you too will be found blameless in that day. That’s a promise from the Lord.

Our one sole goal in this journey is to see Jesus face to face “and crown Him, we will crown Him, in the glory land we will crown Him King…” as the hymn goes.

I understand it but does this mean to believe in the trinity? Again, common sense says that if God said to make sure Israel saw no similitude of Him, why then continue to make an image of Him?

John 16:1-2

These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.
2They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

This is the time we are living in now. No one wants to hear the truth as simplicity and common sense is drowned in a flood of philosophy and a puffed up knowledge of vanity. People who call me a heretic think they are doing God a service. For truly I can not buy or sell without the mark.

 

[Saint]

This is the time we are living in now. No one wants to hear the truth as simplicity and common sense is drowned in a flood of philosophy and a puffed up knowledge of vanity. People who call me a heretic think they are doing God a service. For truly I can not buy or sell without the mark.

or it's the other way around. And what do you mean buy or sell?

 

[Israel]

or it's the other way around. And what do you mean buy or sell?

The truth is now being supressed by the beast system. Those speaking of the truth have a very difficult time in one accepting that message because of the mainstream method which is accepted, but carries with it the mark of the beast.

 

[Saint]

The truth is now being supressed by the beast system. Those speaking of the truth have a very difficult time in one accepting that message because of the mainstream method which is accepted, but carries with it the mark of the beast.

wow, israel, you just called me an unsaved, hateful, follower of Satan. hmm, well i haven't insulted you, you have insulted me, God doesn't want us to insult people, Satan wants us to insult others. Have you read my thread, "looking for a fight?"

 

[charisenexcelcis]

wow, israel, you just called me an unsaved, hateful, follower of Satan. hmm, well i haven't insulted you, you have insulted me, God doesn't want us to insult people, Satan wants us to insult others. Have you read my thread, "looking for a fight?"

I'm not sure that is what he means.. If anything, Israel is too broad in his acceptance. He tends to only say half of what he is saying and so it is easy to misunderstand him.

 

[Saint]

I'm not sure that is what he means.. If anything, Israel is too broad in his acceptance. He tends to only say half of what he is saying and so it is easy to misunderstand him.

i was getting that from when he said that what i believe carries the mark of the beast

 

[charisenexcelcis]

i was getting that from when he said that what i believe carries the mark of the beast

Yeah, I saw that too, just doesn't sound like Israel. And sometimes he only says part of what he thinks he's saying.

 

[Israel]

wow, israel, you just called me an unsaved, hateful, follower of Satan. hmm, well i haven't insulted you, you have insulted me, God doesn't want us to insult people, Satan wants us to insult others. Have you read my thread, "looking for a fight?"

I never said you weren't saved and I never insulted you. You asked me a question and I gave you the meaning of my statement. You are a believer as I am in Christ.


Revelation 18:3-4

For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

I too belong to this people and are now starting to come out of her. We must realize that no matter who it is, Christian, Muslim, Jew, Budhist, or whomever else the world has labeled us, are fight is not with flesh and blood.

 

[superdave5221]

Isn't the job of the Holy Spirit is to bring all things to remembrance? I understand the concept of marriage but that does not answer the question. How are there two spirit beings in a triune God?

I don't know. You don't know. So it can't be true? That is your logic?

Psalm 102: 24 I say, "O my God, do not take me away in the midst of my days, Your years are throughout all generations. 25 "Of old You founded the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. 26 "Even they will perish, but You endure ; And all of them will wear out like a garment ; Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed. 27 "But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end.


Hebrews 1: 8 But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9 "YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS ; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS." 10 And, "YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS ; 11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN ; AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, 12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP; LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED. BUT YOU ARE THE SAME, AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END."

Isn't it interesting that the Hebrews writer quotes Psalm 102, written as a description of God, and uses the same description to describe Jesus Christ?

There is much wisdom in the bible, but it is foolishness to those who are held accountable to worldly knowledge.

Each of these descriptions is of an entity that existed before the world was, and will exist after it is no longer.

 

[Saint]

I never said you weren't saved

so when you said that what i believe carries the mark of the beast