Healing in the Atonement?

joaniemarie · Feb 28, 2018

Wolf., I didn't live in the past before the Bible was completed. I didn't live in the days when other Christians believed God was condemning them and was endorsing the hierarchy in the Catholic church to kill them if they didn't obey the churches teachings. (or any other religion man controlled people with) I'm soooo thankful I live in a day when reading and writing are taught., where the Bible is free to read anytime/anywhere here in America. It can be read in all kinds of languages and all kinds of translations.

I have many Bibles here at home along with concordances and dictionaries. And I have access on line and access in my community to learn more about the Bible and the truth of God. I am also so thankful that the Holy Spirit teaches us in such a beautiful way using the Bible and the gifts of Pastors and teachers and evangelists in the body of Christ. Yet even with the Bible and education., many people are mean and nasty and ugly in America as well as the world because they don't believe.

I cannot go by what others have done or are doing or will do. I can only go by what I'm learning from the Holy Spirit and the Bible and teachers and pastors who are teaching me things that maybe you or others here don't agree with wolf.. That's ok because I'm not the Holy Spirit and neither are you or they. I can share but I can't convince., and neither can you. We can trust the Holy Spirit with the process. He is the One who convinces and convicts.

wolfwint · Feb 28, 2018

joaniemarie said:

Joanmarie at least in this I agree with you ??????
What I do not believe is that the Holy Spirit says yes to false doctrine.
Yes we lived not in the time of the NT and in the churchhistory. ( it starts with our bornagain time ??????)
But it wonders me that you are not compare the todays teaching with the teaching We found in the scriptures of the NT believers. They are not taught that speaking in tongues is the sign for be baptised with the Holy Spirit.
They are not taught that people must be slain with the spirit. They are not taught to act, move and noising like animals ore uncontrolled laughing.
We all are agree that the RCC is teaching a false doctrine, but today " spiritfilled" leaders of the renewingmovement in the RCC defending the teachings of the RCC ( i speak from germany). The Holy Spirit teaches not to the one so and to the others different. This fit not together.
How can I say doesnt matter? Everybody is right, if we love each other?

wolfwint · Feb 28, 2018

Sorry, the questionmarks should be smilies

stonesoffire · Feb 28, 2018

wolfwint said:

You posted my name to Joanie's post here wolf.

Who told you that no one received the baptism of Holy Spirit with speaking in tongues until 1900? The book of Acts is ongoing and hasn't ever stopped. We will sit down one day and review what we have missed hearing of, or seeing in our present time, or presence.

wolfwint · Feb 28, 2018

stonesoffire said:

Sorry Stones, but thank you for reply.
Before the pentecostals came with this teaching you could not find it during the whole churchhistory and you csnt find it on the letters of the NT. Although Paul wrote a lot about spiritual gifts and the Holy Spirit, nowwhere he mentioned that speaking in tongues is the sign that people receive the Holy Spirit. You mentioned the book of acts. There exist also an other meaning about the events where it mentioned that speaking in tongues was along with receiving the Holy Spirit. When you take the text as it is then acts 2 speak about the coming of the Holy Spirit and acts 8, 10 and 19 speak about that the Holy Spirit was not only given to the Jews (2), but also to the samaritians (8), the gentiles(10) and the disciples of John the baptist (19). To see more in it is human teaching, but not what the bible teaches.
Whoever is born again has the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit teaches what is true. Why he should hide this knowledge about more then 1800 years and reveal it only a part of the body of Christ. And the other part cant see that is the Holy Spirit behind.

7777pinacled · Feb 28, 2018

joaniemarie said:

simple really,
i was just equating Nebuchadnezzar to the lion of the tribe of ismal(islam)

Do you trust in the Lord to shut the mouths of lions?

Stunnedbygrace · Feb 28, 2018

joaniemarie said:

Nope. Not letting it go. Not shutting up either, even though he wishes I would and has told me to.

7seasrekeyed · Feb 28, 2018

7777pinacled said:

lions

liars

probably both and let Him choose then

stonesoffire · Feb 28, 2018

wolfwint said:

Sorry Stones, but thank you for reply.
Before the pentecostals came with this teaching you could not find it during the whole churchhistory and you csnt find it on the letters of the NT. Although Paul wrote a lot about spiritual gifts and the Holy Spirit, nowwhere he mentioned that speaking in tongues is the sign that people receive the Holy Spirit. You mentioned the book of acts. There exist also an other meaning about the events where it mentioned that speaking in tongues was along with receiving the Holy Spirit. When you take the text as it is then acts 2 speak about the coming of the Holy Spirit and acts 8, 10 and 19 speak about that the Holy Spirit was not only given to the Jews (2), but also to the samaritians (8), the gentiles(10) and the disciples of John the baptist (19). To see more in it is human teaching, but not what the bible teaches.
Whoever is born again has the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit teaches what is true. Why he should hide this knowledge about more then 1800 years and reveal it only a part of the body of Christ. And the other part cant see that is the Holy Spirit behind.

I assume you aren't including Catholic saints? Let me check on this wolf. Will get back to you probably tomorrow.

joaniemarie · Feb 28, 2018

7777pinacled said:

Thank you 7777pinacled., I'm not really read up on Nebuchadnezzar and the tribe of ismal (islam) So it's not as simple for me. But I do trust the Lord can shut the mouths of lions. Also that He can and will heal and do many amazing things in the lives of us born again believers when we trust in the finished work of Christ. Blessings!!

Stunnedbygrace · Mar 1, 2018

Meow...

Such ridiculousness!

wolfwint · Mar 1, 2018

stonesoffire said:

Thanks, btw it would be new for me that RCC teaches baptizing with the Holy Spirit as the pentecostal do.
A part of my family belongs to the RCC.

Lancelot · Mar 1, 2018

wolfwint said:

Dispensationalism came under attack in the 1950s and 1960s, and Charles Ryrie wrote a defense of the subject called Dispensationalism Today. In that book he answered the critics who said that dispensationalism had never been taught in the history of the church by saying "... the ultimate test of the truth of any doctrine is whether it is in accord with biblical revelation. The fact that the church taught something in the first century does not make it true, and, likewise, if the church did not teach something until the twentieth century, it is not necessarily false."

Having said that, let's review the true history of the manifestations of spiritual gifts in church history.

2nd Century – The Didache was written, instructing ministers to allow prophetic ministries in their churches and providing guidelines on how to test prophetic utterances. Justin Martyr wrote a letter wherein he referred to believers ministering healing and casting out devils. Irenaeus and Ignatius also recorded cases of believers speaking in foreign tongues, prophecy, healing, visions, and even raising of the dead.
3rd Century – Origen wrote of signs and wonders confirming the gospel.
4th & 5th Century – Latin theologian Hilary of Poitiers wrote about gifts of the Spirit in operation “bearing witness to His grace”. Ambrose taught that the gifts listed in I Corinthians 12 were part of the normal Christian experience. Augustine wrote about miraculous healings that occurred in Hippo in his book City of God.
Middle Ages (500-1500 AD) – Biographers recorded that St. Hildegarde of Bingen wrote numerous books on the Christian faith in Latin, despite the fact that she had never learned the language. She was also said to have seen visions, sung in unknown tongues, and prophesied. St. Dominic is said to have spoken German on one occasion with no prior study. St. Antony of Padua spoke in tongues and once reportedly preached in foreign tongues. St. Francis Xavier spoke in tongues and ministered healing.
16th Century – The Anabaptists had frequent manifestations of tongues. Louis Bertrand had tongues, prophecy, and miracles occur in his ministry.
17th Century – The Ranters and the Quakers recorded instances of the power of the Lord coming upon them and speaking through them.
18th Century – Speaking in tongues was seen among the Moravians, the Methodists, and in the meetings of Jonathan Edwards during the Great Awakening.
19th Century – Gifts of the Spirit continued to be seen among members of the Holiness movement birthed by Methodism. The Faith Cure and Higher Life movements saw an emphasis on divine healing.

wolfwint · Mar 1, 2018

Lancelot said:

Dispensationalism came under attack in the 1950s and 1960s, and Charles Ryrie wrote a defense of the subject called Dispensationalism Today. In that book he answered the critics who said that dispensationalism had never been taught in the history of the church by saying "... the ultimate test of the truth of any doctrine is whether it is in accord with biblical revelation. The fact that the church taught something in the first century does not make it true, and, likewise, if the church did not teach something until the twentieth century, it is not necessarily false."

Having said that, let's review the true history of the manifestations of spiritual gifts in church history.

2nd Century – The Didache was written, instructing ministers to allow prophetic ministries in their churches and providing guidelines on how to test prophetic utterances. Justin Martyr wrote a letter wherein he referred to believers ministering healing and casting out devils. Irenaeus and Ignatius also recorded cases of believers speaking in foreign tongues, prophecy, healing, visions, and even raising of the dead.
3rd Century – Origen wrote of signs and wonders confirming the gospel.
4th & 5th Century – Latin theologian Hilary of Poitiers wrote about gifts of the Spirit in operation “bearing witness to His grace”. Ambrose taught that the gifts listed in I Corinthians 12 were part of the normal Christian experience. Augustine wrote about miraculous healings that occurred in Hippo in his book City of God.
Middle Ages (500-1500 AD) – Biographers recorded that St. Hildegarde of Bingen wrote numerous books on the Christian faith in Latin, despite the fact that she had never learned the language. She was also said to have seen visions, sung in unknown tongues, and prophesied. St. Dominic is said to have spoken German on one occasion with no prior study. St. Antony of Padua spoke in tongues and once reportedly preached in foreign tongues. St. Francis Xavier spoke in tongues and ministered healing.
16th Century – The Anabaptists had frequent manifestations of tongues. Louis Bertrand had tongues, prophecy, and miracles occur in his ministry.
17th Century – The Ranters and the Quakers recorded instances of the power of the Lord coming upon them and speaking through them.
18th Century – Speaking in tongues was seen among the Moravians, the Methodists, and in the meetings of Jonathan Edwards during the Great Awakening.
19th Century – Gifts of the Spirit continued to be seen among members of the Holiness movement birthed by Methodism. The Faith Cure and Higher Life movements saw an emphasis on divine healing.

Non of them taught baptism with the Holy spirit and as sign for that speaking in tongues as the pentecostal and charismatic movement today teaches. And this beginning is according the witness of the pentecostal movement in 1900.

7777pinacled · Mar 1, 2018

joaniemarie said:

I likely relate more with danyl having a mans perspective in this life.
Where even esther shut the mouths of lions, there the enemy is destroyed by Faith.
I know there are some here who scoff at the Lords Word, they are the ones that forgot that it was Yosef who was sold into slavery to ismal, then in turn ismal sold him to egypt.

Love your neighbors
Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord.

(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.

Esther
For the word of the queen will spread to all the women, to make them despise their husbands in their eyes, when they say, 'King Ahasuerus ordered to bring Vashti the queen before him, but she did not come.'
And this day, the princesses of Persia and Media who heard the word of the queen will say [the like] to all the princes of the king, and [there will be] much contempt and wrath.

7777pinacled · Mar 1, 2018

joaniemarie said:

You are welcome sis.

From now on would you mind allowing a little room for a brother in the Holy One of Yisrayl to offer a treasure stored up in experience while walking in prayer for a handful of yrs.
If the You have confessed with your mouth and believe, then Remember it is The Holy One who is your Redeemer. And if an enemy of the Lord attempts to accuse you of anything peculiar like, "i heard in my own hearing that you said you were blameless and upright".
Take note that you said no such thing, And heed in your guarded Heart the Truth,. The accuser just slipped up in his speech and revealed to you a Blessing that your Heavenly Father has bestowed.
Not many have sat where iyov sat.
A strength of forgiveness and resolve in Trusting the Lord of Lights to bring a person through.

water, wind, then comes Fire to refine.

just as it is with esther.

seed_time_harvest · Mar 1, 2018

7777pinacled said:

Are you saying that healing the condition of our spirits comes from physical wine and oil ?

7777pinacled · Mar 1, 2018

Stunnedbygrace said:

shhh...

(0) A song. A psalm of Asaf:

2 (1) God, don’t remain silent!
Don’t stay quiet, God, or still;
3 (2) because here are your enemies, causing an uproar;
those who hate you are raising their heads,
4 (3) craftily conspiring against your people,
consulting together against those you treasure.

5 (4) They say, “Come, let’s wipe them out as a nation;
let the name of Isra’el be remembered no more!”
6 (5) With one mind they plot their schemes;
the covenant they have made is against you —
7 (6) the tents of Edom and the Yishma‘elim,
Mo’av and the Hagrim,
8 (7) G’val, ‘Amon and ‘Amalek,
P’leshet with those living in Tzor; (Selah)
9 (8) Ashur too is allied with them,
to reinforce the descendants of Lot.

10 (9) Do to them as you did to Midyan,
to Sisra and Yavin at Vadi Kishon —
11 (10) they were destroyed at ‘Ein-Dor
and became manure for the ground.
12 (11) Make their leaders like ‘Orev and Ze’ev,
all their princes like Zevach and Tzalmuna,
13 (12) who said, “Let’s take possession
of God’s meadows for ourselves.”

14 (13) My God, make them like whirling dust,
like chaff driven by the wind.
15 (14) Like fire burning up the forest,
like a flame that sets the mountains ablaze,
16 (15) drive them away with your storm,
terrify them with your tempest.
17 (16) Fill their faces with shame,
so that they will seek your name, Adonai.
18 (17) Let them be ashamed and fearful forever;
yes, let them perish in disgrace.
19 (18) Let them know that you alone,
whose name is Adonai,
are the Most High over all the earth.

[h=1]Philippians 2 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)[/h][FONT=&quot]2 Therefore, if you have any encouragement for me from your being in union with the Messiah, any comfort flowing from love, any fellowship with me in the Spirit, or any compassion and sympathy, 2 then complete my joy by having a common purpose and a common love, by being one in heart and mind. 3 Do nothing out of rivalry or vanity; but, in humility, regard each other as better than yourselves — 4 look out for each other’s interests and not just for your own.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 Let your attitude toward one another be governed by your being in union with the Messiah Yeshua:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]6 Though he was in the form of God,
he did not regard equality with God
something to be possessed by force.
7 On the contrary, he emptied himself,
in that he took the form of a slave
by becoming like human beings are.[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]And when he appeared as a human being,
8 he humbled himself still more
by becoming obedient even to death —
death on a stake as a criminal!
9 Therefore God raised him to the highest place
and gave him the name above every name;[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]10 that in honor of the name given Yeshua,
every knee will bow —
in heaven, on earth and under the earth —
11 and every tongue will acknowledge[a]
that Yeshua the Messiah is Adonai —
to the glory of God the Father.[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 So, my dear friends, just as you have always obeyed when I was with you, it is even more important that you obey now when I am away from you: keep working out your deliverance with fear and trembling,[b]13 for God is the one working among you both the willing and the working for what pleases him. 14 Do everything without kvetching or arguing, 15 so that you may be blameless and pure children of God, without defect in the midst of a twisted and perverted generation,[c]among whom you shine like stars in the sky, 16 as you hold on to the Word of Life. If you do this, I will be able to boast, when the Day of the Messiah comes, that I did not run or toil for nothing. 17 Indeed, even if my lifeblood is poured out as a drink offering over the sacrifice and service of your faith, I will still be glad and rejoice with you all. 18 Likewise, you too should be glad and rejoice with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]19 But I hope in the Lord Yeshua to send Timothy to you shortly, so that I too may be cheered by knowing how you are doing. 20 I have no one who compares with him, who will care so sincerely for your welfare — 21 people all put their own interests ahead of the Messiah Yeshua’s. 22 But you know his character, that like a child with his father he slaved with me to advance the Good News. 23 So I hope to send him just as soon as I see how things will go with me, 24 and I am confident in the Lord that before long I myself will come too.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]25 Also I considered it necessary to send you Epaphroditus, my brother, fellow-worker and fellow-soldier, the emissary whom you sent to take care of my needs; 26 since he has been longing for you all and has been distressed because you heard he was ill. 27 Indeed he was ill, close to death; but God had mercy on him — and not only on him, but also on me — otherwise I would have had sorrow piled on sorrow. 28 Therefore, I am all the more eager to send him, so that you may rejoice when you see him again; and I, for my part, may be less sad. 29 So give him a joyful welcome in the Lord; honor such people. 30 For he risked his life and nearly died working for the Messiah, in order to give me the help you were not in a position to give.[/FONT]

stonesoffire · Mar 1, 2018

wolfwint said:

The move of the baptism of Holy Spirit has come to the Catholic Church. I used to attend the meetings at Christ The King Church in Indiana. Connected somehow to Notre Dame I think. It's been a while, but they had a hotel that members were selling properties and moving into this hotel. I don't think it's what the entire church has accepted though.

Am surprised you didnt know.

stonesoffire · Mar 1, 2018

seed_time_harvest said:

The Spirit and the blood.

Healing in the Atonement?

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