Once Saved, Always Saved ... OR Can you Lose your Salvation?

[seed_time_harvest]

No.


Was Y-shua's death and resurrection worthless? Should we die in the first week of being Saved because we might lose our Salvation for people like me save in Feb. 1991.... Am I maybe not saved no more? ... I have sinned a lot in almost 30 years... repeated a lot of them.... I promise you over the last almost 30 years. Can I crucify Messiah again? Many of when I was 18 and got saved I have never repeated. Explain to me why Messiah is enough to get me saved but not keep me saved....

The same way he got you saved is the same way he'll keep you saved...........through your believing.

Keep believing.

Ralph- Do you see what AbigailZeke has been trying to get you to see now?Although what you said Is true,just know that salvation Is once and for all by the grace GOD provided by the shed blood of JESUS that atoned for sin of the world but conditional sanctification Is continuous.

If it was our sinning, as in the act of sinning, that sent Jesus to the Cross. He'd have to die over and over again, wouldn't He?

Amen,JESUS died once and for all.

 

[Ralph-]

If God saved you at your worse, would you not need to fall lower than your worse to lose your salvation?

No, you need only return to your unbelief.


But that unbelief is worse than before because you have turned your back on the truth in knowledge. The condition of that person will be worse than at first.


43“Now when the unclean spirit goes out of a man, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, and does not find it. 44“Then it says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came’; and when it comes, it finds it unoccupied, swept, and put in order. 45“Then it goes and takes along with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first."-Matthew 12:43-45

 

[Ralph-]

Ralph- Do you see what AbigailZeke has been trying to get you to see now?Although what you said Is true,just know that salvation Is once and for all by the grace GOD provided by the shed blood of JESUS that atoned for sin of the world but conditional sanctification Is continuous.

I'm okay with anyone who wants to believe that a genuine believer can never stop believing. They will find out the truth about that someday.

The important thing is that they believe that you must continue to believe to continue to be saved. That is what counts. Only the hyper-gracers are in disagreement about that. They insist you can even go back to the world in unbelief in a denial of the Christ that sanctified you and you will still be saved. I resist that blasphemous teaching with my whole being. But as for the rest of you, at least you defend the necessity for believing.

 

[Ralph-]

Romans 5 King James Version (KJV)

5 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Faith is how you access the grace of God in justification. Keep believing and you'll always have access into the grace of justification.

If you want to believe that believers will always believe and, therefore, will always have access to the grace of justification, well, fine. At least you believe that you have to continue to believe in order to continue to be saved. That's what counts.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I'm okay with anyone who wants to believe that a genuine believer can never stop believing. They will find out the truth about that someday.

The important thing is that they believe that you must continue to believe to continue to be saved. That is what counts. Only the hyper-gracers are in disagreement about that. They insist you can even go back to the world in unbelief in a denial of the Christ that sanctified you and you will still be saved. I resist that blasphemous teaching with my whole being. But as for the rest of you, at least you defend the necessity for believing.

I think they are also okay with you believing that you must continue to trust to be saved.
They just fear that you don't know that you would fail in it if not for Him giving you trust and then keeping you in it.

Admittedly, there is some variation because some believe that to trust is a choice and some believe the trust is a gift not of themselves and so think they shouldn't boast about their gift as if they produced it.

 

[Ralph-]

I think they are also okay with you believing that you must continue to trust to be saved.
They just fear that you don't know that you would fail in it if not for Him giving you trust and then keeping you in it.

Admittedly, there is some variation because some believe that to trust is a choice and some believe the trust is a gift not of themselves and so think they shouldn't boast about their gift as if they produced it.

The problem is that people don't differentiate between faith (the ability to know something is true that you can't see-Hebrews 11:1) and the believing/trust that you then do in response to God's gift of faith.

The difference can be illustrated every time you or I, or anybody says, "I have the faith to believe", or, "I don't have the faith to believe". See? We believe and trust in something if we first have the faith that something is true.

In the case of the gospel, God gives the ability to know the gospel is true (that is, he gives faith), we then either decide to believe it or we decide not to. The believing part is what WE do. The giving of the faith that makes it so we can choose to believe is what GOD does. And our believing is certainly nothing we can boast in because we can't do it without God's gracious gift of faith.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

The problem is that people don't differentiate between faith (the ability to know something is true that you can't see-Hebrews 11:1) and the believing/trust that you then do in response to God's gift of faith.

The difference can be illustrated every time you or I, or anybody says, "I have the faith to believe", or, "I don't have the faith to believe". See? We believe and trust in something if we first have the faith that something is true.

In the case of the gospel, God gives the ability to know the gospel is true (that is, he gives faith), we then either decide to believe it or we decide not to. The believing part is what WE do. The giving of the faith that makes it so we can choose to believe is what GOD does. And our believing is certainly nothing we can boast in because we can't do it without God's gracious gift of faith.

Define: faith.
Define: believe.
Define: trust.
Define: abide.

 

[Ralph-]

I think they are also okay with you believing that you must continue to trust to be saved.

Actually, some are not okay with it. They make the argument that believing is a work of self righteousness if I have to do it. They do not know that believing is not a work of self righteousness but is in fact diametrically opposed to working to be righteous. Paul said so.


"5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness"-Romans 4:5


See? Work and believing are contrasted with each other as to what justifies, not equated with each other. But many say if I have to keep believing to be saved then I'm working to be saved. My believing wasn't me trying to save myself when I first believed, but for some reason now it is if I have to continue that exact same believing to be saved.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Define: faith.
Define: believe.
Define: trust.
Define: abide.

His problem is he does nto understand what true saving faith is.

If he would ever find that truth, all the rest would fall in place.

Faith does not = believe. I can believe in something, then I can stop believing in something, we do it all the time, mulitple times throughout our lives, and even at times, during the day.

Believe is influenced by circumstances. That is why it is so wishy washy, because it is not rooted in trust, it is just rooted in an idea, It is rooted in self. Not in the thing which we are asked to trust. We have somethign we have already trusted in, and are asked to trust in somethign else. We may believe that thing to be true, and may try it out for awhile. But if we never ocme to trust that thing, it will never take root. We will always revert back to what we really trusted to begin with (an example is a jew, who tried the christian idea, but went back to law. Because law is where their real faith lay,)


Faith, on the other hand, is rooted in trust, in assurace (the greek makes this clear) which is far deeper than mere believe (rooted in an idea or what we think) and is not wishy washy, it depeneds not on the one who has the faith, but on the one who we are trusting in, As long as the one who we have faith continues to prove to be trustworthy, we will continue to have faith, the only way we lose faith, is if the person stops being truystworthy and is shown to be a fraud. Thats why faith in Christ can never be lost. Because it is rooted in him, not in ourself. (Saying we can lose faith means God becomes untrustworthy)

 

[Ralph-]

Define: faith.

The supernatural power to know something is true that you can't see or otherwise know is true on your own. This power comes from God and God alone. It's a gift. God gives it for free. Some reject it, in effect calling God a liar. Some retain it and are saved (John 5:6-10).

Define: believe.

To decide that something is true.

Define: trust.

To rely on what you know to be true.

Define: abide.

To continue in.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Define: faith.
Define: believe.
Define: trust.
Define: abide.

He zips back out of here so fast I'd swear he has to be on a hover board.
I'll give my definitions of those words. coming in a sec.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

The supernatural power to know something is true that you can't see or otherwise know is true on your own. This power comes from God and God alone. It's a gift. God gives it for free. Some reject it, in effect calling God a liar. Some retain it and are saved (John 5:6-10).




To decide that something is true.




To rely on what you know to be true.



To continue in.

So by this supernatural gift of faith, you see that the gospel is true. If you see something is true, you don't decide to think it is true. You just DO see it is true. There really is no decision involved. And as for #3, don't all men rely on what they think is true? (Your #4 definition I agree with).

So in your previous post, which honestly was quite confusing to me, would it be okay with you to say that faith is a supernatural gift to see the truth of the gospel. To believe is to trust God. And Jesus. To trust is also to trust. And to abide is to continue in and grow in that trust?

Then we could say, I didn't believe God existed all my life and then He opened my eyes so I could see that He did exist and that Jesus exists (a supernatural gift of faith). So as a consequence of this gift, I now believe and trust Him and must continue to believe and trust Him more and more (abide).

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

At the very least, it could cut down on confusion to say that to believe and to trust are the same thing, couldn't we?

 

[Ralph-]

Thats why faith in Christ can never be lost. Because it is rooted in him, not in ourself. (Saying we can lose faith means God becomes untrustworthy)

Faith is the voice of God in the world by the Holy Spirit testifying to the truth of the gospel. He convinces the whole world that the gospel is true. Most reject what the Holy Spirit shows them to be true. A few accept it and retain it and are saved.

"It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
9If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. 10The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar"-1 John 5:6,9-10


You can see from the passage that everybody is shown that the gospel is true. This is the power of faith (the ability to know the gospel is true) that goes out to everybody in the world. But only a few believe what they are told is true through the power of God's faith. The rest reject what they have been told is true in effect calling God a liar.

All of this shows us that it is possible to lose faith. Just because faith (the ability to believe/trust) comes from God doesn't mean you can't reject it. But if you mistakenly equate faith with the believing that one does in response to faith then you will not see that it is in fact possible to reject faith.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Oy vey...you are confusing me...

 

[Ralph-]

At the very least, it could cut down on confusion to say that to believe and to trust are the same thing, couldn't we?

Yes. I usually do that. When I say 'believe' I mean 'trust'.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

At the very least, it could cut down on confusion to say that to believe and to trust are the same thing, couldn't we?

We could. But then we would be in error.

the demons believe God, they did not trust him, Thats why they are called demons or fallen angels. And not angels of the living God.

 

[Ralph-]

Oy vey...you are confusing me...

I figured.

But you can get this. Most people don't because they are not open and are hardened in their predetermined doctrines.


Faith is the ability to know something is true.

Believing is you placing your trust in what God has shown you to be true.


Faith comes from God. It's a gift.
Believing is what YOU do.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

We could. But then we would be in error.

the demons believe God, they did not trust him, Thats why they are called demons or fallen angels. And not angels of the living God.

Really??
Okay doodyhead, lets now have your definitions.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I figured.

But you can get this. Most people don't because they are not open and are hardened in their predetermined doctrines.


Faith is the ability to know something is true.

Believing is you placing your trust in what God has shown you to be true.


Faith comes from God. It's a gift.
Believing is what YOU do.

Faith is thre assurance of things that they are true

belief is just acknowledging that you agree that something happened.

People believe jesus, that he died on the cross. Thus they acknowledge, yes that is true, i believe that.

it does not mean that have faith on what the pupose of his event was for.

Believeing this event happened will not save you.