Once Saved, Always Saved ... OR Can you Lose your Salvation?

[Stunnedbygrace]

You gotta stop editing while I am quoting you.
I'llbe right back.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Really??
Okay doodyhead, lets now have your definitions.

I already did, in post 169 and also explained why people can stop believing, and why a person could stop having faith. And why we could never stop having faiht in God.

Faith does not = believe. I can believe in something, then I can stop believing in something, we do it all the time, mulitple times throughout our lives, and even at times, during the day.

Believe is influenced by circumstances. That is why it is so wishy washy, because it is not rooted in trust, it is just rooted in an idea, It is rooted in self. Not in the thing which we are asked to trust. We have somethign we have already trusted in, and are asked to trust in somethign else. We may believe that thing to be true, and may try it out for awhile. But if we never ocme to trust that thing, it will never take root. We will always revert back to what we really trusted to begin with (an example is a jew, who tried the christian idea, but went back to law. Because law is where their real faith lay,)


Faith, on the other hand, is rooted in trust, in assurace (the greek makes this clear) which is far deeper than mere believe (rooted in an idea or what we think) and is not wishy washy, it depeneds not on the one who has the faith, but on the one who we are trusting in, As long as the one who we have faith continues to prove to be trustworthy, we will continue to have faith, the only way we lose faith, is if the person stops being truystworthy and is shown to be a fraud. Thats why faith in Christ can never be lost. Because it is rooted in him, not in ourself. (Saying we can lose faith means God becomes untrustworthy)

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I figured.

But you can get this. Most people don't because they are not open and are hardened in their predetermined doctrines.


Faith is the ability to know something is true.

Believing is you placing your trust in what God has shown you to be true.


Faith comes from God. It's a gift.
Believing is what YOU do.

Hmm...I don't see faith as an ability...I see it as: giving sight to the blind.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You gotta stop editing while I am quoting you.
I'llbe right back.

Sorry, I always think of things after I hit send,,lol

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Now you're both confusing me...sorry missed the post on your definitions earlier. Need coffee to continue with you boneheads.

 

[Ralph-]

So by this supernatural gift of faith, you see that the gospel is true. If you see something is true, you don't decide to think it is true. You just DO see it is true. There really is no decision involved.

Correct.

And as for #3, don't all men rely on what they think is true?

No.
Many.....no.....MOST......decide to not believe what God has supernaturally proven to them is true about the gospel

So in your previous post, which honestly was quite confusing to me, would it be okay with you to say that faith is a supernatural gift to see the truth of the gospel.

Bingo! That's all it is. The supernatural ability to know without a doubt that something is true that you can't prove yourself is true. The Holy Spirit gives all men this ability so they can then believe in what they now know to be true and be saved. But MOST will choose NOT to believe/trust in it. Many are called (God shows them the truth), but few believe and trust in it and saved.

To believe is to trust God. And Jesus. To trust is also to trust.

In the context of the Christian, yes.
For the Christian, believe implies trust, not simply knowing that something is true.

And to abide is to continue in and grow in that trust?

Correct.
Faith that is retained, not rejected (read the 1 John 5 passage I posted) is what saves a person.

Then we could say, I didn't believe God existed all my life and then He opened my eyes so I could see that He did exist and that Jesus exists (a supernatural gift of faith). So as a consequence of this gift, I now believe and trust Him and must continue to believe and trust Him more and more (abide).

(Just now reading this.)

You got it!!!

 

[Ralph-]

Faith is thre assurance of things that they are true

belief is just acknowledging that you agree that something happened.

People believe jesus, that he died on the cross. Thus they acknowledge, yes that is true, i believe that.

it does not mean that have faith on what the pupose of his event was for.

Believeing this event happened will not save you.

I have made this clear in my posts to stunned.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Faith is thre assurance of things that they are true

belief is just acknowledging that you agree that something happened.

People believe jesus, that he died on the cross. Thus they acknowledge, yes that is true, i believe that.

it does not mean that have faith on what the pupose of his event was for.

Believeing this event happened will not save you.

I should wait for this coffee to brew before I even try this but I'll get started at least.

Faith is the assurance of things that they are true. I think I can agree with your definition...and this is a gift from God, correct?

 

[Ralph-]

Hmm...I don't see faith as an ability...I see it as: giving sight to the blind.

Faith is the ability for the blind person to now be able to see what he could not see on his own.


"1Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."-Hebrews 11:1


Faith is being convinced of something that you can't see......in other words being convinced of something that you are unable to confirm on your own. This ability to see the unseen is a gracious gift of God.

We are saved when we respond to God's free gift of faith with our believing/trusting, and continue in that believing/trusting.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I should wait for this coffee to brew before I even try this but I'll get started at least.

Faith is the assurance of things that they are true. I think I can agree with your definition...and this is a gift from God, correct?

I would rather start on my first set of defenitions, but this is ok

If we are trusting in the gift God gave us, then yes. He did all the work.

if we are trusting in our works. Then no,. That would be faith in self. Even though you may BELIEVE in God, thats why that belief is wishy washy, and can be lost. Because of root of the trust in not in the giver.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Faith is the ability for the blind person to now be able to see what he could not see on his own.


"1Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."-Hebrews 11:1


Faith is being convinced of something that you can't see......in other words being convinced of something that you are unable to confirm on your own. This ability to see the unseen is a gracious gift of God.

We are saved when we the respond to God's free gift of faith with our believing/trusting, and continue in that believing/trusting.

So is this gift of suddenly being able to see when before you couldn't, is it an ability or an assurance?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have made this clear in my posts to stunned.

I do not see that,. I see something totally different from this.

You stated belief is based on trust,. Nothing in my post says this to be true.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think the point of contention here is Ralph thinks faith can be lost. I do not. And I think the reason is based on how we define these words. And where the root of our faiht is, That is somethign I hope we can hash out and see what the difference is.

 

[Ralph-]

So is this gift of suddenly being able to see when before you couldn't, is it an ability or an assurance?

Both.

God gives the ability to know the unseen gospel is really true.

God gives assurance of the truth by making us able to see it.


And it is upon this assurance and revelation of the truth that we then decide to believe/trust, or decide to reject. Most will choose to not believe/trust in it and be saved.

 

[Ralph-]

You stated belief is based on trust

Not sure I worded like that.

In the context of the Christian, believing implies trusting, not just agreeing and acknowledging that something is true. For the Christian believing and trusting are synonymous. Not so for the lost. They may acknowledge that the gospel is real, but they do not trust in what they acknowledge is real.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Not sure I worded like that.

In the context of the Christian, believing implies trusting, not just agreeing and acknowledging that something is true. For the Christian believing and trusting are synonymous. Not so for the lost. They may acknowledge that the gospel is real, but they do not trust in what they acknowledge is real.

if this is true, what is your trust based on? Since trust must be earned, (it is dependent on the one we are basing our faith in) then how can trust be lost?

 

[Ralph-]

I think the point of contention here is Ralph thinks faith can be lost. I do not. And I think the reason is based on how we define these words.

Probably.

Faith is simply being able to know the unseen gospel is really true. It's entirely possible to reject that knowledge and be lost. The 1 John 5 passage I posted shows us that. In fact, MOST people in human history will reject the faith that God gives to know that the gospel of Christ is for real.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

This is very difficult but I think it is good exercise for us. But I need to re-read for a space here...

 

[mailmandan]

Not sure I worded like that.

In the context of the Christian, believing implies trusting, not just agreeing and acknowledging that something is true. For the Christian believing and trusting are synonymous. Not so for the lost. They may acknowledge that the gospel is real, but they do not trust in what they acknowledge is real.

The lost may acknowledge that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ “happened” (mental assent belief) but they do not trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation, as Christians (those who are saved) do.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

By the way, I see places where I agree with both of you and places where I think I disagree with both of you. And then I see places where I am confused with both of you. So...yeah, haha!