Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
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oh ben 
Do you realize that what you posted says we enter heaven based on what we do or dont do ??
Im worried for you
Do you realize that what you posted says we enter heaven based on what we do or dont do ??
Im worried for you
"All manner of sin shall be forgiven to man but rejecting the Holy Spirit shall not be forgiven to man." We certainly don't learn in our understanding. If we could learn in our understanding, it would be something we could do and salvation would be by works. "If there was a law that could make us perfect, salvation would have been by the Law." It remains that the mystery of God is not in our understanding but being led by His Spirit.
So from what you have given us, it looks like Peter is talking to people that are 'elected', 'begotten', 'have an incorruptible undefiled inheritance', 'kept by the power of God, through faith.
IOW we are saved, (in the past tense) and will trust in Jesus that all is right with us and we in no way lose our inheritance, and we no lonter have to worry about getting into heaven.
Well, if that is the case read the following scriptures after Peter tells them all the lovely things in verses 1-5:
1 Peter 1:13-17 King James Version (KJV)
13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
If all is set in stone at the moment you are saved, why must Peter tell us to gird up our loins and hope for grace, be obedient and not fashion ourselves after our former lusts, tell us to be holy as God is holy, for God judges according to every mans works, so pass the time of your sojourning her IN FEAR.
Why must we fear, if you are already saved (in past tense), and our place is reserved in heaven and it is in stone?
Why does Peter tell us to fear? Is it because in reality it is because we are not saved the second we believe in Jesus? Is it not in reality in stone until the end? Is it because the sealing can be undone if you do not do as Jesus tells you to do? The answer accoring to the scriptures is yes. The other half of the scriptures you don't like to read because they are not a part of your agenda to be auto saved and then slide into heaven on a rainbow.
Why is the bible not 1 page long. It takes only 1 page to say, by grace are you saved, and not of works, lest we boast. Written 27 times to the NT churches. Why all the instructions? Why all the admonitions to be clean and holy. Why all the admonitions to stay strong till the end? Why all the admonitions to be like Jesus? Why all the discussions of hell? Why all the scriptures on repentance? Why all the rest of the bible that talks about peacemakers, forgivers all seen in Matthew 5-7?
If it is all about grace, we would not need all the other words in the bible. But we need them because it is not all about grace.
IOW we are saved, (in the past tense) and will trust in Jesus that all is right with us and we in no way lose our inheritance, and we no lonter have to worry about getting into heaven.
Well, if that is the case read the following scriptures after Peter tells them all the lovely things in verses 1-5:
1 Peter 1:13-17 King James Version (KJV)
13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
If all is set in stone at the moment you are saved, why must Peter tell us to gird up our loins and hope for grace, be obedient and not fashion ourselves after our former lusts, tell us to be holy as God is holy, for God judges according to every mans works, so pass the time of your sojourning her IN FEAR.
Why must we fear, if you are already saved (in past tense), and our place is reserved in heaven and it is in stone?
Why does Peter tell us to fear? Is it because in reality it is because we are not saved the second we believe in Jesus? Is it not in reality in stone until the end? Is it because the sealing can be undone if you do not do as Jesus tells you to do? The answer accoring to the scriptures is yes. The other half of the scriptures you don't like to read because they are not a part of your agenda to be auto saved and then slide into heaven on a rainbow.
Why is the bible not 1 page long. It takes only 1 page to say, by grace are you saved, and not of works, lest we boast. Written 27 times to the NT churches. Why all the instructions? Why all the admonitions to be clean and holy. Why all the admonitions to stay strong till the end? Why all the admonitions to be like Jesus? Why all the discussions of hell? Why all the scriptures on repentance? Why all the rest of the bible that talks about peacemakers, forgivers all seen in Matthew 5-7?
If it is all about grace, we would not need all the other words in the bible. But we need them because it is not all about grace.
1 John 2:3-11 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command but an old one, which you have had since the beginning. This old command is the message you have heard. Yet I am writing you a new command; its truth is seen in him and you, because the darkness is passing and the true light is already shining. Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble. But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.
1 John 1:5-10 Walking in the Light This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
IT IS ONE THING TO SAY AND CLAIM AND ANOTHER THING TO DO AND WALK THE TALK.
New International Version 1984 James 2:26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
1 John 1:5-10 Walking in the Light This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
IT IS ONE THING TO SAY AND CLAIM AND ANOTHER THING TO DO AND WALK THE TALK.
New International Version 1984 James 2:26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
E
He does nto understand, We forgive because we have been forgiven, We love because we have been loved. It all is a RESULT of salvation. Not how we get saved.
Thats why the word says those who have eternal life are those who do his commanbds. Who are those who do his commands? Non believers? Lawyers tryign to earn salvation by owrks? Religious people tryingn to earn Gods love? Or those who experienced Gods mercy love and forgiveness, ands given the power of God to love others.
According to scripture. It is the last group.
The others can act like they were obedient, But like the pharisees, it is all on trhe outside. Inside there is no cleanliness, because the inside has not been washed wiht the pure water of God.
E
No that is not the word of the lord. Thats yoyu pulling the word out and twisting it to suit your own gospel of self righteousness.
According to you. By your post. He can forgive everyone and get to heaven, evn though he was a liar and a thief and other things you did not know of because you can not see.
You forgive BECAUSE you have been forgiven. Not so you can earn eternal life.
According to you. By your post. He can forgive everyone and get to heaven, evn though he was a liar and a thief and other things you did not know of because you can not see.
You forgive BECAUSE you have been forgiven. Not so you can earn eternal life.
Just admit it that you consider Christs teachings are FALSE and yours is always right. You are a LIAR and a DECEIVER.
John 8:44-47 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”
John 8:44-47 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”
originally posted by dcontroversal
….ALL who exercise saving faith into the work of Christ will have your sin debt covered, the imputed righteousness of Christ which = saved, sealed, justified and sanctified in Christ eternally…..
ElAmor
What do you mean by "exercise" isn't it to practice and not just say and claim or just a lip service? Do you preach about a genuine saving Faith without doing anything? Is preaching not a work? Assuming that Faith alone saves, can a person have Faith and be saved without someone preaching to them the Gospel of salvation?
If you are a preacher, can you say that you are not doing a work? If it is so then what are you doing? Is preaching the Gospel of our salvation irrelevant or unnecessary to our salvation? Does it embellish or add anything to your Faith ALONE doctrine?
dcon’s reply;
Take 1 second and actually think about and ponder what this thread is about.....serious.....it is about HOW ONE IS SAVED not WHAT THEY DO AFTER THEY ARE SAVED.....it IS FAITH ALONE THAT SAVES.....end of story........!
ElAmor
If “ Faith ALONE" saves, can one have faith without hearing the message? The verses below proves that a work is needed and essential to salvation….PREACHING.
It is not of ourselves that we may not boast.( ephesians 2:8-9 ) A Faith that works in Love.( galatians 5:6 ) A “selfless LOVE" that thinks about the welfare and SALVATION OF OTHERS and not just his own interests.( philippians 2:3-4, 1 john 3:16-18 )
Romans 10:14-17 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And HOW CAN THEY HEAR WITHOUT SOMEONE PREACHING TO THEM? And how can they preach UNLESS THEY ARE SENT? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” Consequently, FAITH COMES FROM HEARING THE MESSAGE, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.
2 John 1:4-11 It has given me great joy to find some of your children WALKING IN THE TRUTH, just as the Father COMMANDED US. And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had FROM THE BEGINNING. I ask that we love one another. And this is love: that we WALK IN OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you WALK IN LOVE. Many DECEIVERS, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as COMING IN THE FLESH, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the DECEIVER and the ANTICHRIST. Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. Anyone who RUNS AHEAD and DOES NOT CONTINUE in the TEACHING OF CHRIST does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him SHARES IN HIS WICKED WORK.
Who are those RUNNING AHEAD and DOES NOT CONTINUE IN THE TEACHING OF CHRIST?
They are those who CLAIM SALVATION is by Faith ALONE and ONCE SAVED they are ALWAYS SAVED therefore rejecting God’s Laws and commands which are in fact God’s own words, who says that even obedience to God cannot save anyone because they are works and Faith ALONE saves.
Who then is the deceiver and the ANTICHRIST?
They are those who do not continue in the teaching about WALKING IN LOVE which is WALKING IN OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS. Who do not acknowledge Jesus as coming in the flesh by the mere fact that they reject the LAW that prophesied about Jesus as coming in the flesh.
1 John 2:1-6 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. THE MAN WHO SAYS, “I KNOW HIM,” BUT DOES NOT DO WHAT HE COMMANDS IS A LIAR, AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him MUST WALK AS JESUS DID.
….-JESUS HIMSELF TAUGHT THAT WE SHOULD OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS.
Matthew 19:17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”
John 14:15 “If you love me, you will obey what I command.
Matthew 28:19-20 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
Luke 6:46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
….Does the true Gospel teaches disobedience? NO!!!
The True Gospel teaches LOVE and OBEDIENCE and not DISOBEDIENCE.
So whoever is teaching that OBEDIENCE to the commandments cannot be added to FAITH for salvation is rejecting God’s and Jesus’ commands to walk in obedience to His commands and it is clear in the bible who they truly are. (2 john 1:1-11)
Hebrews 5:7-9 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became THE SOURCE OF ETERNAL SALVATION FOR ALL WHO OBEY HIM.
….ALL who exercise saving faith into the work of Christ will have your sin debt covered, the imputed righteousness of Christ which = saved, sealed, justified and sanctified in Christ eternally…..
ElAmor
What do you mean by "exercise" isn't it to practice and not just say and claim or just a lip service? Do you preach about a genuine saving Faith without doing anything? Is preaching not a work? Assuming that Faith alone saves, can a person have Faith and be saved without someone preaching to them the Gospel of salvation?
If you are a preacher, can you say that you are not doing a work? If it is so then what are you doing? Is preaching the Gospel of our salvation irrelevant or unnecessary to our salvation? Does it embellish or add anything to your Faith ALONE doctrine?
dcon’s reply;
Take 1 second and actually think about and ponder what this thread is about.....serious.....it is about HOW ONE IS SAVED not WHAT THEY DO AFTER THEY ARE SAVED.....it IS FAITH ALONE THAT SAVES.....end of story........!
ElAmor
If “ Faith ALONE" saves, can one have faith without hearing the message? The verses below proves that a work is needed and essential to salvation….PREACHING.
It is not of ourselves that we may not boast.( ephesians 2:8-9 ) A Faith that works in Love.( galatians 5:6 ) A “selfless LOVE" that thinks about the welfare and SALVATION OF OTHERS and not just his own interests.( philippians 2:3-4, 1 john 3:16-18 )
Romans 10:14-17 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And HOW CAN THEY HEAR WITHOUT SOMEONE PREACHING TO THEM? And how can they preach UNLESS THEY ARE SENT? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” Consequently, FAITH COMES FROM HEARING THE MESSAGE, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.
2 John 1:4-11 It has given me great joy to find some of your children WALKING IN THE TRUTH, just as the Father COMMANDED US. And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had FROM THE BEGINNING. I ask that we love one another. And this is love: that we WALK IN OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you WALK IN LOVE. Many DECEIVERS, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as COMING IN THE FLESH, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the DECEIVER and the ANTICHRIST. Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. Anyone who RUNS AHEAD and DOES NOT CONTINUE in the TEACHING OF CHRIST does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him SHARES IN HIS WICKED WORK.
Who are those RUNNING AHEAD and DOES NOT CONTINUE IN THE TEACHING OF CHRIST?
They are those who CLAIM SALVATION is by Faith ALONE and ONCE SAVED they are ALWAYS SAVED therefore rejecting God’s Laws and commands which are in fact God’s own words, who says that even obedience to God cannot save anyone because they are works and Faith ALONE saves.
Who then is the deceiver and the ANTICHRIST?
They are those who do not continue in the teaching about WALKING IN LOVE which is WALKING IN OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS. Who do not acknowledge Jesus as coming in the flesh by the mere fact that they reject the LAW that prophesied about Jesus as coming in the flesh.
1 John 2:1-6 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. THE MAN WHO SAYS, “I KNOW HIM,” BUT DOES NOT DO WHAT HE COMMANDS IS A LIAR, AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him MUST WALK AS JESUS DID.
….-JESUS HIMSELF TAUGHT THAT WE SHOULD OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS.
Matthew 19:17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”
John 14:15 “If you love me, you will obey what I command.
Matthew 28:19-20 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
Luke 6:46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
….Does the true Gospel teaches disobedience? NO!!!
The True Gospel teaches LOVE and OBEDIENCE and not DISOBEDIENCE.
So whoever is teaching that OBEDIENCE to the commandments cannot be added to FAITH for salvation is rejecting God’s and Jesus’ commands to walk in obedience to His commands and it is clear in the bible who they truly are. (2 john 1:1-11)
Hebrews 5:7-9 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became THE SOURCE OF ETERNAL SALVATION FOR ALL WHO OBEY HIM.
I was not referring to you, but hey, if the shoe fits?
I have heard that expression before: Wise is the man with Few Words.
So I have been trying to keep my posts as brief as possible.
Another wise expression, was told to me by an elderly Pastor, that I respect as a Spiritual Grandfather. There is a wisdom that that can be gained through Bible College, but that is not a Spiritual Grandfather. It is the wisdom from years, and years, of Living the Word. He saw me witnessing downtown when I was little more than a Spiritual Adolescent. I noticed him come around the corner and learn back against the wall of the building, just listening. Come Sunday, he was by the front door, and asked me to step into his office for a bit. I went in and he shut the door. And then he said he had some advise that would help me be a better witness'
He said, "Keep it simple stupid, you were going clean over that guy's head."
I smile, remembering that lesson. I am smiling as I type this.
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I understand the different distinctives of the different Christian denominations They are tied together with the Apostles Creed. Mormons and other religions are not Christian. There are several religions claiming to be Christian but are not. The Apostles Creed defines what a Christian must believe!!
[/QUOTE]
Stupid 5 minute rule. 15 minutes other boards is more reasonable
In point of fact the 7 major denominations are secular. Presbyterian USA was taken over by secularists in 1932 as documented by Gary North in Crossed Fingers.
Live in the reality that the large 7 sisters are not Christian Each has several sub denominations that remain Christian. I met a Lutheran after an evening meeting inviting the public to the meeting and the refreshments after it. That Lutheran heard the gospslgospel for the first time in the meeting. He was shocked.
Stupid 5 minute rule. 15 minutes other boards is more reasonable
In point of fact the 7 major denominations are secular. Presbyterian USA was taken over by secularists in 1932 as documented by Gary North in Crossed Fingers.
Live in the reality that the large 7 sisters are not Christian Each has several sub denominations that remain Christian. I met a Lutheran after an evening meeting inviting the public to the meeting and the refreshments after it. That Lutheran heard the gospslgospel for the first time in the meeting. He was shocked.
The concept of God in relation to this verse gets confusing. Several times he stated the Father and i are one. Also if you have seen me you have seen the Father. Other times says only the Father knows. This makes the Trinity confusing.
John 1:1 to 14 New International Version (NIV)
The Word Became Flesh
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.
9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 1:1 to 14 New International Version (NIV)
The Word Became Flesh
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.
9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
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First, you're conflating a couple of texts...Matthew 6:15, Matthew 25:21 &c. That's a pretty serious mistake on your part, you're making the former the latter when it is not. Hopefully you're at least honest enough to admit this, and that you're making doctrine off of that error.
Are you going to admit to this error, or just continue on without admitting you've twisted Scripture here? If you admit it, then that would be a good starting point for you.
Your scenario is totally hypothetical so there is no authority in it at all. You're also judging who is saved here, when you just really don't know. Just because a person forgives, it does not necessitate they are born from above, and just because a child of God holds a grudge and does not forgive it doesn't mean they are lost. You're reading way too much into the text.
You offer up a good question, that is, where does by grace we are saved not of works fit in the above? It fits because no person is saved by works, all are saved by grace, and it isn't of themselves. To the contrary the scenario you are coming up with via conflated Scripture is eisegeting into texts things that are not there making salvation dependent upon man doing something to earn eternal life. Sir, you are misunderstanding and misusing texts to arrive at your conclusions.
You need to differentiate between texts that describe believers with those that prescribe salvation. "Repent and believe the Gospel" (Mark 1:15) would be one that shows the latter. Yet no person without God can do either of these, they are both granted by God and bring the elect into a dilemma which ultimately brings them to call out to God for mercy, repentance, faith, salvation.
Lastly, Matthew 6 isn't teaching what a person needs to do to get into heaven, it is describing a believer, that believers forgive others because they have been forgiven. Those who are unforgiving have not really experienced conversion or forgiveness, but at the same time even those converted will at times struggle with forgiving others and may hold onto that grudge! In such a case it doesn't mean that now God will cast them into hell, it means their Father can also hold their sins against them which has nothing to do with eternal salvation.
Are you going to admit to this error, or just continue on without admitting you've twisted Scripture here? If you admit it, then that would be a good starting point for you.
Your scenario is totally hypothetical so there is no authority in it at all. You're also judging who is saved here, when you just really don't know. Just because a person forgives, it does not necessitate they are born from above, and just because a child of God holds a grudge and does not forgive it doesn't mean they are lost. You're reading way too much into the text.
You offer up a good question, that is, where does by grace we are saved not of works fit in the above? It fits because no person is saved by works, all are saved by grace, and it isn't of themselves. To the contrary the scenario you are coming up with via conflated Scripture is eisegeting into texts things that are not there making salvation dependent upon man doing something to earn eternal life. Sir, you are misunderstanding and misusing texts to arrive at your conclusions.
You need to differentiate between texts that describe believers with those that prescribe salvation. "Repent and believe the Gospel" (Mark 1:15) would be one that shows the latter. Yet no person without God can do either of these, they are both granted by God and bring the elect into a dilemma which ultimately brings them to call out to God for mercy, repentance, faith, salvation.
Lastly, Matthew 6 isn't teaching what a person needs to do to get into heaven, it is describing a believer, that believers forgive others because they have been forgiven. Those who are unforgiving have not really experienced conversion or forgiveness, but at the same time even those converted will at times struggle with forgiving others and may hold onto that grudge! In such a case it doesn't mean that now God will cast them into hell, it means their Father can also hold their sins against them which has nothing to do with eternal salvation.
Apparently you did. It's interesting how you continue to quote the same passages of scripture that other works salvationists quote (including Roman Catholics and Mormons) in an effort to try and prove that faith in Christ alone (Romans 3:22-28; 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) is insufficient to save. Other favorite verses of works-salvationists are Romans 2:6-10; James 2:24; Philippians 2:12; Hebrews 5:9 etc..
No, Jesus was not teaching salvation by works and before showing him the way to life, Jesus wanted to impress on the rich young man both the high standard required by God and the absolute futility of seeking salvation based on his own merit. This should have elicited a response about the impossibility of perfectly keeping the law, but instead the young man confidently (and self righteously) declared that he qualified for heaven under those terms (vs. 20).
Obedience is works and we are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). Are you trusting in CHRIST ALONE for salvation or are you ALSO trusting in your obedience/works for salvation?
We are to make disciples, baptize new converts and teach them to obey everything that Jesus has commanded BECAUSE they are saved and not to become saved. It sounds to me like you are putting the cart before the horse.
These many people (works-salvationists) in Matthew 7:22 said 'Lord, Lord' and believed they were doing what Jesus said, but it turns out they were deceived and were obviously trusting in their works for salvation, yet Jesus NEVER knew them (vs. 23).
The comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not the works; rather, life in faith is the source of the works.
The one who is continuously (Greek present tense) sowing to his own corrupt, sinful nature which is opposed to God and unrenewed by the Holy Spirit shall of the flesh reap corruption. Our life here is sowing of one kind or another. But he who sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap everlasting life. In opposition to corruption, eternal life is produced by the Holy Spirit in those who put their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ for salvation.
No, Jesus was not teaching salvation by works and before showing him the way to life, Jesus wanted to impress on the rich young man both the high standard required by God and the absolute futility of seeking salvation based on his own merit. This should have elicited a response about the impossibility of perfectly keeping the law, but instead the young man confidently (and self righteously) declared that he qualified for heaven under those terms (vs. 20).
Obedience is works and we are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). Are you trusting in CHRIST ALONE for salvation or are you ALSO trusting in your obedience/works for salvation?
We are to make disciples, baptize new converts and teach them to obey everything that Jesus has commanded BECAUSE they are saved and not to become saved. It sounds to me like you are putting the cart before the horse.
These many people (works-salvationists) in Matthew 7:22 said 'Lord, Lord' and believed they were doing what Jesus said, but it turns out they were deceived and were obviously trusting in their works for salvation, yet Jesus NEVER knew them (vs. 23).
The comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not the works; rather, life in faith is the source of the works.
The one who is continuously (Greek present tense) sowing to his own corrupt, sinful nature which is opposed to God and unrenewed by the Holy Spirit shall of the flesh reap corruption. Our life here is sowing of one kind or another. But he who sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap everlasting life. In opposition to corruption, eternal life is produced by the Holy Spirit in those who put their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ for salvation.
Is it TRUSTING IN JESUS to consider Him as FALSE for teaching that “IF YOU WANT TO ENTER LIFE, OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS (matthew 19:17) and “IF YOU LOVE ME YOU WILL OBEY WHAT I COMMAND.(john 14:15)
….That Jesus is FALSE for being the author of eternal salvation for all who obey Him.( hebrews 5:7-10)?
Is it trusting in Jesus whenever you reject the Word of God (john 1:1-3 & 14, revelations 19:13, hebrews 4::12-13, 2timothy 3:15-17) His teachings, instructions and commands that does not agree with your manmade doctrine?
Originally Posted by ElAmor
So tell me who is FALSE?
Matthew 19:16-26 Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.” “Which ones?” the man inquired. Jesus replied, “‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’” “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?” Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth. Then Jesus said to his disciples, “I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?” Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
….That Jesus is FALSE for being the author of eternal salvation for all who obey Him.( hebrews 5:7-10)?
Is it trusting in Jesus whenever you reject the Word of God (john 1:1-3 & 14, revelations 19:13, hebrews 4::12-13, 2timothy 3:15-17) His teachings, instructions and commands that does not agree with your manmade doctrine?
Originally Posted by ElAmor
So tell me who is FALSE?
Matthew 19:16-26 Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.” “Which ones?” the man inquired. Jesus replied, “‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’” “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?” Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth. Then Jesus said to his disciples, “I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?” Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
New International Version 1984 1 Corinthians 2:1-16 When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, so that your faith might not rest on men’s wisdom, but on God’s power. Wisdom From the Spirit We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. No, we speak of God’s secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. However, as it is written: “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him”— but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man’s spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man’s judgment: “For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
Titus 1:15-16 to the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.
1 Timothy 6:3-5 If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.
Psalm 18:30 As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the Lord is flawless. He is a shield for all who take refuge in him.
Proverbs 30:6 do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.
Romans 3:3-4 What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God’s faithfulness? Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.”
Titus 1:15-16 to the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.
1 Timothy 6:3-5 If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.
Psalm 18:30 As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the Lord is flawless. He is a shield for all who take refuge in him.
Proverbs 30:6 do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.
Romans 3:3-4 What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God’s faithfulness? Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.”