Not By Works

[benhur]

I agree , but what Ben said was that if we forgive we will be granted entrance into heaven , if we dont , we wont , that is a works salvation

That is not quite what I meant. It is that if we have great faith in Jesus and we feel like we have recieved grace and we trust that we are saved, but cannot forgive men their trespasses against us, then we will not be given entrance into heaven.

You see it is a combination of having great faith and being able to forgive. And forgiving is just 1 of the things we must do in order for our faith to be made perfect, and our place is assured in the KOH.

The true gospel is faith +, otherwise if there is no +, your faith is dead. And vice-versa, if you have a lot of +'s, but no faith, your +'s are dead. It is a special combination of faith + that accomplishes 2 things:

1) You recieve the grace of Jesus Christ and you are allowed into heaven.

2) Needful people pray every day that God will help them and give them help and protection. These people you serve out of love and in the name of Jesus Christ are blessed with things that they need and are praying for. God needs all of us to do good works to help his chidren.

So good works help God take care of his children in this challenging world, and good works increases our faith in Jesus and gives us a dynamic, living faith that is necessary to enter into the KOH.

 

[benhur]

I was not referring to you, but hey, if the shoe fits?

I have heard that expression before: Wise is the man with Few Words.

So I have been trying to keep my posts as brief as possible.

Another wise expression, was told to me by an elderly Pastor, that I respect as a Spiritual Grandfather. There is a wisdom that that can be gained through Bible College, but that is not a Spiritual Grandfather. It is the wisdom from years, and years, of Living the Word. He saw me witnessing downtown when I was little more than a Spiritual Adolescent. I noticed him come around the corner and learn back against the wall of the building, just listening. Come Sunday, he was by the front door, and asked me to step into his office for a bit. I went in and he shut the door. And then he said he had some advise that would help me be a better witness'

He said, "Keep it simple stupid, you were going clean over that guy's head."

I smile, remembering that lesson. I am smiling as I type this.

I will smile and accept your premise, you explained it well.

 

[ljs]

That is not quite what I meant. It is that if we have great faith in Jesus and we feel like we have recieved grace and we trust that we are saved, but cannot forgive men their trespasses against us, then we will not be given entrance into heaven.

You see it is a combination of having great faith and being able to forgive. And forgiving is just 1 of the things we must do in order for our faith to be made perfect, and our place is assured in the KOH.

The true gospel is faith +, otherwise if there is no +, your faith is dead. And vice-versa, if you have a lot of +'s, but no faith, your +'s are dead. It is a special combination of faith + that accomplishes 2 things:

1) You recieve the grace of Jesus Christ and you are allowed into heaven.

2) Needful people pray every day that God will help them and give them help and protection. These people you serve out of love and in the name of Jesus Christ are blessed with things that they need and are praying for. God needs all of us to do good works to help his chidren.

So good works help God take care of his children in this challenging world, and good works increases our faith in Jesus and gives us a dynamic, living faith that is necessary to enter into the KOH.

I seriously cant believe what Im reading
No , Salvation is NOT Jesus + anything
Its putting our Faith COMPLETELY in what Christ has done for us , without anything added , period !!

If I can ask , Are you Catholic ben ?

 

[benhur]

No that is not the word of the lord. Thats yoyu pulling the word out and twisting it to suit your own gospel of self righteousness.

According to you. By your post. He can forgive everyone and get to heaven, evn though he was a liar and a thief and other things you did not know of because you can not see.

You forgive BECAUSE you have been forgiven. Not so you can earn eternal life.

You need to show me how I am twisting Matthew 6:14-15 to meet my agenda. Please show me how I did this.

You know very well that I would not say that a person only needs to forgive and then you can be in the KOH, even though you are a liar and a thief. If it came across that way, believe me now, I did not mean that.

What I meant to say is: a person can say that they are full of faith and grace and trust in the Lord Jesus all they want, but if they do not forgive, God will not forgive them. That is what Matthew 6 is saying, not me, but the Lord Jesus Christ. You can come up with the end result of not being forgiven of you sins by God. Do you want try to twist that saying or test or resist that saying? I would not.

Aren't you the one that said (in essence) that you do not believe that saying of Jesus. Will you explain that to us also?

 

[mailmandan]

Salvation is NOT Jesus + anything
Its putting our Faith COMPLETELY in what Christ has done for us, without anything added, period !!

Amen! Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. Salvation is putting our faith (belief, trust, reliance) exclusively in what Jesus has done.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You need to show me how I am twisting Matthew 6:14-15 to meet my agenda. Please show me how I did this.

You know very well that I would not say that a person only needs to forgive and then you can be in the KOH, even though you are a liar and a thief. If it came across that way, believe me now, I did not mean that.

What I meant to say is: a person can say that they are full of faith and grace and trust in the Lord Jesus all they want, but if they do not forgive, God will not forgive them. That is what Matthew 6 is saying, not me, but the Lord Jesus Christ. You can come up with the end result of not being forgiven of you sins by God. Do you want try to twist that saying or test or resist that saying? I would not.

Aren't you the one that said (in essence) that you do not believe that saying of Jesus. Will you explain that to us also?

A person can forgive everyone who ever did somethign against him, it does not mean he will get to heaven. Thats your first flaw.

(Personally I believe Christ is the only one who ever fulfilled this.so the point is mute)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I seriously cant believe what Im reading
No , Salvation is NOT Jesus + anything
Its putting our Faith COMPLETELY in what Christ has done for us , without anything added , period !!

If I can ask , Are you Catholic ben ?

Pride, Legalism, Religion.

We saw it in the pharisees. We see it in the church. 4000 years, and men are still making the same mistakes even after God giving us the word to show us how a mistake it is to trust in these things. People still fall for it.

One of satans greatest victories.

 

[Ariel82]

You don't forgive....God chastens you and you get some consquences of your sins....only NOT eternal death...we get eternal life as a free gift from God...not based on if we do or don't forgive.

If we don't forgive....we get chastenment....not casted out of the family.

 

[mailmandan]

You don't forgive....God chastens you and you get some consquences of your sins....only NOT eternal death...we get eternal life as a free gift from God...not based on if we do or don't forgive.

If we don't forgive....we get chastenment....not casted out of the family.

Question: "If I do not forgive others, does that mean my sins are not forgiven? What does Matthew 6:14-15 mean?" - https://www.gotquestions.org/forgive-forgiven.html

Answer: Matthew 6 does not teach that our eternal destiny is based on our forgiving other people; however, it does teach that our relationship with God will be damaged if we refuse to pardon those who have offended us. The Bible is clear that God pardons sin by His grace based on Christ’s work on the cross alone, not on man’s actions. Our right standing before Him is established on one thing only—the finished work of Christ (John 3:16; 1 John 2:2; 1 John 4:10). The penalty for the sin that is rightly ours is paid by Christ, and we obtain it by grace through faith, not by any righteous deeds of our own (Ephesians 2:8-9). No one will be able to stand before God demanding that his sins be forgotten simply because he has forgiven others. Only when we are born again and given a new life through God’s Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ are our sins forgiven. Therefore, Jesus is not referring to God’s initial act of forgiveness (reconciliation) that we experienced when we first believed the Gospel.

What He is referring to is the day-to-day cleansing we obtain when we confess our sins in order to restore fellowship with our heavenly Father—the fellowship which is interrupted by the daily tarnishing of sin that affects us all. This is not the wholesale cleansing from sin that comes with salvation by grace through faith, but is more like the foot-washing Jesus describes in John 13:10. The “whole body is clean,” He told the disciples, but their feet were dirty from their walking in the world. Forgiveness in this sense is what God threatens to withhold from Christians who refuse to forgive others.

In Matthew 6 Jesus is teaching disciples how to pray and in doing so outlines how we are restored into intimacy with God whenever we have displeased Him. In fact, Jesus instructs us to build into our prayers a request for God to forgive us in the same way that we have forgiven others who have harmed us (Matthew 6:12). If there are those we have not forgiven when we ourselves pray for forgiveness, then practically speaking we are asking God not to restore a right relationship with us after we sin. To emphasize the importance of restoring broken relationships with our brothers and sisters, Jesus states that asking for God’s forgiveness for one’s own sins, all the while withholding forgiveness from someone else, is not only bizarre but hypocritical. We cannot possibly walk with God in true fellowship if we refuse to forgive others.

To be sure, an unforgiving spirit is a serious sin and should be confessed to God. If we have unforgiveness in our hearts against someone else, then we are acting in a way that is not pleasing to God, making our prayers and a proper living relationship with Him difficult. God will not hear our prayers unless we also show ourselves ready to grant forgiveness. If we are harder than iron in this regard, Christ’s exhortation ought to soften us.

A second biblically plausible interpretation of Matthew 6:14-15 is that it is saying anyone who refuses to forgive others is demonstrating that he has not truly received Christ's forgiveness himself. Any sin committed against us, no matter how terrible, is trivial in comparison to our sins against God. If God has forgiven us of so much, how could we refuse to forgive others of so "little"? Matthew 6:14-15, according to this view, proclaims that anyone who harbors unforgiveness against others has not truly experienced God's forgiveness. Both interpretations strongly deny that salvation is dependent on our forgiving others. Whether Matthew 6:14-15 is speaking of "relational forgiveness," or whether it is a declaration that unforgiveness is the mark of an unbeliever, the core truth is the same. We should forgive others because God, through Christ, has forgiven us (Ephesians 4:32). It is wrong for someone who has truly experienced God's forgiveness to refuse to grant forgiveness to others.

I would see continued unforgiveness as the mark of an unbeliever and authentic forgiveness as the mark of a true believer. We should forgive others because God, through Christ, has forgiven us (Ephesians 4:32). It is inconceivable that someone who has truly experienced God's forgiveness could ultimately and permanently refuse to grant forgiveness to others.

 

[benhur]

He does nto understand, We forgive because we have been forgiven, We love because we have been loved. It all is a RESULT of salvation. Not how we get saved.

Thats why the word says those who have eternal life are those who do his commanbds. Who are those who do his commands? Non believers? Lawyers tryign to earn salvation by owrks? Religious people tryingn to earn Gods love? Or those who experienced Gods mercy love and forgiveness, ands given the power of God to love others.

According to scripture. It is the last group.

The others can act like they were obedient, But like the pharisees, it is all on trhe outside. Inside there is no cleanliness, because the inside has not been washed wiht the pure water of God.

I believe all men are born with an innate ability to love. That is part of our make-up, and yes it was given to us by God.

I also believe that when one believes in Jesus and has the HS, that innate love is intesified so good Christians can love even those that are our enemy.

 

[Ariel82]

I believe God's agape love is not like human innate ability to love.

What the world calls love is selfish and self centered and not really love at all.

It's all about giving only to receive.

Like the "law of karma" many religions preach, even some people who claim to be Christian preach.

Even the apostles fell for the lie.it's shown when they asked Jesus "who sinned that this man was born blind, him or his parents?"

 

[dcontroversal]

Is it TRUSTING IN JESUS to consider Him as FALSE for teaching that “IF YOU WANT TO ENTER LIFE, OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS (matthew 19:17) and “IF YOU LOVE ME YOU WILL OBEY WHAT I COMMAND.(john 14:15)

….That Jesus is FALSE for being the author of eternal salvation for all who obey Him.( hebrews 5:7-10)?

Is it trusting in Jesus whenever you reject the Word of God (john 1:1-3 & 14, revelations 19:13, hebrews 4::12-13, 2timothy 3:15-17) His teachings, instructions and commands that does not agree with your manmade doctrine?


Originally Posted by ElAmor

So tell me who is FALSE?

Matthew 19:16-26 Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.” “Which ones?” the man inquired. Jesus replied, “‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’” “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?” Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth. Then Jesus said to his disciples, “I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?” Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Keep ignoring context, the timing of when that was said and all the verses that state, prove, alleviate law keeping by any man to obtain eternal salvation....that which deems guilt will NEVER SAVE OR JUSTIFY BEFORE GOD!

 

[dcontroversal]

Maybe after you wake up, you can answer my questions.

Highly unlikely........more of the same accusatory, out of context drivel!

 

[dcontroversal]

Does ElAmor leave his computer on 24/7 and remain on the "Not By Works" thread? It seems like every time I log onto CC and come to this thread (regardless of what time of day or night it is), I see that ElAmor is browsing this thread.

I have answered him more than once and am fairly confident that he was gonna leave the thread......maybe in his mind this embellishes his works and gives him another 25 points in hopes of makig heaven?

 

[dcontroversal]

Lol Elvis has left the building.

He is in front of the Rootyhill RSL ....hahahha

 

[dcontroversal]

I seriously cant believe what Im reading
No , Salvation is NOT Jesus + anything
Its putting our Faith COMPLETELY in what Christ has done for us , without anything added , period !!

If I can ask , Are you Catholic ben ?

Amen.....not to mention he has been playing that 2 of Spades card as an Ace in the hole for several weeks now........

 

[dcontroversal]

Amen! Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. Salvation is putting our faith (belief, trust, reliance) exclusively in what Jesus has done.

Amen......the workers for, law keepers and sinless perfectionists version of salvation is like a vitamin supplement store where you embellish "yo" workouts with protein powder, vitamins b6, 3, 12 and a shot of oxishred just to get that extra boost over the finish line......not!

 

[benhur]

First, you're conflating a couple of texts...Matthew 6:15, Matthew 25:21 &c. That's a pretty serious mistake on your part, you're making the former the latter when it is not. Hopefully you're at least honest enough to admit this, and that you're making doctrine off of that error.

Are you sure 'conflate' is the word you want to use? Conflate means to 'merge'. I have not merged these 2 scriptures. So I am not sure what you are telling me is my serious mistake? So I'm not sure what I am supposed to admit to. Maybe you can show me how I merged Matthew 6:14-15 with Matthew 25:21? And therefore I cannot admit that I am twisting scripture.

The word of the Lord in Matthew 6:14-15 is a straight forward warning to forgive men their trespasses against you or your Father will not forgive your trespasses against Him. Straight forward, no twist. If you think I twisted the scripture, tell me how I did that? The application of this warning is given in the parable of the merciful king in Matthew 18:23-15. Here the king (Jesus) gives the major debtor (us) his free gift of grace (forgave him his sins and saved him in the KOH). Until the king learned that the major debtor did not forgive a minor debtor, but cast him into prison. When the mercifil king heard this he summoned the major debtor to come before him, and took away his free gift and cast him into prison.
Then Jesus says: So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

So if anyone is twisting, it is not the text, and it is not me. It is just too straight forward to have to twist it to meet an agenda.

just because a child of God holds a grudge and does not forgive it doesn't mean they are lost. You're reading way too much into the text.

He is not lost completely. He does have a solution. That solution is to repent of his unforgiving heart. If he does this his sin will be gone forever. If he does not, then his sin will remain and he will not be forgiven by our Father. Just as simple as that.
IOW a person can say they are full of faith and loves Jesus and trusts Jesus, but unless he can forgive and other things that Jesus tells us to do, his faith is dead, or he never was saved in the first place. I am not reading anything into the text. It is too straight forward.

To the contrary the scenario you are coming up with via conflated Scripture is eisegeting into texts things that are not there making salvation dependent upon man doing something to earn eternal life. Sir, you are misunderstanding and misusing texts to arrive at your conclusions.

conflatede scripture is eisegeting into tests thatngs that are not there. Not sure what you just said, except when the text says forgive or I will not forgive, I would be willing to look at what that means straight on and figure our how to forgive, even though I think I am saved (in past tense). IOW I would not try to convince myself that I saved, therefore I can disregard what Jesus said.

You offer up a good question, that is, where does by grace we are saved not of works fit in the above? It fits because no person is saved by works, all are saved by grace, and it isn't of themselves.

The question still stands. All you did was say: "It fits because no person is saved by works, all are save by grace". But do not forget or ignore that forgiveness is a work, a good work, in fact Jesus says it is a neccesary work in order for Father to forgive us. Remember if you are not forgiven of your sins, you will not be in heaven. So I will say that grace trumps forgiveness problems when one actually forgives or repents of unforgiveness. If a person is beligerent and will not forgive and will not repent, then grace cannot trump unforgiveness and unrepentance according to the sayings of Jesus.

 

[benhur]

I seriously cant believe what Im reading
No , Salvation is NOT Jesus + anything
Its putting our Faith COMPLETELY in what Christ has done for us , without anything added , period !!

If I can ask , Are you Catholic ben ?

I believe in a combination of what Christ has done for me, and what I am willing to do for him.

For instance: Read this scripure and tell me how it fits into the grace are we saved, not of works, lest we boast scenerio (by the way, I believe too)
John 6:54 King James Version (KJV)

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

So now, we know that his flesh = the bread, and his blood = the wine in our sacrament services.

But if a man refuses to partake of the sacrament because they think it is some kind of a useless work, will Jesus give them eternal life with him and God? According to the words of Jesus, no is the correct answer. Any objections?

 

[benhur]

Amen......the workers for, law keepers and sinless perfectionists version of salvation is like a vitamin supplement store where you embellish "yo" workouts with protein powder, vitamins b6, 3, 12 and a shot of oxishred just to get that extra boost over the finish line......not!

Are you going to be willing to do a good work outined in John 6:54?