Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,477
13,421
113
58
The Bible is quite clear on the issue. We are saved by grace (free gift) through faith on Jesus so no one can boast. This faith will then produce works. Works are required to prove faith is not dead since the Bible states faith without works is dead.
Yes, James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That's like saying a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree and the fruit is the source of life in the tree.

James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
decon,

Is this scripture not about salvation?

Hebrews 5:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
what part of Gods people DO OBEY him do you not comprehend?

What part of he who sins has never seen God or Known him do you not understand

What part of those born of God can not live in sin do you not comprehend?

is it that hard?
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
<><.t.><>

Here is Luther's method of interpretation:



In other words, you cannot use an interpretation of JAMES, when it contradicts the Gospels, or even when it contradicts {as I pointed out} the writings of Paul.




Now that Lectures in number 4. was given by MARTIN LUTHER HIMSELF. He concludes to use a quote from JAMES to justify Obedience is a FALSE DOCTRINE. You are SAVED FIRST, and by the FRUIT, you can tell the TREE. A good tree, will eventually produce good fruit. Your WORKS DO NOT SAVE YOU, GOD DOES. It will produce good fruit, if the Seed is good.

It cannot be the other way around.


John 14:15 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] "If you love Me {<- There is SALVATION - the Seed.},
you will keep My commandments.
{<- There is the fruit you will bear.}


That is exactly what MARTIN LUTHER was talking about.
Do you think that is wise to suggest that part of the bible is 'false doctrine'? This is the first time that someone has suggested that James preached false doctrine. Are you willing to stand behind what Martin says?
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
So who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? I've heard many works-salvationists (including Roman Catholics and Mormons) use this verse to try and support salvation by works. Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by loving one another and practicing righteousness and not sin (John 13:34: 1 John 2:3; 3:9,10). In either sense, only believers obey Him.

Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so-called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation based on their works. So in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.
For sure, unbelievers do not obey him, you are right. So it is true that those who do not obey him are unbelievers?
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,262
113
Yes, James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That's like saying a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree and the fruit is the source of life in the tree.

James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.
Hi Mailmandan, great post. Endoscopy wants to sneak in his works as proof of our salvation, not true. Once you add works to Grace it is no longer grace but works, you cannot have it both ways. Thank you for explaining James2:14-18.

Another issue I have with worker's plus grace is, they practice a "merit based religion." If they have enough good works they will be able to tip the "scales" enough so that God will allow them entrance into heaven. Correct me if I'm wrong please but I seem to remember you saying that you were raised in the Catholic Faith. My dads entire family was Catholic until they moved from Chicago to Los Angeles after WWII, and then my dad by himself became an atheist.

No one deserves heaven but Jesus Christ paid the price for Christian's to live with God in heaven forever. If I do not believe that I will ever be good enough to enter heaven doesn't that mean I must produce "works" to pad the entrance fee, so to speak. I could be wrong of course......:)
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,262
113
No one deserves heaven but Jesus Christ paid the price for Christian's to live with God in heaven forever. If I do not believe that I will ever be good enough to enter heaven doesn't that mean I must produce "works" to pad the entrance fee, so to speak. I could be wrong of course......:)
The red bolded should have read "If I believe that I will never be good enough."
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
Correct direct answer to my direct question would be, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved..” (Acts 16:31)
So Jesus asks why I should be let into heaven? I answer: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved".

Then Jesus says: "did you have faith in me"? and I say: No, Acts 16:31 says nothing of faith.
Then Jesus says: "did you love me"? and I say: No, Acts 16:31 says nothing of love.
Then Jesus says: "did you trust in me"? and I say: No, Acts 16:31 only says I have to believe? It says nothing about trusting in you.
Then Jesus says: "did you obey my words"? and I say: No, Acts 16:31 only says I have to believe, it says nothing of about obeying your words.

Then Jesus says, is Acts 16:31 the only scripture you read in the whole bible. And I say, yes, I was told that is all that was needed to be saved, so I cut that scripture out of the bible and taped it up in important places in my house and my car and my office, and I have believed since April 5, 1962.

Then Jesus says, what did you do with the rest of the bible? And I said, I threw the rest away, because I was told that Acts 16:31 was all I needed to be saved and so I thought all the rest was confusing, so I threw it away except for Acts 16:31.

Was this person let into heaven?
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
You can hammer your foolish self to death on James2:17 and neglect the rest of the entire bible that say's we are "Saved by Grace and "Not by Works", lest any man shall boast. Ehp2:8,9. Every stroke of Noah's hammer was an act of God's Grace. You workers for salvation need to get on the boat and leave your foolish thinking behind.

I can see the faces of the people who were left behind when the doors of the ark closed, "Wait what happened, we want to go too." and there lain down in front of them is that little left over piece of wood to remind them of God's Grace, what a pity.

Silly person, we do not stand on James 2:17 alone. Do you stand on Acts 16:31 alone?
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
Yep these screws look true and trust worthy to me. All of this informal arguing going on about James Ch2 is about their puffed up pride. Yes Jesus Saves but I need to finish the work or I will lose my eternal salvation which is false. Until the Hoy Spirit reveals the truth supernaturally to them they will continue on in their unbelief. Jesus Save's eternally, (forever).
Why is it always about 'puffed up pride' when we use a scripture to support our position. (James, Chapter 2)

Why is it always the 'pure gospel' when you use a scripture to support your position? (Acts 16:31)

We are both good Christians, using the same bible. I believe in both James 2 and Acts 16:31.

It becomes problematic if you believe that James taught false doctrine and it ended up in the bible.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,262
113
Silly person, we do not stand on James 2:17 alone. Do you stand on Acts 16:31 alone?
You add works James2:17 plus grace, the rest of the bible. You believe in grace plus works and I'm too tired to go round and round with you. If you add works to grace you have fallen from grace but go ahead and continue on with your merit based religion.

And all I said was neglect parts of the bible, you are speaking falsely of me.
 
Last edited:

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,262
113
Why is it always about 'puffed up pride' when we use a scripture to support our position. (James, Chapter 2)

Why is it always the 'pure gospel' when you use a scripture to support your position? (Acts 16:31)

We are both good Christians, using the same bible. I believe in both James 2 and Acts 16:31.

It becomes problematic if you believe that James taught false doctrine and it ended up in the bible.
Because your eternal destination is based on, "Grace plus Merit" You cannot "Merit" eternal salvation. James did not teach a false doctrine rather people misinterpret the meaning of James2:17 just as Mailmandan and many others have pointed out. And yes we are both Christians I will agree with you there...:)
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
Leadership? Can you read and or understand plain English? Who said anything about leadership....? and no, the word circular meant exactly that and it is not about salvation....wake up man!
Ok, I give up. If Jesus was not talking to the people of the church of Ephesus and he was not talking to the leadership of the church of Ephesus, then who was he talking to when he said, if you repent not I will remove.....?

I have asked you several times to prove circular logic, but all you keep saying is can't you read plain Engish, it is circular.
So stop the deflection just for enough time to prove my circularity, if you can? I wait to see how I was 'circular'.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
The always hidden agenda of workers for salvation is that they will say "see", without Grace plus Works you will lose your salvation. And they will always prop up OSAS as a starting point for their faulty gospel. If you boil the cabbage down this is what is always behind their argument, "see" you can lose your "eternal salvation", it is the same across the board.

Is the eternal security of the believer found in the Holy Bible, yes it is, is the eternal security of the believer taught from the pulpit throughout mainstream Christianity around the world, yes it is. Will the Grace plus Works people ever understand that Christian's are saved unto good works, but we are not saved by our good works; Saved unto good works, not by them.

Will worker's for, ever see the light, highly doubtful, they love boasting about how great they are. If you "take away boasting" of their works, they may actually have to fall prostrate before God and show a little humility as did Jonah. Most worker's for, just plain ol' don't believe they have value enough for God to let them into heaven, hence they must add their wonderful works to pad the entry fee. However, "Jesus paid it all, all to Him we owe", simple gospel.

"Salvation comes from the LORD." Jonah2:9
There you go again, "boasting about how great they are". Can't I disagree with your doctrine without being boastful? When was any time that you have heard me boast about how great I am because I do so many wonderful works, and you aught to follow me because I am the perfect example of what a good Christian aught to do to be saved?

Show me the post that I said these kinds of things. If you cannot find such a post, then please give me a break from your usual attack on Christians that believe like me. Thank you.

If you are saved unto good works, and you do not do those good works then you will not go into heaven. IOW no OSAS.
 
Last edited:

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
mailmandan,

James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.
That is exactly what James is saying. Thank you. If your faith is not accompanied by evidential works, your faith is dead or your faith is not authentic faith. That is exactly what I am saying.

It translates also to OSAS is not a secure place to be. There are millions of Christians who believe they are saved, because they had an experience when they came to the front of the church and confessed Jesus was their Lord. And the minister proclaimed loud and clear that they were now saved. So they go through their whole life thinking they are saved, but get to the pearly gates and Jesus says, I never knew you.

What a shock, and they ask why, and he says,

Matthew 25:42-46 King James Version (KJV)

I was hungry and you gave me no meat.
I was thirsty and you gave me no drink.
I was a stranger and you took me not in.
I was naked and you clothed me not.
I was sick and in prison and you visited me not.

And then you will say: when did I not do these for you, I did not see you or I certainly would have helped you.

And then Jesus will say: Since you did not do it to one of the least of these, my children, you did it not do it unto me.

What a shock, their faith was dead, or they did not have authentic faith in the beginning and they didn't even know, because they were never taught such doctrine.
 
Last edited:
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
mailmandan,



That is exactly what James is saying. Thank you. If your faith is not accompanied by evidential works, your faith is dead or your faith is not authentic faith. That is exactly what I am saying.

It translates also to OSAS is not a secure place to be.
james in no way is saying

"until you have works you are not saved"

or "once you are made new and kept by the power of God you can lose salvation"


you have got to be kidding me....


also those He NEVER knew

were NEVER saved

geeez man

i have yet to see an ounce of sound teaching from you

just the same twisting of the gospel

and rejection of Gods grace

over and over
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(WILL OF HIS FATHER)
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(MEN BOASTING OF WORKS)
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
(SINS NOT COVERED BY HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS.... HE NEVER KNEW THEM)


_________

will of the Father

john 6

27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
 
Sep 6, 2014
7,034
5,435
113
John 6:54 King James Version (KJV)

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

This scripture corresponse perfectly with the following scriptures:

Matthew 26:26-28 King James Version (KJV)
26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples,
and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.


Communion or Sacrament was given to us as a commandment by Jesus to remember what Jesus has done for us. It is through this communion or Sacrament that we metaphorically partake of his body and his blood. It is a perfect doctrine.

The Catholics went overboard and started to tell us that during the Sacrament the bread and wine actually turn into the body and blood of Jesus. That of course is out of line.
Poor comprehension of God's Word promoted as keen insight you say? LOL
John 6:54 is about faith in Christ (the Lamb of God) not the Lord's supper.
The Gospel of John does not even record the last supper.

Partaking of bread and wine in remembrance of Christ and in doing so, showing His death, is biblical. To teach others that Christ is literally (or metophorically) in physical bread and wine and that by eating and drinking that bread and wine the partaker will attain salvation is not biblical.

Partaking in the Lord's supper cannot save. It is an outward display of faith that is done in remembrance of Christ. It has no power to save. If your church is promoting recieving salvation through participating in the Lord's supper then your church and any other church doing this is performing a vain ritual and teaching a lie.


John 1:29

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Hebrews 9:25-28

Nor yet that he should offer himself often
, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

1 Peter 1:18-21
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Romans 3:21-26
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(WILL OF HIS FATHER)
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(MEN BOASTING OF WORKS)
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
(SINS NOT COVERED BY HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS.... HE NEVER KNEW THEM)


_________

will of the Father

john 6

27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
romans 9

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


Romans 10
10 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
 
Dec 4, 2017
906
35
0
mailmandan,



That is exactly what James is saying. Thank you. If your faith is not accompanied by evidential works, your faith is dead or your faith is not authentic faith. That is exactly what I am saying.

It translates also to OSAS is not a secure place to be. There are millions of Christians who believe they are saved, because they had an experience when they came to the front of the church and confessed Jesus was their Lord. And the minister proclaimed loud and clear that they were now saved. So they go through their whole life thinking they are saved, but get to the pearly gates and Jesus says, I never knew you.

What a shock, and they ask why, and he says,

Matthew 25:42-46 King James Version (KJV)

I was hungry and you gave me no meat.
I was thirsty and you gave me no drink.
I was a stranger and you took me not in.
I was naked and you clothed me not.
I was sick and in prison and you visited me not.

And then you will say: when did I not do these for you, I did not see you or I certainly would have helped you.

And then Jesus will say: Since you did not do it to one of the least of these, my children, you did it not do it unto me.

What a shock, their faith was dead, or they did not have authentic faith in the beginning and they didn't even know, because they were never taught such doctrine.
I believe it best to leave them to boast.
Leave it to the Judge of the quick and the dead to secure the increasing fold that is his Flock.
Every generation that have carried the yoke for thousands of yrs now will receive reward.
What a wonderful time its is now that we are now the ones who have such an Honor to Share in even more of a Witness.

A new generation is on the rise to give blessings to the poor.
 
Dec 4, 2017
906
35
0
Compare the full text of romans 10 to Devarim 30(deuteronomy


Blessed be the name

devarim 30
‘Who will go up into the sky for us, bring it to us and make us hear it, so that we can obey it?’ 13
Likewise, it isn’t beyond the sea(sh'ol), so that you need to ask,

‘Who will cross the sea(from death to life) for us, bring it to us and make us hear it, so that we can obey it?’
14

On the contrary, the Word is very close to you — in your mouth, even in your heart; therefore, you can do it!






Romans 10
Brothers, my heart’s deepest desire and my prayer to God for Isra’el is for their salvation; 2 for I can testify to their zeal for God. But it is not based on correct understanding; 3 for, since they are unaware of God’s way of making people righteous and instead seek to set up their own, they have not submitted themselves to God’s way of making people righteous. 4 For the goal at which the Torah aims is the Messiah, who offers righteousness to everyone who trusts.

5 For Moshe writes about the righteousness grounded in the Torah that the person who does these things will attain life through them.[a] 6 Moreover, the righteousness grounded in trusting says:

“Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend to heaven?’” —

that is, to bring the Messiah down — 7 or,

“‘Who will descend into Sh’ol?’” —

that is, to bring the Messiah up from the dead. 8 What, then, does it say?

“The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart.”[b]

that is, the word about trust which we proclaim, namely, 9 that if you acknowledge publicly with your mouth that Yeshua is Lord and trust in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be delivered. 10 For with the heart one goes on trusting and thus continues toward righteousness, while with the mouth one keeps on making public acknowledgement and thus continues toward deliverance. 11 For the passage quoted says that everyone who rests his trust on him will not be humiliated.[c] 12 That means that there is no difference between Jew and Gentile — Adonai is the same for everyone, rich toward everyone who calls on him, 13 since everyone who calls on the name of Adonai will be delivered.[d]
14 But how can they call on someone if they haven’t trusted in him? And how can they trust in someone if they haven’t heard about him? And how can they hear about someone if no one is proclaiming him? 15 And how can people proclaim him unless God sends them? — as the TaNaKh puts it,
“How beautiful are the feet of those announcing good news about good things!”[e]

16 The problem is that they haven’t all paid attention to the Good News and obeyed it. For Yesha‘yahu says,
Adonai, who has trusted what he has heard from us?”[f]

17 So trust comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through a word proclaimed about the Messiah.
18 “But, I say, isn’t it rather that they didn’t hear?” No, they did hear —
“Their voice has gone out throughout the whole world
and their words to the ends of the earth.”[g]


19 “But, I say, isn’t it rather that Isra’el didn’t understand?”

“I will provoke you to jealousy over a non-nation,
over a nation void of understanding I will make youangry.”[h]


20 Moreover, Yesha‘yahu boldly says,

“I was found by those who were not looking for me,
I became known to those who did not ask for me”;
[i]

21 but to Isra’el he says,

“All day long I held out my hands
to a people who kept disobeying and contradicting.”



[FONT=&quot]Yes!” he went on, “I tell you that there are some people standing here who will not experience death until they see the Kingdom of God come in a powerful way!”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2 Six days later,
Yeshua took Kefa, Ya‘akov and Yochanan
and led them up a high mountain privately. As they watched, he began to change form, 3 and his clothes became dazzlingly white, whiter than anyone in the world could possibly bleach them.
4 Then they saw
Eliyahu and Moshe speaking with Yeshua.
5 Kefa said to Yeshua, “It’s good that we’re here, Rabbi! Let’s put up three shelters — one for you, one for Moshe and one for Eliyahu.” 6 (He didn’t know what to say, they were so frightened.) 7 Then a cloud enveloped them; and a voice came out of the cloud, “This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him!” 8 Suddenly, when they looked around, they no longer saw anyone with them except Yeshua.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]9 As they came down the Mountain, he warned them not to tell anyone what they had seen until after the Son of Man had risen from the dead. 10 So they kept the matter to themselves; but they continued asking each other, “What is this ‘rising from the dead’?”
11 They also asked him,
“Why do the Torah-teachers say that Eliyahu has to come first?”
12 “Eliyahu will indeed come first,” he answered, “and he will restore everything. Nevertheless, why is it written in the TaNaKh that the Son of Man must suffer much and be rejected? 13 There’s more to it: I tell you that Eliyahu has come, and they did whatever they pleased to him, just as the TaNaKh says about him.”[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]14 When they got back to the talmidim, they saw a large crowd around them and some Torah-teachers arguing with them. 15 As soon as the crowd saw him, they were surprised and ran out to greet him. 16 He asked them,
“What’s the discussion about?”
17 One of the crowd gave him the answer: “Rabbi, I brought my son to you because he has an evil spirit in him that makes him unable to talk. 18 Whenever it seizes him, it throws him to the ground — he foams at the mouth, grinds his teeth and becomes stiff all over. I asked your talmidim to drive the spirit out, but they couldn’t do it.” 19
“People without any trust!”
he responded.
“How long will I be with you? How long must I put up with you? Bring him to me!”
20 They brought the boy to him; and as soon as the spirit saw him, it threw the boy into a convulsion. 21 Yeshua asked the boy’s father,
“How long has this been happening to him?”
“Ever since childhood,” he said; 22 “and it often tries to kill him by throwing him into the fire or into the water. But if you can do anything, have pity on us and help us!” 23 Yeshua said to him,
“What do you mean, ‘if you can’? Everything is possible to someone who has trust!”
24 Instantly the father of the child exclaimed, “I do trust — help my lack of trust!” 25 When Yeshua saw that the crowd was closing in on them, he rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it,
“You deaf and dumb spirit! I command you: come out of him, and never go back into him again!”
26 Shrieking and throwing the boy into a violent fit, it came out. The boy lay there like a corpse, so that most of the people said he was dead. 27 But Yeshua took him by the hand and raised him to his feet, and he stood up.
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]28 After Yeshua had gone indoors, his talmidim asked him privately, “Why couldn’t we drive it out?” 29 He said to them
“This is the kind of spirit that can be driven out only by prayer.”
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]30 After leaving that place, they went on through the Galil. Yeshua didn’t want anyone to know, 31 because he was teaching his talmidim. He told them,
“The Son of Man will be betrayed into the hands of men who will put him to death; but after he has been killed, three days later he will rise.”
32 But they didn’t understand what he meant, and they were afraid to ask him.
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]33 They arrived at K’far-Nachum. When Yeshua was inside the house, he asked them,
“What were you discussing as we were traveling?”
34 But they kept quiet; because on the way, they had been arguing with each other about who was the greatest. 35 He sat down, summoned the Twelve and said to them,
“If anyone wants to be first, he must make himself last of all and servant of all.” 36 He took a child and stood him among them. Then he put his arms around him and said to them, 37
“Whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me, and whoever welcomes me welcomes not me but the One who sent me.”
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]38 Yochanan said to him, “Rabbi, we saw a man expelling demons in your name; and because he wasn’t one of us, we told him to stop.” 39 But Yeshua said,
Reward
“Don’t stop him, because no one who works a miracle in my name will soon after be able to say something bad about me. 40 For whoever is not against us is for us. 41 Indeed, whoever gives you even a cup of water to drink because you come in the name of the Messiah — yes! I tell you that he will certainly not lose his reward.

The sea sh'ol [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]42“Whoever ensnares one of these little ones who trust me — it would be better for him to have a millstone hung around his neck and be thrown in the sea. 43 If your hand makes you sin, cut it off! Better that you should be maimed but obtain eternal life, rather than keep both hands and go to Gei-Hinnom, to unquenchable fire! 44 [a] 45 And if your foot makes you sin, cut it off! Better that you should be lame but obtain eternal life, rather than keep both feet and be thrown into Gei-Hinnom! 46 [b] 47 And if your eye makes you sin, pluck it out! Better that you should be one-eyed but enter the Kingdom of God, rather than keep both eyes and be thrown into Gei-Hinnom,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]48 where their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.[c]
[/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]49 Indeed, everyone is going to be salted with fire. 50 Salt is excellent, but if it loses its saltiness, how will you season it? So have salt in yourselves — that is, be at peace with each other.”[/FONT]
“‘Who will descend into Sh’ol?’” —