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You have no evidence that God created man, then killed many of them for sinning without giving them the definition of sin, yet you preach it anyway.
You have no evidence that God gave different Laws to Abraham, than He did to Abrahams Children,(With the exception of the Levitical Priesthood) but you preach it anyway.
Noah knew of Christ's creation of clean and unclean animals, this is evidence that God gave all mankind the same instructions.. Abraham knew of Passover, but many reject this as well.
Gen. 9:22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.
Evidence that Christ gave all people the same commandments, as it is written "God is no respecter of persons."
The Bible says Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever. You have no evidence that He didn't give all humans the same instructions.
8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
More evidence that Cain knew his actions were against the Christ.
Luke 11:49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:
50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.
52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.
This is evidence that Christ's Law was in the beginning.
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them,
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
So was this a different Jesus that talked to Abraham? Did He have different Words, different instructions? You have zero evidence that He did.
This is more evidence that the Christ gave His creation His Laws.
Heb. 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
This is more evidence that Christ prepared His creation with His Truth.
Matt 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
More evidence that Abel, Noah, and Abraham all strove to enter the same Kingdom.
Maybe your God has different standards for different people, But the Word who became Flesh doesn't. At least He says He doesn't and I believe Him.
I'm not prepared to ignore all these truths just to further some ancient religious traditions.
You have no evidence that God gave different Laws to Abraham, than He did to Abrahams Children,(With the exception of the Levitical Priesthood) but you preach it anyway.
Noah knew of Christ's creation of clean and unclean animals, this is evidence that God gave all mankind the same instructions.. Abraham knew of Passover, but many reject this as well.
Gen. 9:22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.
Evidence that Christ gave all people the same commandments, as it is written "God is no respecter of persons."
The Bible says Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever. You have no evidence that He didn't give all humans the same instructions.
8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
More evidence that Cain knew his actions were against the Christ.
Luke 11:49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:
50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.
52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.
This is evidence that Christ's Law was in the beginning.
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them,
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
So was this a different Jesus that talked to Abraham? Did He have different Words, different instructions? You have zero evidence that He did.
This is more evidence that the Christ gave His creation His Laws.
Heb. 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
This is more evidence that Christ prepared His creation with His Truth.
Matt 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
More evidence that Abel, Noah, and Abraham all strove to enter the same Kingdom.
Maybe your God has different standards for different people, But the Word who became Flesh doesn't. At least He says He doesn't and I believe Him.
I'm not prepared to ignore all these truths just to further some ancient religious traditions.
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;
Sin was imputed to Cain?
13 But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly.
24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.
Sin was imputed to these men.
I don't believe you understand what Paul is saying.
10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;
Sin was imputed to Cain?
13 But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly.
24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.
Sin was imputed to these men.
I don't believe you understand what Paul is saying.
A
Example of God changing laws....
Genesis 1
29And God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food. 30And to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food.” And it was so.
Genesis 1
29And God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food. 30And to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food.” And it was so.
A
Genesis 9
. 2The fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth and upon every bird of the heavens, upon everything that creeps on the ground and all the fish of the sea. Into your hand they are delivered. 3Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything. 4But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood. 5And for your lifeblood I will require a reckoning: from every beast I will require it and from man. From his fellow man I will require a reckoning for the life of man.
6“Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed,
for God made man in his own image.
. 2The fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth and upon every bird of the heavens, upon everything that creeps on the ground and all the fish of the sea. Into your hand they are delivered. 3Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything. 4But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood. 5And for your lifeblood I will require a reckoning: from every beast I will require it and from man. From his fellow man I will require a reckoning for the life of man.
6“Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed,
for God made man in his own image.
Show me in GENESIS 1 or 2, where God gave Adam the Law?
I know you cannot but give it your best shot....
You also have absolutely no explanation for this either:
Gal 3:19
"19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator."
You teach that the Law (Torah) was eternal, yet Paul explicitly teaches that the Law was ADDED.
How can that be?
If something is eternal it cannot be added???
Furthermore, why was it added?
"because of transgressions"!
But, again there is something wrong here!
If it was only added "because of transgressions", then, clearly, it could not have been given prior to the events in Genesis chapter 3 because there were no transgressions!
Sin ONLY entered in Genesis chapter 3!
But this passage clearly indicates that the Law (Torah), and all of it, is TEMPORARY, "It was added because of transgressions" and expired at this time, "till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made".
If, apart from the Torah, there is no sin and therefore no punishment, how was it that Adam and his wife were punished for sinning with the penalty of death?
Of course, for the unthinking Adventist, the answer is clear - Adam and his wife had the Law (Torah)!
Problem, of course is, the above text completely dispels the theory.
The Law was ONLY added "because of transgressions", and so clearly prior to the entry of sin in Genesis chapter 3 there was no need for the Law!
When was the Law added?
Scripture tells us that the Law was given to Moses on Mount Sinai, the details of which are recorded in mind-numbing detail from Exodus into the following three books.
This is incontrovertable!
How is it that Adam and his wife, and all others born since have been under the penalty of death for sins committed?
After all the Adventists among others claim that apart from the Law there cannot be sin!
Obviously one can only be guilty, before God anyway, to the extant that one understands one's transgression.
(This principle, albeit imperfectly, is found in most modern systems of jurisprudence, where individuals found not to understand that what they have done is a crime, cannot be punished as a criminal for their actions. People with severe mental impairment or severe psychiatric conditions are the most common scenarios where criminal guilt cannot be attributed.)
Nonetheless, according to Paul in Roman chapter 5 death reigned "from Adam to Moses"!
Rom 5:12-14
"12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. "
Paul also makes this extraordinary statement: "even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam"!
Why bother making the point that death came to those who had not sinned in the way the Moses had?
After all, no one could go near the Garden again, to partake "of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" Gen 2:17, now could they since according to Gen 3:24 cherubim were placed along with a flaming sword to guard the way to the tree!
The reason is self-evident: they did not commit the same sin that Adam had but they had sinned nonetheless despite the fact that there was no specific commandment such as the one given to Adam in Gen 2:17!
How could this be?
Lets look at Gen 3:22 "22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— "
After partaking of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, Adam and his wife had indeed gained knowledge of good and evil! This is EXACTLY the point that God Himself spells out in Gen 3:22.
The knowledge of good and evil means that one can indeed discern what is sin, and what is not, WITHOUT a specific legal code. To this day we humans are indwelt with this same knowledge, and because of it Paul could write this:
Rom 2:12-16
"12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel."
Think about this for a while: "For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law"
Clearly this is hopelessly and completely unjust unless one is indeed able, "to know good and evil"!
This knowledge of good and evil is not the Torah. Considering the situation in which this knowledge was obtained it is inconceivable that this was, in fact, the reception of the Torah!
In Gal 3:19 Paul says that the Law was temporary "[FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]till the Seed should come[/FONT][FONT="] to whom the promise was made[/FONT]".
What evidence is there that the Law has indeed been set aside?
Eph 2:14-18
"[FONT="]14 For He Himself is our peace, [/FONT][FONT="]who has made both one[/FONT][FONT="], and has broken down the [/FONT][FONT="]middle wall of separation[/FONT][FONT="], [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]15 [/FONT][FONT="]having abolished in His flesh the enmity[/FONT][FONT="], that is, t[/FONT][FONT="]he law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two[/FONT][FONT="], thus making peace, [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, [/FONT][FONT="]thereby putting to death the enmity[/FONT][FONT="]. [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.[/FONT]"
This piece of text looks complicated but actually it is not!
The "both" referred to several times starting in vs 14 are defined just prior in Gal 2:11-13.
Simply the "both" is the Jews (also referred to as the Circumcision in this passage) and the Gentiles (also referred to as the Uncircimcision in this passage).
Eph 2:14-18 describes the reconciliation of the Gentile and the Jew through the work of Jesus Christ on the cross. HOW this reconciliation is achieved is the key here!
vs 14 explains that He Himself (Jesus Christ) is our peace, having united the Jew and the Gentile, "[FONT="]has made both one[/FONT]", by breaking down, "[FONT="]the [/FONT][FONT="]middle wall of separation[/FONT]".
What is that "[FONT="]middle wall of separation[/FONT]"?
Paul describes it as "[FONT="]the enmity[/FONT]" and then goes on to define the enmity, "[FONT="]t[/FONT][FONT="]he law of commandments contained in ordinances[/FONT]" Gal 2:15
Peace is established, through the cross "[FONT="]putting to death the enmity[/FONT]". Gal 2:16
"[FONT="]the enmity[/FONT]" that is put to death is none other than "[FONT="]t[/FONT][FONT="]he law of commandments contained in ordinances[/FONT]"!
This is the Law, the Torah!
And Gal 2:15 makes it clear that is has been abolished!
Col 2:14, in a slightly different context says exactly the same thing: "14 [FONT="]having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.[/FONT]"
The "[FONT="]handwriting of requirements [/FONT]" is the Law.
It is described thus: "[FONT="]that was against us, which was contrary to us[/FONT]"!
Why is the Law against us?
It is not the fault of the Law, but its only consequence to us is to condemn us!
But, Col 2:14 then goes on to say this: "[FONT="]And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.[/FONT]"
In other words, the righteous requirements of the Law, the whole Law, and not just selected parts of the Law, have been taken care of through the crucifixion of Jesus Christ!
The requirements of the Law are abrogated by the institution of the New covenant through the crucifixion of Jesus Christ!
Eph 2:14-18 comes to exactly the same end point!
Of course, our Adventist friends have gone to extraordinary lengths to try and "prove" that this is not so!
This was the whole purpose of the thread!
Yet, every premise behind their ridiculous doctrines can be exposed.
The few that I have exposed here just shows that the entire Adventist system is nothing but a house of cards!
I know you cannot but give it your best shot....
You also have absolutely no explanation for this either:
Gal 3:19
"19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator."
You teach that the Law (Torah) was eternal, yet Paul explicitly teaches that the Law was ADDED.
How can that be?
If something is eternal it cannot be added???
Furthermore, why was it added?
"because of transgressions"!
But, again there is something wrong here!
If it was only added "because of transgressions", then, clearly, it could not have been given prior to the events in Genesis chapter 3 because there were no transgressions!
Sin ONLY entered in Genesis chapter 3!
But this passage clearly indicates that the Law (Torah), and all of it, is TEMPORARY, "It was added because of transgressions" and expired at this time, "till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made".
If, apart from the Torah, there is no sin and therefore no punishment, how was it that Adam and his wife were punished for sinning with the penalty of death?
Of course, for the unthinking Adventist, the answer is clear - Adam and his wife had the Law (Torah)!
Problem, of course is, the above text completely dispels the theory.
The Law was ONLY added "because of transgressions", and so clearly prior to the entry of sin in Genesis chapter 3 there was no need for the Law!
When was the Law added?
Scripture tells us that the Law was given to Moses on Mount Sinai, the details of which are recorded in mind-numbing detail from Exodus into the following three books.
This is incontrovertable!
How is it that Adam and his wife, and all others born since have been under the penalty of death for sins committed?
After all the Adventists among others claim that apart from the Law there cannot be sin!
Obviously one can only be guilty, before God anyway, to the extant that one understands one's transgression.
(This principle, albeit imperfectly, is found in most modern systems of jurisprudence, where individuals found not to understand that what they have done is a crime, cannot be punished as a criminal for their actions. People with severe mental impairment or severe psychiatric conditions are the most common scenarios where criminal guilt cannot be attributed.)
Nonetheless, according to Paul in Roman chapter 5 death reigned "from Adam to Moses"!
Rom 5:12-14
"12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. "
Paul also makes this extraordinary statement: "even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam"!
Why bother making the point that death came to those who had not sinned in the way the Moses had?
After all, no one could go near the Garden again, to partake "of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" Gen 2:17, now could they since according to Gen 3:24 cherubim were placed along with a flaming sword to guard the way to the tree!
The reason is self-evident: they did not commit the same sin that Adam had but they had sinned nonetheless despite the fact that there was no specific commandment such as the one given to Adam in Gen 2:17!
How could this be?
Lets look at Gen 3:22 "22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— "
After partaking of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, Adam and his wife had indeed gained knowledge of good and evil! This is EXACTLY the point that God Himself spells out in Gen 3:22.
The knowledge of good and evil means that one can indeed discern what is sin, and what is not, WITHOUT a specific legal code. To this day we humans are indwelt with this same knowledge, and because of it Paul could write this:
Rom 2:12-16
"12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel."
Think about this for a while: "For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law"
Clearly this is hopelessly and completely unjust unless one is indeed able, "to know good and evil"!
This knowledge of good and evil is not the Torah. Considering the situation in which this knowledge was obtained it is inconceivable that this was, in fact, the reception of the Torah!
In Gal 3:19 Paul says that the Law was temporary "[FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]till the Seed should come[/FONT][FONT="] to whom the promise was made[/FONT]".
What evidence is there that the Law has indeed been set aside?
Eph 2:14-18
"[FONT="]14 For He Himself is our peace, [/FONT][FONT="]who has made both one[/FONT][FONT="], and has broken down the [/FONT][FONT="]middle wall of separation[/FONT][FONT="], [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]15 [/FONT][FONT="]having abolished in His flesh the enmity[/FONT][FONT="], that is, t[/FONT][FONT="]he law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two[/FONT][FONT="], thus making peace, [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, [/FONT][FONT="]thereby putting to death the enmity[/FONT][FONT="]. [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.[/FONT]"
This piece of text looks complicated but actually it is not!
The "both" referred to several times starting in vs 14 are defined just prior in Gal 2:11-13.
Simply the "both" is the Jews (also referred to as the Circumcision in this passage) and the Gentiles (also referred to as the Uncircimcision in this passage).
Eph 2:14-18 describes the reconciliation of the Gentile and the Jew through the work of Jesus Christ on the cross. HOW this reconciliation is achieved is the key here!
vs 14 explains that He Himself (Jesus Christ) is our peace, having united the Jew and the Gentile, "[FONT="]has made both one[/FONT]", by breaking down, "[FONT="]the [/FONT][FONT="]middle wall of separation[/FONT]".
What is that "[FONT="]middle wall of separation[/FONT]"?
Paul describes it as "[FONT="]the enmity[/FONT]" and then goes on to define the enmity, "[FONT="]t[/FONT][FONT="]he law of commandments contained in ordinances[/FONT]" Gal 2:15
Peace is established, through the cross "[FONT="]putting to death the enmity[/FONT]". Gal 2:16
"[FONT="]the enmity[/FONT]" that is put to death is none other than "[FONT="]t[/FONT][FONT="]he law of commandments contained in ordinances[/FONT]"!
This is the Law, the Torah!
And Gal 2:15 makes it clear that is has been abolished!
Col 2:14, in a slightly different context says exactly the same thing: "14 [FONT="]having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.[/FONT]"
The "[FONT="]handwriting of requirements [/FONT]" is the Law.
It is described thus: "[FONT="]that was against us, which was contrary to us[/FONT]"!
Why is the Law against us?
It is not the fault of the Law, but its only consequence to us is to condemn us!
But, Col 2:14 then goes on to say this: "[FONT="]And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.[/FONT]"
In other words, the righteous requirements of the Law, the whole Law, and not just selected parts of the Law, have been taken care of through the crucifixion of Jesus Christ!
The requirements of the Law are abrogated by the institution of the New covenant through the crucifixion of Jesus Christ!
Eph 2:14-18 comes to exactly the same end point!
Of course, our Adventist friends have gone to extraordinary lengths to try and "prove" that this is not so!
This was the whole purpose of the thread!
Yet, every premise behind their ridiculous doctrines can be exposed.
The few that I have exposed here just shows that the entire Adventist system is nothing but a house of cards!
Show me in GENESIS 1 or 2, where God gave Adam the Law?
I know you cannot but give it your best shot....
You also have absolutely no explanation for this either:
Gal 3:19
"19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator."
You teach that the Law (Torah) was eternal, yet Paul explicitly teaches that the Law was ADDED.
How can that be?
If something is eternal it cannot be added???
Furthermore, why was it added?
"because of transgressions"!
But, again there is something wrong here!
If it was only added "because of transgressions", then, clearly, it could not have been given prior to the events in Genesis chapter 3 because there were no transgressions!
Sin ONLY entered in Genesis chapter 3!
But this passage clearly indicates that the Law (Torah), and all of it, is TEMPORARY, "It was added because of transgressions" and expired at this time, "till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made".
If, apart from the Torah, there is no sin and therefore no punishment, how was it that Adam and his wife were punished for sinning with the penalty of death?
Of course, for the unthinking Adventist, the answer is clear - Adam and his wife had the Law (Torah)!
Problem, of course is, the above text completely dispels the theory.
The Law was ONLY added "because of transgressions", and so clearly prior to the entry of sin in Genesis chapter 3 there was no need for the Law!
When was the Law added?
Scripture tells us that the Law was given to Moses on Mount Sinai, the details of which are recorded in mind-numbing detail from Exodus into the following three books.
This is incontrovertable!
How is it that Adam and his wife, and all others born since have been under the penalty of death for sins committed?
After all the Adventists among others claim that apart from the Law there cannot be sin!
Obviously one can only be guilty, before God anyway, to the extant that one understands one's transgression.
(This principle, albeit imperfectly, is found in most modern systems of jurisprudence, where individuals found not to understand that what they have done is a crime, cannot be punished as a criminal for their actions. People with severe mental impairment or severe psychiatric conditions are the most common scenarios where criminal guilt cannot be attributed.)
Nonetheless, according to Paul in Roman chapter 5 death reigned "from Adam to Moses"!
Rom 5:12-14
"12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. "
Paul also makes this extraordinary statement: "even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam"!
Why bother making the point that death came to those who had not sinned in the way the Moses had?
After all, no one could go near the Garden again, to partake "of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" Gen 2:17, now could they since according to Gen 3:24 cherubim were placed along with a flaming sword to guard the way to the tree!
The reason is self-evident: they did not commit the same sin that Adam had but they had sinned nonetheless despite the fact that there was no specific commandment such as the one given to Adam in Gen 2:17!
How could this be?
Lets look at Gen 3:22 "22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— "
After partaking of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, Adam and his wife had indeed gained knowledge of good and evil! This is EXACTLY the point that God Himself spells out in Gen 3:22.
The knowledge of good and evil means that one can indeed discern what is sin, and what is not, WITHOUT a specific legal code. To this day we humans are indwelt with this same knowledge, and because of it Paul could write this:
Rom 2:12-16
"12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel."
Think about this for a while: "For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law"
Clearly this is hopelessly and completely unjust unless one is indeed able, "to know good and evil"!
This knowledge of good and evil is not the Torah. Considering the situation in which this knowledge was obtained it is inconceivable that this was, in fact, the reception of the Torah!
In Gal 3:19 Paul says that the Law was temporary "till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made".
What evidence is there that the Law has indeed been set aside?
Eph 2:14-18
"14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father."
This piece of text looks complicated but actually it is not!
The "both" referred to several times starting in vs 14 are defined just prior in Eph 2:11-13.
Simply the "both" is the Jews (also referred to as the Circumcision in this passage) and the Gentiles (also referred to as the Uncircimcision in this passage).
Eph 2:14-18 describes the reconciliation of the Gentile and the Jew through the work of Jesus Christ on the cross. HOW this reconciliation is achieved is the key here!
vs 14 explains that He Himself (Jesus Christ) is our peace, having united the Jew and the Gentile, "has made both one", by breaking down, "the middle wall of separation".
What is that "middle wall of separation"?
Paul describes it as "the enmity" and then goes on to define the enmity, "the law of commandments contained in ordinances" Eph 2:15
Peace is established, through the cross "putting to death the enmity". Eph 2:16
"the enmity" that is put to death is none other than "the law of commandments contained in ordinances"!
This is the Law, the Torah!
And Eph 2:15 makes it clear that is has been abolished!
Col 2:14, in a slightly different context says exactly the same thing: "14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."
The "handwriting of requirements " is the Law.
It is described thus: "that was against us, which was contrary to us"!
Why is the Law against us?
It is not the fault of the Law, but its only consequence to us is to condemn us!
But, Col 2:14 then goes on to say this: "And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."
In other words, the righteous requirements of the Law, the whole Law, and not just selected parts of the Law, have been taken care of through the crucifixion of Jesus Christ!
The requirements of the Law are abrogated by the institution of the New covenant through the crucifixion of Jesus Christ!
Eph 2:14-18 comes to exactly the same end point!
Of course, our Adventist friends have gone to extraordinary lengths to try and "prove" that this is not so!
This was the whole purpose of the thread!
Yet, every premise behind their ridiculous doctrines can be exposed.
The few that I have exposed here just shows that the entire Adventist system is nothing but a house of cards!
I know you cannot but give it your best shot....
You also have absolutely no explanation for this either:
Gal 3:19
"19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator."
You teach that the Law (Torah) was eternal, yet Paul explicitly teaches that the Law was ADDED.
How can that be?
If something is eternal it cannot be added???
Furthermore, why was it added?
"because of transgressions"!
But, again there is something wrong here!
If it was only added "because of transgressions", then, clearly, it could not have been given prior to the events in Genesis chapter 3 because there were no transgressions!
Sin ONLY entered in Genesis chapter 3!
But this passage clearly indicates that the Law (Torah), and all of it, is TEMPORARY, "It was added because of transgressions" and expired at this time, "till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made".
If, apart from the Torah, there is no sin and therefore no punishment, how was it that Adam and his wife were punished for sinning with the penalty of death?
Of course, for the unthinking Adventist, the answer is clear - Adam and his wife had the Law (Torah)!
Problem, of course is, the above text completely dispels the theory.
The Law was ONLY added "because of transgressions", and so clearly prior to the entry of sin in Genesis chapter 3 there was no need for the Law!
When was the Law added?
Scripture tells us that the Law was given to Moses on Mount Sinai, the details of which are recorded in mind-numbing detail from Exodus into the following three books.
This is incontrovertable!
How is it that Adam and his wife, and all others born since have been under the penalty of death for sins committed?
After all the Adventists among others claim that apart from the Law there cannot be sin!
Obviously one can only be guilty, before God anyway, to the extant that one understands one's transgression.
(This principle, albeit imperfectly, is found in most modern systems of jurisprudence, where individuals found not to understand that what they have done is a crime, cannot be punished as a criminal for their actions. People with severe mental impairment or severe psychiatric conditions are the most common scenarios where criminal guilt cannot be attributed.)
Nonetheless, according to Paul in Roman chapter 5 death reigned "from Adam to Moses"!
Rom 5:12-14
"12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. "
Paul also makes this extraordinary statement: "even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam"!
Why bother making the point that death came to those who had not sinned in the way the Moses had?
After all, no one could go near the Garden again, to partake "of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" Gen 2:17, now could they since according to Gen 3:24 cherubim were placed along with a flaming sword to guard the way to the tree!
The reason is self-evident: they did not commit the same sin that Adam had but they had sinned nonetheless despite the fact that there was no specific commandment such as the one given to Adam in Gen 2:17!
How could this be?
Lets look at Gen 3:22 "22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— "
After partaking of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, Adam and his wife had indeed gained knowledge of good and evil! This is EXACTLY the point that God Himself spells out in Gen 3:22.
The knowledge of good and evil means that one can indeed discern what is sin, and what is not, WITHOUT a specific legal code. To this day we humans are indwelt with this same knowledge, and because of it Paul could write this:
Rom 2:12-16
"12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel."
Think about this for a while: "For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law"
Clearly this is hopelessly and completely unjust unless one is indeed able, "to know good and evil"!
This knowledge of good and evil is not the Torah. Considering the situation in which this knowledge was obtained it is inconceivable that this was, in fact, the reception of the Torah!
In Gal 3:19 Paul says that the Law was temporary "till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made".
What evidence is there that the Law has indeed been set aside?
Eph 2:14-18
"14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father."
This piece of text looks complicated but actually it is not!
The "both" referred to several times starting in vs 14 are defined just prior in Eph 2:11-13.
Simply the "both" is the Jews (also referred to as the Circumcision in this passage) and the Gentiles (also referred to as the Uncircimcision in this passage).
Eph 2:14-18 describes the reconciliation of the Gentile and the Jew through the work of Jesus Christ on the cross. HOW this reconciliation is achieved is the key here!
vs 14 explains that He Himself (Jesus Christ) is our peace, having united the Jew and the Gentile, "has made both one", by breaking down, "the middle wall of separation".
What is that "middle wall of separation"?
Paul describes it as "the enmity" and then goes on to define the enmity, "the law of commandments contained in ordinances" Eph 2:15
Peace is established, through the cross "putting to death the enmity". Eph 2:16
"the enmity" that is put to death is none other than "the law of commandments contained in ordinances"!
This is the Law, the Torah!
And Eph 2:15 makes it clear that is has been abolished!
Col 2:14, in a slightly different context says exactly the same thing: "14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."
The "handwriting of requirements " is the Law.
It is described thus: "that was against us, which was contrary to us"!
Why is the Law against us?
It is not the fault of the Law, but its only consequence to us is to condemn us!
But, Col 2:14 then goes on to say this: "And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."
In other words, the righteous requirements of the Law, the whole Law, and not just selected parts of the Law, have been taken care of through the crucifixion of Jesus Christ!
The requirements of the Law are abrogated by the institution of the New covenant through the crucifixion of Jesus Christ!
Eph 2:14-18 comes to exactly the same end point!
Of course, our Adventist friends have gone to extraordinary lengths to try and "prove" that this is not so!
This was the whole purpose of the thread!
Yet, every premise behind their ridiculous doctrines can be exposed.
The few that I have exposed here just shows that the entire Adventist system is nothing but a house of cards!
Cain and the men of Sodom were sinners because they disobeyed GOD's voice - the spirit of love. They did not sin against the law of Moses. You can't break a law that doesn't exist. If Cain had sinned against the law of Moses he would have been put to death. Instead he was banished from GOD's presence.
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Yea, Cain was different. he still had the spirit of God in him. ,but when he killed Abel, the spirit departed. Not realizing what he had done until it was too late. Never once did he curse God for what he did to him. It was a just punishment. God turned him into a fugitive and a vagabond ,and we know that a fugitive is one who flee from justice of the crime they committed. He was not running from God, but from other men that was persuaing him for the murder of Abel. God knew his whereabouts at all times. The mark that was put on him was not a visible mark, but a mark in his heart and a promise God made to him that if any man would find him and kill him, that his death would be avenged seven time over.
Here you obviously did not read the post...
I see you are also confused about what makes up the OLD and NEW Covenants.
GOD'S LAW (TORAH) IN GENESIS AND THE SABBATH
Gen 26:5 Because Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong LAWS - H8451; תּורה תּרה; tôrâh tôrâh; to-raw', to-raw' From H3384; a precept or statute, especially the Decalogue or Pentateuch: - law.
Abraham kept God's TORAH which includes God's LAW (10 Commandments) and the sacrificial laws for remission of SIN and SIN offerings.
Genesis 22
6, And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it on Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.
7, And Isaac spoke to Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?
8, And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
13, And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns:and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.
Burnt offereings were made for remission of SIN. What is SIN? Sin is disobedience to God's WORD and includes breaking God's Commandments (Romans 7:7; James 2:9-11; 1 John 3:4). It is God's WORD and his LAW that give us a KNOWLEDGE of SIN (Romans 3:20)
Romans 3
19, Now we know that what things soever the law said, it said to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20, Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
NOW if GOD tells us that Abraham kept his TORAH (LAWS) then is God's 4th Commandment not part of the TORAH?
Indeed it is. Where does it say in God's WORD that Abraham or any of God's people before MOSES did NOT Keep God's Sabbath?
God says Abraham kept TORAH (10 Commandments and sin offereings). You say Abraham DID NOT keep TORAH (This includes God's 4th Commandment). Who do we believe God or man?
Now if you BELIEVE Abraham did NOT keep God's SABBATH (part of TORAH) then please show the scriptures proving that Abraham did not keep the Sabbath which is part of the TORAH?
God's WORD shows God's LAW (10 Commandments) and the CEREMONIAL laws and ORDINANCES for SIN offerings (TORAH) were kept BEFORE Mt Sinai.
Let's look at God's WORD....
Genesis 26
5, Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Genesis 5
24, And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
Genesis 6
8, But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. 9, These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
CONCLUSION: God's people before Mt Sinai followed him and kept his laws (TORAH). God's Sabbath is a part of God's law (TORAH). There is NO scripture that says God's people including Abraham did NOT keep God's Sabbath. Genesis shows that God's people including Abraham kept his law (TORAH) which includes the Sabbath.
..................
God destroys mankind because of sin......
Genesis 6
5, And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that EVERY IMAGINATION OF THE THOUGHTS OF HIOS HEAT was only EVIL CONTINUALLY.
6, And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7, And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
8, But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
What are these CONTINUAL EVIL THOUGHTS?
Matthew 15
19, For out of the heart proceed EVIL THOUGHTS, MURDERS, ADULTERIES, FORNICATION, THEFTS, FALSE WITNESS, BLASPHEMIES
20, These are the things which defile a man:
Evil is breaking God's Commandments in thought and actions.
Genesis 6
8, But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. 9, These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
Genesis 8:20 And Noah built an altar to the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
CONCLUSION: SIN existed BEFORE Mt Sinai, SIN is disobeying God's WORD and breaking his law (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; James 2:9-11). The WORLD was destroyed because of SIN (breaking God's LAW). Noah walked with God and was perfect in God's eyes not destroyed because he and his family did NOT practice sin. Noah followed God's LAW and offered SIN offerings for forgiveness of SIN (TORAH)
..................
Cain was punished by God for Murder (6th Commandment Exo 20:13)
Genesis 4
8, And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
9, And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
10, And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
11, And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;
12, When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.
13, And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.
links to....
1 John 3
12, Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
13, Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
14, We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15, Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
CONCLUSION: SIN existed BEFORE Mt Sinai, SIN is disobeying God's WORD and breaking his law (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; James 2:9-11). CAIN was punished for the SIN of MURDER when he slew his brother Abel.
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In Genesis we also read about Joseph in Egypt as a servant being tempted to commit adultery with Potifer’s wife
Genesis 39
7, And it came to pass after these things, that his master's wife cast her eyes upon Joseph; and she said, Lie with me.
8, But he refused, and said unto his master's wife, Behold, my master wotteth not what is with me in the house, and he hath committed all that he hath to my hand;
9, There is none greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back anything from me but thee, because thou art his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?
If Joseph did NOT know God’s LAW then how did he know he was SINNING against God by committing adultery with Potifer’s wife?
CONCLUSION: SIN existed BEFORE Mt Sinai, SIN is disobeying God's WORD and breaking his law (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; James 2:9-11). Joseph knew that to commit ADULTERY (7th Commandment; Exodus 20:14) was SIN against God and refused not to SIN.
..................The Mosaic laws for remission of sin (SACRIFICIAL SIN OFFERINGS) were practiced BEFORE Sinai....
Genesis 4
4, And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering.
Genesis 8
20, And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar
SIN is the transgression of God's LAW (10 Commandments) please read Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and James 2:11. God's LAW gives us a KNOWLEDGE of SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS (Romans 3:20) SIN offereings were only practiced in the OLD Covenant for the remission or forgiveness of SIN (Breaking God's 10 Commandments) If God's people did not have God's LAW why are they offering SIN offereings to God if these laws were only known about in Mt Sinai?
Abraham and his son practiced and knew about sin offerings...
Genesis 22
7, And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?
8, And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
Exodus 10
25, And Moses said, Thou must give us also sacrifices and burnt offerings, that we may sacrifice unto the LORD our God.
CONCLUSION: SIN existed BEFORE Mt Sinai, SIN is disobeying God's WORD and breaking his law (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; James 2:9-11). From Abel through to Abraham before MOSES we see God's people obeying God's LAW and providing sin offerings to God for breaking his law. If there was no law (TORAH) there would be no sin and no need for sin offerings.
..................
The Sabbath was also kept by our first parents and also others BEFORE Sinai. The reason God gave the 10 Commandments again was being His people had been slaves in Egypt for 430 years (Exodus 12:40). God delivered his people from Egypt (the World) and needed to re-teach them his ways which were mostly forgotten by this time.
So yep God's LAW and the laws for remission of sin and burnt offerings of the OLD Covenant were indeed practiced BEFORE Sinai.
The Sabbath was made at the 7th Day of the creation week and given to Adam and Eve.
Let's look at the scriptures........
Genesis 2
1, Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2, And ON THE SEVENTH DAY God ended his work which he had made; and he RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY from all his work which he had made.
3, And GOD BLESSED THE SEVENTH DAY, and made it HOLY <the 7th day>: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
RESTED H7673שָׁבַת shabath (shaw-ɓath') v.to repose, i.e. to cease from exertion.
{used in many implied relations (causative, figurative or specific)}[a primitive root]KJV: (cause to, let, make to) cease, celebrate, cause (make) to fail, keep Sabbath, suffer to be lacking, leave, put away (down), (make to) rest, rid, still, take away. Some points to note from the scriptures...............
v1 God completed creation in 6 days and RESTED on the 7TH DAY
v2 God RESTED on the 7TH DAY
v3 God SET APART the 7TH DAY and made THE 7TH DAY a HOLY DAY
v2 The 7TH DAY is part of the FINISHED WORK of the CREATION WEEKLet's now look at God's 4th commandment............
Exodus 20
8, Remember the SABBATH DAY, to KEEP IT HOLY. <Why?> Because God made it Holy for mankind and commands us to keep it as a Holy day)
9, Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work:
10, But the SEVENTH DAY IS THE SABBATH of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: <WHY>
11, For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested theSEVENTH DAY: wherefore the LORD BLESSED THE SABBATH, and HALLOWED IT.
SABBATH H7676 שַׁבָּת shabbath (shab-bawth') n-e. 1. intermission, a period of temporary rest.2. (specifically) the Sabbath, the seventh day being the day of rest.[intensive from H7673]KJV: (+ every) Sabbath. Root(s): H7673Now who did God make the 7th day a Holy day for? Is he making that day a Holy day for himself? Of course NOT God is already Holy. He has made the day for MANKIND as a HOLY DAY.
Let’s see what Jesus says…………
Mark 2
27, And he said unto them, THE SABBATH WAS MADE FOR MAN, and not man for the Sabbath.
The Sabbath was made for WHO? The Sabbath was made for MAN. So here we have the God of creation telling us why the 7th Day was made a Holy day. It was made for MANKIND
STRONGS Greek MAN G444 ἄνθρωποςanthropos (an'-thrō-pos) n.
1. (literally) man†-visage (i.e. a man-faced being, a man who has visibly come of age).
2. (concretely, in Hebrew) a clay being (a classification of beings made in the image of God, who made them male and female). 3. (generically, in English) a human being. 4. (indefinitely) a certain man (i.e. someone).
[from G435 and ops “the countenance” (from G3700)] KJV: certain, man Root(s): G435, G3700So the Sabbath was made for Human beings; clay beings (we are made out of the dust); male and female
So God made the 7th day of the week a HOLY day and blessed it for MAN this now ties in very nicely with the 4th commandment (Exodus 20:8-11) God says that it is a specific day which is the 7TH DAY OF THE WEEK that he has made to be a HOLY DAY.
Jesus says it was made Holy in the creation week for mankind. All scriptures connect and are in harmony. Genesis where God made the Day a HOLY DAY;
God’s 4th commandment to His people that says to REMEMBER the Sabbath day to KEEP it a HOLY DAY and Jesus stating that the Sabbath was made for MANKIND (Human beings; male and female).
Now if God made the Sabbath for mankind then obviously Adam and Eve had the Sabbath. The GREEK Word for MAN G444 ἄνθρωποςanthropos (an'-thrō-pos) n. is a clay being (a classification of beings made in the image of God, who made them male and female).
There is only two people made out of clay (dust) and that is Adam and Eve.
Yep God's Sabbath was given to mankind in the Garden of Eden and made in the Creation WEEK. Only God's Word is true and we should BELIEVE it. Those that do not BELIEVE God's Word are UNBELIVERS and UNBELIEVERS have no part in God's Kingdom................
There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.
God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)
Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has lead many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)
Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?
I see you are also confused about what makes up the OLD and NEW Covenants.
GOD'S LAW (TORAH) IN GENESIS AND THE SABBATH
Gen 26:5 Because Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong LAWS - H8451; תּורה תּרה; tôrâh tôrâh; to-raw', to-raw' From H3384; a precept or statute, especially the Decalogue or Pentateuch: - law.
Abraham kept God's TORAH which includes God's LAW (10 Commandments) and the sacrificial laws for remission of SIN and SIN offerings.
Genesis 22
6, And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it on Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.
7, And Isaac spoke to Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?
8, And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
13, And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns:and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.
Burnt offereings were made for remission of SIN. What is SIN? Sin is disobedience to God's WORD and includes breaking God's Commandments (Romans 7:7; James 2:9-11; 1 John 3:4). It is God's WORD and his LAW that give us a KNOWLEDGE of SIN (Romans 3:20)
Romans 3
19, Now we know that what things soever the law said, it said to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20, Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
NOW if GOD tells us that Abraham kept his TORAH (LAWS) then is God's 4th Commandment not part of the TORAH?
Indeed it is. Where does it say in God's WORD that Abraham or any of God's people before MOSES did NOT Keep God's Sabbath?
God says Abraham kept TORAH (10 Commandments and sin offereings). You say Abraham DID NOT keep TORAH (This includes God's 4th Commandment). Who do we believe God or man?
Now if you BELIEVE Abraham did NOT keep God's SABBATH (part of TORAH) then please show the scriptures proving that Abraham did not keep the Sabbath which is part of the TORAH?
God's WORD shows God's LAW (10 Commandments) and the CEREMONIAL laws and ORDINANCES for SIN offerings (TORAH) were kept BEFORE Mt Sinai.
Let's look at God's WORD....
Genesis 26
5, Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Genesis 5
24, And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
Genesis 6
8, But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. 9, These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
CONCLUSION: God's people before Mt Sinai followed him and kept his laws (TORAH). God's Sabbath is a part of God's law (TORAH). There is NO scripture that says God's people including Abraham did NOT keep God's Sabbath. Genesis shows that God's people including Abraham kept his law (TORAH) which includes the Sabbath.
..................
God destroys mankind because of sin......
Genesis 6
5, And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that EVERY IMAGINATION OF THE THOUGHTS OF HIOS HEAT was only EVIL CONTINUALLY.
6, And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7, And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
8, But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
What are these CONTINUAL EVIL THOUGHTS?
Matthew 15
19, For out of the heart proceed EVIL THOUGHTS, MURDERS, ADULTERIES, FORNICATION, THEFTS, FALSE WITNESS, BLASPHEMIES
20, These are the things which defile a man:
Evil is breaking God's Commandments in thought and actions.
Genesis 6
8, But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. 9, These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
Genesis 8:20 And Noah built an altar to the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
CONCLUSION: SIN existed BEFORE Mt Sinai, SIN is disobeying God's WORD and breaking his law (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; James 2:9-11). The WORLD was destroyed because of SIN (breaking God's LAW). Noah walked with God and was perfect in God's eyes not destroyed because he and his family did NOT practice sin. Noah followed God's LAW and offered SIN offerings for forgiveness of SIN (TORAH)
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Cain was punished by God for Murder (6th Commandment Exo 20:13)
Genesis 4
8, And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
9, And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
10, And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
11, And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;
12, When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.
13, And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.
links to....
1 John 3
12, Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
13, Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
14, We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15, Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
CONCLUSION: SIN existed BEFORE Mt Sinai, SIN is disobeying God's WORD and breaking his law (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; James 2:9-11). CAIN was punished for the SIN of MURDER when he slew his brother Abel.
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In Genesis we also read about Joseph in Egypt as a servant being tempted to commit adultery with Potifer’s wife
Genesis 39
7, And it came to pass after these things, that his master's wife cast her eyes upon Joseph; and she said, Lie with me.
8, But he refused, and said unto his master's wife, Behold, my master wotteth not what is with me in the house, and he hath committed all that he hath to my hand;
9, There is none greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back anything from me but thee, because thou art his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?
If Joseph did NOT know God’s LAW then how did he know he was SINNING against God by committing adultery with Potifer’s wife?
CONCLUSION: SIN existed BEFORE Mt Sinai, SIN is disobeying God's WORD and breaking his law (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; James 2:9-11). Joseph knew that to commit ADULTERY (7th Commandment; Exodus 20:14) was SIN against God and refused not to SIN.
..................The Mosaic laws for remission of sin (SACRIFICIAL SIN OFFERINGS) were practiced BEFORE Sinai....
Genesis 4
4, And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering.
Genesis 8
20, And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar
SIN is the transgression of God's LAW (10 Commandments) please read Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and James 2:11. God's LAW gives us a KNOWLEDGE of SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS (Romans 3:20) SIN offereings were only practiced in the OLD Covenant for the remission or forgiveness of SIN (Breaking God's 10 Commandments) If God's people did not have God's LAW why are they offering SIN offereings to God if these laws were only known about in Mt Sinai?
Abraham and his son practiced and knew about sin offerings...
Genesis 22
7, And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?
8, And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
Exodus 10
25, And Moses said, Thou must give us also sacrifices and burnt offerings, that we may sacrifice unto the LORD our God.
CONCLUSION: SIN existed BEFORE Mt Sinai, SIN is disobeying God's WORD and breaking his law (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; James 2:9-11). From Abel through to Abraham before MOSES we see God's people obeying God's LAW and providing sin offerings to God for breaking his law. If there was no law (TORAH) there would be no sin and no need for sin offerings.
..................
The Sabbath was also kept by our first parents and also others BEFORE Sinai. The reason God gave the 10 Commandments again was being His people had been slaves in Egypt for 430 years (Exodus 12:40). God delivered his people from Egypt (the World) and needed to re-teach them his ways which were mostly forgotten by this time.
So yep God's LAW and the laws for remission of sin and burnt offerings of the OLD Covenant were indeed practiced BEFORE Sinai.
The Sabbath was made at the 7th Day of the creation week and given to Adam and Eve.
Let's look at the scriptures........
Genesis 2
1, Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2, And ON THE SEVENTH DAY God ended his work which he had made; and he RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY from all his work which he had made.
3, And GOD BLESSED THE SEVENTH DAY, and made it HOLY <the 7th day>: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
RESTED H7673שָׁבַת shabath (shaw-ɓath') v.to repose, i.e. to cease from exertion.
{used in many implied relations (causative, figurative or specific)}[a primitive root]KJV: (cause to, let, make to) cease, celebrate, cause (make) to fail, keep Sabbath, suffer to be lacking, leave, put away (down), (make to) rest, rid, still, take away. Some points to note from the scriptures...............
v1 God completed creation in 6 days and RESTED on the 7TH DAY
v2 God RESTED on the 7TH DAY
v3 God SET APART the 7TH DAY and made THE 7TH DAY a HOLY DAY
v2 The 7TH DAY is part of the FINISHED WORK of the CREATION WEEKLet's now look at God's 4th commandment............
Exodus 20
8, Remember the SABBATH DAY, to KEEP IT HOLY. <Why?> Because God made it Holy for mankind and commands us to keep it as a Holy day)
9, Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work:
10, But the SEVENTH DAY IS THE SABBATH of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: <WHY>
11, For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested theSEVENTH DAY: wherefore the LORD BLESSED THE SABBATH, and HALLOWED IT.
SABBATH H7676 שַׁבָּת shabbath (shab-bawth') n-e. 1. intermission, a period of temporary rest.2. (specifically) the Sabbath, the seventh day being the day of rest.[intensive from H7673]KJV: (+ every) Sabbath. Root(s): H7673Now who did God make the 7th day a Holy day for? Is he making that day a Holy day for himself? Of course NOT God is already Holy. He has made the day for MANKIND as a HOLY DAY.
Let’s see what Jesus says…………
Mark 2
27, And he said unto them, THE SABBATH WAS MADE FOR MAN, and not man for the Sabbath.
The Sabbath was made for WHO? The Sabbath was made for MAN. So here we have the God of creation telling us why the 7th Day was made a Holy day. It was made for MANKIND
STRONGS Greek MAN G444 ἄνθρωποςanthropos (an'-thrō-pos) n.
1. (literally) man†-visage (i.e. a man-faced being, a man who has visibly come of age).
2. (concretely, in Hebrew) a clay being (a classification of beings made in the image of God, who made them male and female). 3. (generically, in English) a human being. 4. (indefinitely) a certain man (i.e. someone).
[from G435 and ops “the countenance” (from G3700)] KJV: certain, man Root(s): G435, G3700So the Sabbath was made for Human beings; clay beings (we are made out of the dust); male and female
So God made the 7th day of the week a HOLY day and blessed it for MAN this now ties in very nicely with the 4th commandment (Exodus 20:8-11) God says that it is a specific day which is the 7TH DAY OF THE WEEK that he has made to be a HOLY DAY.
Jesus says it was made Holy in the creation week for mankind. All scriptures connect and are in harmony. Genesis where God made the Day a HOLY DAY;
God’s 4th commandment to His people that says to REMEMBER the Sabbath day to KEEP it a HOLY DAY and Jesus stating that the Sabbath was made for MANKIND (Human beings; male and female).
Now if God made the Sabbath for mankind then obviously Adam and Eve had the Sabbath. The GREEK Word for MAN G444 ἄνθρωποςanthropos (an'-thrō-pos) n. is a clay being (a classification of beings made in the image of God, who made them male and female).
There is only two people made out of clay (dust) and that is Adam and Eve.
Yep God's Sabbath was given to mankind in the Garden of Eden and made in the Creation WEEK. Only God's Word is true and we should BELIEVE it. Those that do not BELIEVE God's Word are UNBELIVERS and UNBELIEVERS have no part in God's Kingdom................
There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.
God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)
Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has lead many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)
Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?
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I deleted most the reply to concentrate on just the very first part...
Obviously you are inordinately fascinated with Gen 26:5.
Clearly of major importance in constructing your house of cards!
You have even given a dictionary definition of the word "law" I presume as some kind of "proof" that it MUST refer to the Torah AS RECEIVED BY MOSES. However, the word just means "law" and cannot, on its own prove that an occurrence of that word MUST refer to the Torah (the Law as given to Moses by God).
You have then gone on to make the express claim that "Abraham kept God's TORAH which includes God's LAW (10 Commandments) and the sacrificial laws for remission of SIN and SIN offerings."
So, if this claim is correct then there MUST be a text detailing where Abraham, or some other Patriarch prior to this time, RECEIVED the Torah. Otherwise, it is nothing but unsubstantiated speculation.
This is the Bible we are talking about, we cannot just accept vague speculation as fact, now can we....
So come on, MR SOLA SCRIPTURA, provide me with one text that proves that Abraham or one of the Patriarch's BEFORE him actually RECEIVED the Torah!
If such a text exists then it must be in one of the chapter2 prior to chapter 26, so it should not be too difficult for Bible teacher of your stature to find...
And, oh, while you are about it, perhaps you could share, just a single text would do, an EXPLICIT reference to Abraham observing the Sabbath. Please do not repost Gen 26:5 - it does not "prove" in any way that Abraham knew the Torah (as given to Moses), kept the Torah (as given to Moses), or observed the Sabbath (as given to Moses)...
The evidence would all be in about the first 30 chapters of Genesis....
Obviously you are inordinately fascinated with Gen 26:5.
Clearly of major importance in constructing your house of cards!
You have even given a dictionary definition of the word "law" I presume as some kind of "proof" that it MUST refer to the Torah AS RECEIVED BY MOSES. However, the word just means "law" and cannot, on its own prove that an occurrence of that word MUST refer to the Torah (the Law as given to Moses by God).
You have then gone on to make the express claim that "Abraham kept God's TORAH which includes God's LAW (10 Commandments) and the sacrificial laws for remission of SIN and SIN offerings."
So, if this claim is correct then there MUST be a text detailing where Abraham, or some other Patriarch prior to this time, RECEIVED the Torah. Otherwise, it is nothing but unsubstantiated speculation.
This is the Bible we are talking about, we cannot just accept vague speculation as fact, now can we....
So come on, MR SOLA SCRIPTURA, provide me with one text that proves that Abraham or one of the Patriarch's BEFORE him actually RECEIVED the Torah!
If such a text exists then it must be in one of the chapter2 prior to chapter 26, so it should not be too difficult for Bible teacher of your stature to find...
And, oh, while you are about it, perhaps you could share, just a single text would do, an EXPLICIT reference to Abraham observing the Sabbath. Please do not repost Gen 26:5 - it does not "prove" in any way that Abraham knew the Torah (as given to Moses), kept the Torah (as given to Moses), or observed the Sabbath (as given to Moses)...
The evidence would all be in about the first 30 chapters of Genesis....
Hi GNP,
I can understand why you did not want to reply to all the post that was provided earlier. There is a lot of scripture that disagrees with your teachings. Here lets look at what you are saying here and compare it to God's WORD.
Not really it is God's WORD just one of many scriptures posted that disagrees with your theory that none had God's LAW before Moses. It is God's WORDS GNP and it does not disagree with you. If you disagree please post one scripture that says God's people did not know or have God's LAW before Moses. You have been provided a wall of scripture that says God's people had God's LAWS BEFORE MOSES.
Now where are your scripture to say as you believe Gods people did not have God's LAW before Moses?
Well that is not true you must have not read the post again did you GNP. I highlighted the main points in red maybe you missed so let's see what God's WORD says again.
Gen 26:5 Because Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Hebrew Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong LAWS - H8451; תּורה תּרה; TORAH tôrâh; to-raw', to-raw' From H3384; a precept or statute, especially the Decalogue or Pentateuch: - law.
The HEBREW WORD USED IN GENESIS 26:5 FOR LAW IS TORAH (ALL THE LAWS OF GOD)
So, Abraham kept God's TORAH which includes God's LAW (10 Commandments) and the sacrificial laws for remission of SIN and SIN offerings.
NOW the rest of the post is scripture support that shows God's people BEFORE MOSES KEEPING God's TORAH including the sacrificial laws for remission of SIN and SIN offerings (Burnt Offerings).
Thanks anyway but I cannot take credit for you as it is God's WORD not mine and we should BELIEVE and FOLLOW it over the teachings and traditions of MEN that break the commandments of God.
Why does there need to be another bible text saying that Abraham, or some other Patriach prior to the time of Moses time received Torah?
All I know is that if God's WORD says his people were practicing TORAH prior to MOSES and there is a wall of scripture that supports God's people keeping TORAH as shown in the main post before MOSES then that is God's WORD and we should BELIEVE it.
Now you BELIEVE that God's people did not keep TORAH despite the WALL of scripture disagreeing with you right?
Please show us then from the WORD of GOD (Sola Scriptura) that God's people BEFORE Moses did not have the TORAH when God says they did?
The only speculation is on your behalf as you cannot show scripture support for your BELIEF and there is a WALL of SCRIPTURE from God's WORD that disagrees with you.
It is God's WORD that says the Patriachs kept TORAH I think we should BELIEVE God's WORD dont you?
...................
SIN is the breaking of God's Commandments (James 2:9-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4) Those who CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will NOT enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.
...................
God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12).
If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)
Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)
There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.
Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?
In times of ignorance God winks at but now ,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).
I can understand why you did not want to reply to all the post that was provided earlier. There is a lot of scripture that disagrees with your teachings. Here lets look at what you are saying here and compare it to God's WORD.
Not really it is God's WORD just one of many scriptures posted that disagrees with your theory that none had God's LAW before Moses. It is God's WORDS GNP and it does not disagree with you. If you disagree please post one scripture that says God's people did not know or have God's LAW before Moses. You have been provided a wall of scripture that says God's people had God's LAWS BEFORE MOSES.
Now where are your scripture to say as you believe Gods people did not have God's LAW before Moses?
Well that is not true you must have not read the post again did you GNP. I highlighted the main points in red maybe you missed so let's see what God's WORD says again.
Gen 26:5 Because Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Hebrew Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong LAWS - H8451; תּורה תּרה; TORAH tôrâh; to-raw', to-raw' From H3384; a precept or statute, especially the Decalogue or Pentateuch: - law.
The HEBREW WORD USED IN GENESIS 26:5 FOR LAW IS TORAH (ALL THE LAWS OF GOD)
So, Abraham kept God's TORAH which includes God's LAW (10 Commandments) and the sacrificial laws for remission of SIN and SIN offerings.
NOW the rest of the post is scripture support that shows God's people BEFORE MOSES KEEPING God's TORAH including the sacrificial laws for remission of SIN and SIN offerings (Burnt Offerings).
Thanks anyway but I cannot take credit for you as it is God's WORD not mine and we should BELIEVE and FOLLOW it over the teachings and traditions of MEN that break the commandments of God.
Why does there need to be another bible text saying that Abraham, or some other Patriach prior to the time of Moses time received Torah?
All I know is that if God's WORD says his people were practicing TORAH prior to MOSES and there is a wall of scripture that supports God's people keeping TORAH as shown in the main post before MOSES then that is God's WORD and we should BELIEVE it.
Now you BELIEVE that God's people did not keep TORAH despite the WALL of scripture disagreeing with you right?
Please show us then from the WORD of GOD (Sola Scriptura) that God's people BEFORE Moses did not have the TORAH when God says they did?
The only speculation is on your behalf as you cannot show scripture support for your BELIEF and there is a WALL of SCRIPTURE from God's WORD that disagrees with you.
It is God's WORD that says the Patriachs kept TORAH I think we should BELIEVE God's WORD dont you?
...................
SIN is the breaking of God's Commandments (James 2:9-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4) Those who CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will NOT enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.
...................
God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12).
If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)
Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)
There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.
Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?
In times of ignorance God winks at but now ,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).
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So, the sum total of your whole argument is this assumption?
Completely unsupported by Scripture!
I believe we should believe God's word, absolutely!
However I have read every word of Genesis multiple times and there is NO reference to any of the Patriarchs receiving the Torah, much less obeying it!
Even more specifically, there is ABSOLUTELY no mention of the word Sabbath until Ex 16:23!
Yet you are continually claiming your 'sola scriptura' nonsense, but cannot back up any of your claims when put to an actual test.
Posting walls of irrelevant Scripture does nothing but highlight your foolishness.
I will repeat my question again:
So, if this claim is correct then there MUST be a text detailing where Abraham, or some other Patriarch prior to this time, RECEIVED the Torah. Otherwise, it is nothing but unsubstantiated speculation.
This is the Bible we are talking about, we cannot just accept vague speculation as fact, now can we....
So come on, MR SOLA SCRIPTURA, provide me with one text that proves that Abraham or one of the Patriarch's BEFORE him actually RECEIVED the Torah!
If such a text exists then it must be in one of the chapters prior to chapter 26, so it should not be too difficult for Bible teacher of your stature to find...
And, oh, while you are about it, perhaps you could share, just a single text would do, an EXPLICIT reference to Abraham observing the Sabbath. Please do not repost Gen 26:5 - it does not "prove" in any way that Abraham knew the Torah (as given to Moses), kept the Torah (as given to Moses), or observed the Sabbath (as given to Moses)...
The evidence would all be in about the first 30 chapters of Genesis....
I suggest that you find the text where Abraham or some other Patriarch receives the Torah, as well as the text that proves Abraham observed the Sabbath....
otherwise I suggest a blanket unconditional apology to all the people that you have wilfully tried to deceive for more than a year!
Completely unsupported by Scripture!
I believe we should believe God's word, absolutely!
However I have read every word of Genesis multiple times and there is NO reference to any of the Patriarchs receiving the Torah, much less obeying it!
Even more specifically, there is ABSOLUTELY no mention of the word Sabbath until Ex 16:23!
Yet you are continually claiming your 'sola scriptura' nonsense, but cannot back up any of your claims when put to an actual test.
Posting walls of irrelevant Scripture does nothing but highlight your foolishness.
I will repeat my question again:
So, if this claim is correct then there MUST be a text detailing where Abraham, or some other Patriarch prior to this time, RECEIVED the Torah. Otherwise, it is nothing but unsubstantiated speculation.
This is the Bible we are talking about, we cannot just accept vague speculation as fact, now can we....
So come on, MR SOLA SCRIPTURA, provide me with one text that proves that Abraham or one of the Patriarch's BEFORE him actually RECEIVED the Torah!
If such a text exists then it must be in one of the chapters prior to chapter 26, so it should not be too difficult for Bible teacher of your stature to find...
And, oh, while you are about it, perhaps you could share, just a single text would do, an EXPLICIT reference to Abraham observing the Sabbath. Please do not repost Gen 26:5 - it does not "prove" in any way that Abraham knew the Torah (as given to Moses), kept the Torah (as given to Moses), or observed the Sabbath (as given to Moses)...
The evidence would all be in about the first 30 chapters of Genesis....
I suggest that you find the text where Abraham or some other Patriarch receives the Torah, as well as the text that proves Abraham observed the Sabbath....
otherwise I suggest a blanket unconditional apology to all the people that you have wilfully tried to deceive for more than a year!
The DISagreement is that some want to change GOD's given Holy Day to sunday and/or every day...there is just no scripture for that.
It is good to pray always and worship God always but the Sabbath Day is ESPECIALLY given for it and should be kept that way !
GOD is pure and holy - APART from anything that is perverted and polluted and HE chose one day to keep it that way...we have no right to change it !
How can we be separated from and taken out of this evil world to be like Him (conformed to HIS image) if we keep dragging Him down to our level every day...WE should strive to RISE to HIS height at least on the SABBATH...as HE INSTRUCTS !!!
It is good to pray always and worship God always but the Sabbath Day is ESPECIALLY given for it and should be kept that way !
GOD is pure and holy - APART from anything that is perverted and polluted and HE chose one day to keep it that way...we have no right to change it !
How can we be separated from and taken out of this evil world to be like Him (conformed to HIS image) if we keep dragging Him down to our level every day...WE should strive to RISE to HIS height at least on the SABBATH...as HE INSTRUCTS !!!
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