Rapture= false teaching

[lecoop]

Depends on what the wrath is. The great Tribulation is not the wrath of God. The destruction of the wicked that takes place at Christ post trib return this is the wrath of God. Even the Church will have to survive the Tribulation.

There is no doubt that Jesus is REALLY angry when He faces the armies at Armageddon, and when He rescues those the fled into the wilderness. But God the Father ALSO has HIS wrath. All we need do is read at the 6th seal, and see the signs of the day of the Lord, from Joel 2 and Isa. 2, are fulfilled right there at the 6th seal, showing the whole world that the day of His wrath is imminent. I believe His wrath begins at the 7th seal and with the first trumpet. There can be no doubt that a trumpet that kills 1/3 of earth's population will be a part of His wrath. But it builds. By the time the Beast is murdering the saints, about Revelation chapters 15 and 16, God begins to pour out the vials of His wrath. And they are poured out on those that have the mark, showing us that the 70th week is going on concurrently with the day of the Lord. But the 70th week ends with the last vial, while the day of the Lord continues on.

Sorry, John shows is clearly that the church is taken out, seen at the throne, in chapter 7 BEFORE the 70th week even begins.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Both post trib and pre-trib agree that a rapture occurs "BEFORE" the Day of the Lord,..and that he Day of the Lord is Gods Wrath,....I can easily prove that your statement is very flawed.
First of all the Day of the Lord begins with Ezekiel 38,...which in turn occurs slightly prior to Daniels 70th week
Also,...I can prove that The days of noah does not fit into Revelation 16, in which occurs just before the Lord returns.
Do you wish to debate this?

Wouldn't it be much easier to show Joel 2 is fulfilled at the 6th seal, i.e. the blood red moon, and the sun darkened? Of course Isa 2 is also fulfilled there. But John says that the blood red moon comes just before the day of the Lord. Therefore we can PINPOINT the beginning of the day of the Lord in Revelation. It begins at the 7th seal, and with the first trumpet.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Actually the Wrath of God begins with Ezekiel 38;19.......Verse 20 is an exact match for revelation 6;12-17.............and just in case anyone here tries to claim that revelation 16 is revelation 6,...I have news for you,.....revelation 16 never mentions the sun turning black or the moon turning red.
Also there is a word change that distinguishes between revelation 16 and revelation 6.....revelation 6 says" great earthquake"............Revelation 16 says great earthquake such as "NEVER" has been on the earth.
Again the word change is present,....revelation 6......every mountain moved out of it's place,....revelation 16..........mountains not found
it is obvious that the earthquakes are more sever in revelation 16.

also to point out that the book of revelation is in chronological order.
Also,......the Wrath of God is the whole of the tribulation

It seems to be that the 38:19 earthquake MUST be the earthquake at the last vial. For it is there that the mountains are shaken right down into the earth and disappear. In the earthquake at the 6th seal, the mountains shake, but survive. Did I misunderstand you?

Next, WHO SAID Revelation is not in order? Why did John go do such lengths to number the seals, the trumpets the vials, the thunders, the woes, if he was going to mix up the rest? To me that is silly. Yes, John does have a few "rabbit trails" that we cannot count for chronology, but other than those, it is very much in order. In other words, events of one chapter, pretty much happen AFTER the events of a previous chapter.

I agree, God is angry through out the 70th week. But many want to argue where that week is. Prewrathers want to say it is inbetween the verses of chapter 6, which is silly. John does not even begin the 70th week until the 7th seal.

 

[lecoop]

Without going in to the multiple flaws you have made in your response. The fact is you were arguing a shadow. I never even sasid that Matthew 24 was speaking of the rapture (although it is). I said it was referring to the 2nd coming. Now that we know the 2nd coming if post tribulational all we need to do is show the rapture is at the coming of Christ. which is easy enough to do.

1st Thessalonians 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Ah!! So you do believe then, that the rapture takes people from one end of heaven to the other. Very interesting.

When Jesus leaves heaven, and descends to the earth, it is a COMING. That happens in 1 thes 4, as you said. But it also happens AGAIN in Rev. 19. TWO separate comings for TWO separate purposes.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Matthew 24:29 states that both sun and moon will be darkened. This compares to:

Zechariah 14:6 “And it will be in that day, there shall not be light; the glorious ones will shrink.”

Joel 2:10 “The earth shall quake before them, the heavens shall shake. The sun and moon shall grow dark, and the stars shall gather in their light.”

Joel 3:15 “The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall gather in their light.”

Each of these references are in direct relation to the events of the Day of YHWH. All the celestial lights go dark.

This is in contrast to:

Revelation 6:12 “And I saw when He opened the sixth seal. And behold, a great earthquake occurred. And the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair; and the moon became as blood;”

. . . which compares to:

Joel 2:31 “The sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon to blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of YHWH.”

There is a very important difference between these two sets of descriptions.

The first set states that the sun “shall be darkened”, “shall grow dark”, and uses language that describes its physical state, that it becomes darkened, as Zechariah says, “there shall not be light”. This is telling us the physical state of the sun, and the other celestial lights, including the moon. Of course, the moon reflects the light from the sun, and if the sun becomes darkened, the moon will be darkened also.

The second set, however, uses phenomenal language, speaking in terms of appearance, “the sun became black”, the moon became blood”, as Joel prophesied would occur, not during the Day of YHWH, but before.

And, in fact, the phenomena prophesied, specifically, “the moon became blood”, cannot occur if the sun is actually darkened. If the sun were not emitting light, the moon would not either, of any color. The moon appears red during a lunar eclipse because the sun’s light is still reaching it. If the sun were to be darkened, none of the sun’s light would reach the moon, and it would not have any light at all.

The sun can appear black during an eclipse, for instance, without actually being darkened. If, for instance, a planetary mass of the correct size passed between the earth and the sun, at the correct distance, causing simultaneous solar and lunar eclipses, this would produce the phenomena described, a sun “black as sackcloth” and a “blood moon”.

On the other hand, causing the sun to stop emitting light could not produce the blood moon, only a darkened moon.

One might argue that God is not bound by physical laws, and I would of course agree. However, even so, a blood moon is emitting light. Zechariah prophesies there will not be light.

A "blood moon" means the sun must still be lit - not darkened.

Therefore, I have to conclude that these can only be separate events, having different direct causes.

I agree, absolutely two separate events separated by about 7 years. The blood red moon is the sign of the coming of the day of the Lord, while the darkened sun and moon are the sign of the coming of Christ as seen in Rev. 19. Good job!!!

Coop

 

[Shard]

pah I read the left behind series...Im good to go

 

[pre-trib]

It seems to be that the 38:19 earthquake MUST be the earthquake at the last vial. For it is there that the mountains are shaken right down into the earth and disappear. In the earthquake at the 6th seal, the mountains shake, but survive. Did I misunderstand you?

Next, WHO SAID Revelation is not in order? Why did John go do such lengths to number the seals, the trumpets the vials, the thunders, the woes, if he was going to mix up the rest? To me that is silly. Yes, John does have a few "rabbit trails" that we cannot count for chronology, but other than those, it is very much in order. In other words, events of one chapter, pretty much happen AFTER the events of a previous chapter.

I agree, God is angry through out the 70th week. But many want to argue where that week is. Prewrathers want to say it is inbetween the verses of chapter 6, which is silly. John does not even begin the 70th week until the 7th seal.

No Sir(Respectfully)
Ezekial 38;20 is not revelation 16;18
Ezekiel 38;20 reveals that every mountain will fall to the gound
revelation 16;18 staes that he mountains where not found.
The word changes are on purpose.
In Ezekial 38 and 39,..here is what reveals the difference in the timing of these events:
In Ezekiel 38/39...Israel is instructed to bury the dead for 7 months,and would not do this while armageddon is being prepare and the Lord about to return.
We know that when the "Abomination of Desolation" comes to pass,...The House of Israel are instructed to flee into the wilderness to be protected for 1;260 days
The earth quake in revelation 16;18 is not ezekiel 38;20

There is a great earthquake in revelation 6....12I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

And! There is an earthquake as such that has never ever occurred since the creation of the earth(Meaning these are not one and the same earthquakes)....Also take notice in revelation 16,...that it never mentions " The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red.

One is much more severe than the other.

The earthquake in 6:21 is different from 16:18; There is a difference between being moved from it's place and not being found.

Revelation 6 states..."great earthquake "

Revelation 16 produces a word change with reason and is making sure one gets the picture here in it's description.............It states....."an earthquake as such that has never ever occurred since the creation of the earth(Meaning these are not one and the same earthquakes

 

[lecoop]

No Sir(Respectfully)
Ezekial 38;20 is not revelation 16;18
Ezekiel 38;20 reveals that every mountain will fall to the gound
revelation 16;18 staes that he mountains where not found.
The word changes are on purpose.
In Ezekial 38 and 39,..here is what reveals the difference in the timing of these events:
In Ezekiel 38/39...Israel is instructed to bury the dead for 7 months,and would not do this while armageddon is being prepare and the Lord about to return.
We know that when the "Abomination of Desolation" comes to pass,...The House of Israel are instructed to flee into the wilderness to be protected for 1;260 days
The earth quake in revelation 16;18 is not ezekiel 38;20

There is a great earthquake in revelation 6....12I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

And! There is an earthquake as such that has never ever occurred since the creation of the earth(Meaning these are not one and the same earthquakes)....Also take notice in revelation 16,...that it never mentions " The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red.

One is much more severe than the other.

The earthquake in 6:21 is different from 16:18; There is a difference between being moved from it's place and not being found.

Revelation 6 states..."great earthquake "

Revelation 16 produces a word change with reason and is making sure one gets the picture here in it's description.............It states....."an earthquake as such that has never ever occurred since the creation of the earth(Meaning these are not one and the same earthquakes

Excuse me, but if the mountains fall down, they will not fall sideways and still remain a mountain; the earth will shake so violently that the mountains will vibrate and sink down into the earth. And then, the mountains could not be found.

The mountains shake at the 6th seal, but not so violently that they shake down into the earth. They are still there. And if them moved only a few inches that would fulfill this verse. Therefore the Ezekiel 38 earthquake cannot possibly be the 6th seal earthquake.

If the Ezekiel 38 battle IS the battle of Armageddon, as I suspect, they the dead would be buried AFTER the battle of Armageddon, and that makes sense.

It seems to me that you have mountains made flat, and mountains still standing; as ONE event.

Coop

 

[pre-trib]

There is no doubt that Jesus is REALLY angry when He faces the armies at Armageddon, and when He rescues those the fled into the wilderness. But God the Father ALSO has HIS wrath. All we need do is read at the 6th seal, and see the signs of the day of the Lord, from Joel 2 and Isa. 2, are fulfilled right there at the 6th seal, showing the whole world that the day of His wrath is imminent. I believe His wrath begins at the 7th seal and with the first trumpet. There can be no doubt that a trumpet that kills 1/3 of earth's population will be a part of His wrath. But it builds. By the time the Beast is murdering the saints, about Revelation chapters 15 and 16, God begins to pour out the vials of His wrath. And they are poured out on those that have the mark, showing us that the 70th week is going on concurrently with the day of the Lord. But the 70th week ends with the last vial, while the day of the Lord continues on.

Sorry, John shows is clearly that the church is taken out, seen at the throne, in chapter 7 BEFORE the 70th week even begins.

Coop

I totally agree,...But I can take it one step further.....The Bible does "NOT" give us a day or an hour of the rapture,....BUT!!!...it strongly reveals to us the general time era of when it will occur.
GET EXCITED!!....We are going to be approuching that general time era soon!

 

[pre-trib]

Excuse me, but if the mountains fall down, they will not fall sideways and still remain a mountain; the earth will shake so violently that the mountains will vibrate and sink down into the earth. And then, the mountains could not be found.

The mountains shake at the 6th seal, but not so violently that they shake down into the earth. They are still there. And if them moved only a few inches that would fulfill this verse. Therefore the Ezekiel 38 earthquake cannot possibly be the 6th seal earthquake.

If the Ezekiel 38 battle IS the battle of Armageddon, as I suspect, they the dead would be buried AFTER the battle of Armageddon, and that makes sense.

It seems to me that you have mountains made flat, and mountains still standing; as ONE event.

Coop

Sir,..please pardon me,...I'll try to make this timing clear in a different way so that you can see what I see.
My question to you ,...Where is Israel hiding and being protected when the Bowl judgements are being poured out?(Petra)?...please bare with me.....Just answer this question.

 

[lecoop]

I totally agree,...But I can take it one step further.....The Bible does "NOT" give us a day or an hour of the rapture,....BUT!!!...it strongly reveals to us the general time era of when it will occur.
GET EXCITED!!....We are going to be approuching that general time era soon!

I will go further still: I am convinced that God will begin revealing the time to us; I don't mean the exact time, but perhaps "next month," and maybe even "Next week." And I am SURE God will be telling some to quit jobs, and work HARD bringing in the lost. I am convinced the last month will be an incredible harvest, with signs, wonders, and miracles as we have never seen before.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Sir,..please pardon me,...I'll try to make this timing clear in a different way so that you can see what I see.
My question to you ,...Where is Israel hiding and being protected when the Bowl judgements are being poured out?(Petra)?...please bare with me.....Just answer this question.

It is possible they are in Petra, or somewhere else in the vicinity of Bozrah.

Coop

 

[pre-trib]

:..."go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty."........This is speaking of "ALL" the armies from every nation on the earth, to gather them for armageddon.
..........Now lets add another scripture to this to make sure the meaning of "ALL" is clear.
revelation 19;19
And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Now lets go to Ezekiel and you will see that not "ALL" are involved in attacking.
First of all, notice that The Lord goes into naming certain nations,...if it were "ALL"...then it would have stated all.
Now read the following:

Sheba and Dedan and the merchants of Tarshish and all her villagesd will say to you, “Have you come to plunder? Have you gathered your hordes to loot, to carry off silver and gold, to take away livestock and goods and to seize much plunder?”’

It is very obvious that these here mentioned were not involved in the attack.The following scripture states:
Get ready; be prepared, you and all the hordes gathered about you.(Ezekial 38;7
These mention obviously were not prepared,....as a matter of fact, they were surprised that this attack had even occurred and even made a diplomatic protest!.....Read the following scripture:....."
13Sheba and Dedan and the merchants of Tarshish and all her villages will say to you, “Have you come to plunder? Have you gathered your hordes to loot, to carry off silver and gold, to take away livestock and goods and to seize much plunder?”’

This is not armageddon, and Ezekial 38 will ocur just slightly prior to the beginning of Daniels 70th week, in which Turkey is the last final alignment foretold to be involved.

Now when we observe revelation 16,....any sane person would agree that this chapter is not a time of peace or everyday normal living conditions,..but that mankind is preparing for armageddon, and that 2/3rds of the worlds population is dead,...the ultimate price of Gods Wrath is "DEATH"...if your dead without jesus,..it does not get any worse than that, other than being thrown into the lake of fire for eternity!!!
There is no way that you can claim that Israel is living in safety during revelation 16 before the battle of armageddon.
Ezekial 38 points out that Israel was dwelling safely and "LIVING WITHOUT WALLS"!!!
In other words,.....

......The Jews was not living in israel,..but had fled for their lives about 3 1/2 years earlier.

14“Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say to Gog: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: In that day, when my people Israel are living in safety, will you not take notice of it?

This invasion described in Ezekiel 38;14 comes from the Uttermost north,...and if you draw a line dead north,..you will find that you have drawn a line dead center on MOSCOW RUSSIA, along with those the Lord mentions.

Get Excited!,....we are ging home to be with the Lord Jesus Christ very Soon,....after Isaiah 17;1/Psalms 83 occurrs,...a false peace will settle on Israel and the world,...the false peace is required, to line up with Ezekial 38;14,...and just slightly before this attack occurrs,...The pre-trib rapture will occur.We do not know the day or the hour,...But we will recognize the general time era of the rapture....1 Thessalonians 5;4..."But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief"


The following is by our brother Doug L.



17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.

18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.

19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.

20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.

21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.

25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.

27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

The feast in Ezekiel 39:17-20 is much bigger than the feast in Ezekiel 39:4 - because the 39:17-20 feast is the Armageddon feast. How do we know? Because (1) there is no more mention of Gog/Magog in Ezekiel 17-29
(2) the language in the verses of 28 and 29 can only be from a perspective of after Armageddon.

In verse 28, it says that none of children of Israel are left in the nations. That corresponds to Matthew 24:31, the gathering of the elect. In verse 29, "for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel"
which means that Israel cannot be in a state of rejection of Jesus.

I would urge anyone reading this post to take a look at the two feasts and see that they bracket the 7 years of the 70th week.

Doug L.

 

[pre-trib]

I will go further still: I am convinced that God will begin revealing the time to us; I don't mean the exact time, but perhaps "next month," and maybe even "Next week." And I am SURE God will be telling some to quit jobs, and work HARD bringing in the lost. I am convinced the last month will be an incredible harvest, with signs, wonders, and miracles as we have never seen before.

Coop

I love your Zeal!
So what I am trying to point out is,.....If Israel is in petra when the revelation 16;18 earth quake occurs,..then how is it possible for Israel to bury all the Dead for 7 months from the aftermath of Ezekial 38?

 

[lecoop]

:..."go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty."........This is speaking of "ALL" the armies from every nation on the earth, to gather them for armageddon.
..........Now lets add another scripture to this to make sure the meaning of "ALL" is clear.
revelation 19;19
And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Now lets go to Ezekiel and you will see that not "ALL" are involved in attacking.
First of all, notice that The Lord goes into naming certain nations,...if it were "ALL"...then it would have stated all.
Now read the following:

Sheba and Dedan and the merchants of Tarshish and all her villagesd will say to you, “Have you come to plunder? Have you gathered your hordes to loot, to carry off silver and gold, to take away livestock and goods and to seize much plunder?”’

It is very obvious that these here mentioned were not involved in the attack.The following scripture states:
Get ready; be prepared, you and all the hordes gathered about you.(Ezekial 38;7
These mention obviously were not prepared,....as a matter of fact, they were surprised that this attack had even occurred and even made a diplomatic protest!.....Read the following scripture:....."
13Sheba and Dedan and the merchants of Tarshish and all her villages will say to you, “Have you come to plunder? Have you gathered your hordes to loot, to carry off silver and gold, to take away livestock and goods and to seize much plunder?”’

This is not armageddon, and Ezekial 38 will ocur just slightly prior to the beginning of Daniels 70th week, in which Turkey is the last final alignment foretold to be involved.

Now when we observe revelation 16,....any sane person would agree that this chapter is not a time of peace or everyday normal living conditions,..but that mankind is preparing for armageddon, and that 2/3rds of the worlds population is dead,...the ultimate price of Gods Wrath is "DEATH"...if your dead without jesus,..it does not get any worse than that, other than being thrown into the lake of fire for eternity!!!
There is no way that you can claim that Israel is living in safety during revelation 16 before the battle of armageddon.
Ezekial 38 points out that Israel was dwelling safely and "LIVING WITHOUT WALLS"!!!
In other words,.....

......The Jews was not living in israel,..but had fled for their lives about 3 1/2 years earlier.

14“Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say to Gog: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: In that day, when my people Israel are living in safety, will you not take notice of it?

This invasion described in Ezekiel 38;14 comes from the Uttermost north,...and if you draw a line dead north,..you will find that you have drawn a line dead center on MOSCOW RUSSIA, along with those the Lord mentions.

Get Excited!,....we are ging home to be with the Lord Jesus Christ very Soon,....after Isaiah 17;1/Psalms 83 occurrs,...a false peace will settle on Israel and the world,...the false peace is required, to line up with Ezekial 38;14,...and just slightly before this attack occurrs,...The pre-trib rapture will occur.We do not know the day or the hour,...But we will recognize the general time era of the rapture....1 Thessalonians 5;4..."But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief"


The following is by our brother Doug L.



17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.

18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.

19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.

20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.

21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.

25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.

27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

The feast in Ezekiel 39:17-20 is much bigger than the feast in Ezekiel 39:4 - because the 39:17-20 feast is the Armageddon feast. How do we know? Because (1) there is no more mention of Gog/Magog in Ezekiel 17-29
(2) the language in the verses of 28 and 29 can only be from a perspective of after Armageddon.

In verse 28, it says that none of children of Israel are left in the nations. That corresponds to Matthew 24:31, the gathering of the elect. In verse 29, "for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel"
which means that Israel cannot be in a state of rejection of Jesus.

I would urge anyone reading this post to take a look at the two feasts and see that they bracket the 7 years of the 70th week.

Doug L.

You make a good point.

But I don't see Bro. Doug's point.

Coop

 

[pre-trib]

You make a good point.

But I don't see Bro. Doug's point.

Coop

Ok,...I'll settle for that.

 

[DABEARS85]

I have not read this thread, because I have to go real fast. I will come back to this thread later and post more thoughts on the subject though.

Anyway, I agree. The rapture is false teaching in my personal interpretation of things. The rapture doctrine is based off of TWO... yes that's right... TWO versus in corinthians that do NOT even correlate with any of the things the rapture discusses.

Jesus never mentioned a rapture. The OT never mentioned a rapture. Revelations never mentioned a rapture.

I don't remember the exact verse of what it was taken from... something about believers floating into the clouds to meet Jesus? I'll look it up later when I find time...

BUT... that being said... I believe the rapture doctrine was false and misleading teaching that could possibly have been spurned by the likes of Satan himself. All of us who are waiting for the great tribulation will not be ready, because they will be "floating in the clouds" as sheep following a wolf in sheep's clothing. For me, this almost is like getting the mark of the beast unknowingly. These people have no incentive to study scripture or be ready for the things that will happen, because they are too preoccupied with following false teachers who state they will be floating away while the rest of the world suffers.

God isn't like that. God expects us to be scripturally sound and to be prepared. There's a huge reason why there is a book of revelations and daniel with his visions. If we are all to be floating in the clouds, then why would any of us need to study revelations? Think about it really hard.

At the very least, I advice everyone to be prepared for the Great Tribulation as if you WILL go through it. God has a way of sparing His followers, but the bible does not discuss a rapture whatsoever. Christians were and still are persecuted all the time, and I don't believe it will be any different during the tribulation period. That is a time when all christians will be tested, and we should all prepare accordingly.

Anyway, I apologize that I can't read up on the thread and post a better response accordingly, but I strongly disagree with the rapture doctrine. In my mind, it is completely unscriptural and the person that spread that lie was a wolf in sheep's clothing. God clearly warned about many false teachers in later times, and I believe that doctrine is just one of many false interpretations of God's word.

You should not take two versus out of context and make up entire doctrines out of them. That is a very slippery slope that could end up leading you very very far astray. Trust in God, not the teachings of false teachers.

Let me say one more thing:

The Rapture Doctrine was an entirely recent invention.. by a woman. Yes, a WOMAN. I'm not saying women are unable to interpret the bible, but the bible also states they should not be teachers. I have no problem with them being ministers/pastors/whatever really, but I don't think they should be creating new doctrines, because obviously this is one of those false interpretations that have gained far too much ground in the christian worldview.

Simply put, Christians of ancient times never mentioned nor believed in a rapture. It was strictly a recent invention, and it is false teaching. Those who believe in the rapture are usually very unlearned scripturally, because they would question the theory immediately upon realizing the TWO (yes, only TWO in the entire bible) versus it is based off of.

I'm out of time. Thanks for your time, and God Bless,

Dabears85

 

[pre-trib]

I have not read this thread, because I have to go real fast. I will come back to this thread later and post more thoughts on the subject though.

Anyway, I agree. The rapture is false teaching in my personal interpretation of things. The rapture doctrine is based off of TWO... yes that's right... TWO versus in corinthians that do NOT even correlate with any of the things the rapture discusses.

Jesus never mentioned a rapture. The OT never mentioned a rapture. Revelations never mentioned a rapture.

I don't remember the exact verse of what it was taken from... something about believers floating into the clouds to meet Jesus? I'll look it up later when I find time...

BUT... that being said... I believe the rapture doctrine was false and misleading teaching that could possibly have been spurned by the likes of Satan himself. All of us who are waiting for the great tribulation will not be ready, because they will be "floating in the clouds" as sheep following a wolf in sheep's clothing. For me, this almost is like getting the mark of the beast unknowingly. These people have no incentive to study scripture or be ready for the things that will happen, because they are too preoccupied with following false teachers who state they will be floating away while the rest of the world suffers.

God isn't like that. God expects us to be scripturally sound and to be prepared. There's a huge reason why there is a book of revelations and daniel with his visions. If we are all to be floating in the clouds, then why would any of us need to study revelations? Think about it really hard.

At the very least, I advice everyone to be prepared for the Great Tribulation as if you WILL go through it. God has a way of sparing His followers, but the bible does not discuss a rapture whatsoever. Christians were and still are persecuted all the time, and I don't believe it will be any different during the tribulation period. That is a time when all christians will be tested, and we should all prepare accordingly.

Anyway, I apologize that I can't read up on the thread and post a better response accordingly, but I strongly disagree with the rapture doctrine. In my mind, it is completely unscriptural and the person that spread that lie was a wolf in sheep's clothing. God clearly warned about many false teachers in later times, and I believe that doctrine is just one of many false interpretations of God's word.

You should not take two versus out of context and make up entire doctrines out of them. That is a very slippery slope that could end up leading you very very far astray. Trust in God, not the teachings of false teachers.

Let me say one more thing:

The Rapture Doctrine was an entirely recent invention.. by a woman. Yes, a WOMAN. I'm not saying women are unable to interpret the bible, but the bible also states they should not be teachers. I have no problem with them being ministers/pastors/whatever really, but I don't think they should be creating new doctrines, because obviously this is one of those false interpretations that have gained far too much ground in the christian worldview.

Simply put, Christians of ancient times never mentioned nor believed in a rapture. It was strictly a recent invention, and it is false teaching. Those who believe in the rapture are usually very unlearned scripturally, because they would question the theory immediately upon realizing the TWO (yes, only TWO in the entire bible) versus it is based off of.

I'm out of time. Thanks for your time, and God Bless,

Dabears85

Anytime you wish to debate,..let me know Pick your verse, and I'll corrrct you with the truth of Gods Word.
Actually I'll fire the first round,...Give the Greek,Latin, and hebrew definition for "CAUGHT UP" in 1 Thessalonians 4;17

 

[forerunner]

Ah!! So you do believe then, that the rapture takes people from one end of heaven to the other. Very interesting.

When Jesus leaves heaven, and descends to the earth, it is a COMING. That happens in 1 thes 4, as you said. But it also happens AGAIN in Rev. 19. TWO separate comings for TWO separate purposes.

Coop

This is no more than unbiblical man made doctrine, that cannot be supported with scripture.

 

[lecoop]

This is no more than unbiblical man made doctrine, that cannot be supported with scripture.

Of course it can be supported; that is why there are millions of people that believe it. ONE coming is supported by 1 Thes. 4:17 and surrounding verses, and 2 Thes 2 and surrounding verses; and the SECOND coming is supported by Rev. 19, and the Olivet discourse.

So don't say "unsupported." It is only that you do not understand one of them - or just don't believe it.

I learned to count to two by the time I was two - don't know about you.

Coop