Rapture= false teaching

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Jun 29, 2010
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I can only hope one see's the truth(Smiling)
The truth is really as easy as 1+2=3 really it is.

#1 Scripture tells us that the 2nd coming is post tribulational (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27)
#2 Scripture tell us that raptus ie at the coming of Christ (1st Thess 4:15-17)
1 if the 2nd coming if after the Tribulation + 2 the rapture is at the 2nd coming + 3 the Rapture is after the Tribulation.

It is not rocket science, but rather very simple. The problem is people do not like the truth so they reject it.
 
P

pre-trib

Guest
Actually it is very well documented through out scripture. There are many scripture that speak of those that are left or remain on the day of the Lord that will have the opportunity to receive him as Messiah. Here are a couple
Zechariah 13
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.


Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


When the Jews see Jesus returning they will true to Him and be saved, they will miss the rapture yet be delivered from the wrath. The reason they mourn is because what He had endured at the hands, not for themselves, but for Him

Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.


you are rght all who refuse to accept Jesus as Messiah will be executed
You Quote:
Zechariah 13
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

My Reply:
The above scripture that you post is a prophecy that !/3rd of the jews will escape the clutches of the anti-christ and that two thirds will die,..this is about israel ,..not the bride.

You Quote:
Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

My Reply:
The Bride is guided by the Holy Spirit and knows all things.
5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
The Bride is light that sits on a hill.
Matthew 5;14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
The point here is that the Bride is a light that sits on a hill in which there are no spot or blemish.
Romans11 reveals that Israel is partly blind,..that my brother,..is not the Bride,..the Bride is not blind.
Now compare the Following which reveals that there is no light in the Day of the Lord.

18Woe to you who long

for the day of the Lord!
Why do you long for the day of the Lord?
That day will be darkness, not light.

19It will be as though a man fled from a lion
only to meet a bear,
as though he entered his house
and rested his hand on the wall
only to have a snake bite him.
20Will not the day of the Lord be darkness, not light— pitch-dark, without a ray of brightness?
Remember,...we are children of light.


You Quote:
Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

It is never stated that the jews waited till the last minute to ask the Lord into their heart,..But I will do an indepth study to see exactly what occurred at that moment

My Reply,..After doing some research,..I will agree that Israel(Jews) are saved at the last minute.
But! that privilage is not given unto the Gentiles.This is the parable of the Wedding Banquet, and there are three things to keep in mind here. First, the bride is never mentioned in this parable. Second, a bride is not considered a guest and could never be thrown out of her own wedding. And third, the banquet follows the wedding, so in the context of the parable the wedding has already taken place.
To accept the view that this parable is about the Church you have to start with the belief that some in the Church will become the Bride of Christ while others will not. But the Bible never even hints of that. It’s a man made conclusion without any Biblical support. If we’re saved, we’re in the church and are the Bride of Christ. If we’re not, we’re not.
In parables everything is symbolic of something else, and the Bible always explains what they stand for. Isaiah 61:10 explains that the wedding clothes represent righteousness;
I delight greatly in the LORD; my soul rejoices in my God. For he has clothed me with garments of salvation and arrayed me in a robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom adorns his head like a priest, and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.
Here’s how I see it. In Rev. 16:15, just after the 6th Bowl judgment and long after the church has departed, the Lord said, “Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed.”
He was alluding to the fact that the Doctrine of Eternal Security expires with the Rapture, a fact that Jesus taught in the Parable of the 10 Virgins. Tribulation believers will be saved by faith, just like everyone else, but will be responsible for keeping themselves saved, or as John said, keeping their clothes with them. Rev. 14:12 says they will do this by obeying God’s commandments and remaining faithful to Jesus.
The man ejected from the banquet was a last minute guest. He represents tribulation survivors who are not part of the Church. He was trying to receive the blessing of those invited to the wedding feast that occurs at the time of the 2nd Coming (Rev. 19:9). But He either hadn’t remained faithful and had lost his salvation, or never was saved at all. Remember the servants invited both the “good” and the “bad” and it isn’t clear whether this man had wedding clothes and lost them, or never had them in the first place. When he tried to gain entrance into the banquet, he was discovered and ejected.
So the 2nd reference applies to unbelieving survivors from the Great Tribulation who will be denied a place in the Kingdom for lack of the righteousness that comes by faith, and banished to the Outer Darkness instead.
Matt. 24:51

Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions.
But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matt. 24:45-51)
The Parable of the Servants has only an implied reference to the Outer Darkness, calling it a place for hypocrites where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Since that phrase accompanies every other mention of the Outer Darkness, I think it’s safe to include it in our study. The timing of this parable was established as early as Matt. 24:29-30 which makes every thing that follows pertain to those on Earth at the time of the 2nd Coming. As a matter of fact, all the Olivet Discourse parables describe the destinies of Tribulation Survivors. You can easily confirm this by also looking at Matt. 24:36-37, Matt. 25:1, and Matt. 25:14.
This parable is about those who will have held positions of spiritual leadership during the Great Tribulation. In the Millennial Kingdom, the Lord will elevate to a place of authority leaders who have kept the word of God through the intense hardship and persecution of the times, and have taught sound doctrine to the flocks entrusted to them. (Remember, no Tribulation survivor will enter the New Jerusalem, but will dwell on Earth during the Lord’s Millennial reign.)
But having forsaken the truth, the wicked servants will no longer be watching for the Lord’s return, ignoring the obvious fulfillment of prophecy all around them and ridiculing those whose child-like faith sustains them. They are the worst of all enemies because they’ll look and sound like friends. They’re like the one John describes as appearing to have the authority of the Lamb but who speaks the words of the Dragon (Rev. 13:11). The Greek word translated hypocrite was often used to describe an actor or pretender, someone who appears to be something he’s not. So for the third time we see the Outer Darkness as a place for unbelievers. In this case it’s those who have betrayed the trust placed in them.
Matt. 25:30

The Lord’s final reference to the Outer Darkness appears at the end of the Parable of the Talents.
“Again, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his property to them. To one he gave five talents of money, to another two talents, and to another one talent, each according to his ability. Then he went on his journey. The man who had received the five talents went at once and put his money to work and gained five more. So also, the one with the two talents gained two more. But the man who had received the one talent went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money.
“After a long time the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them. The man who had received the five talents brought the other five. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you entrusted me with five talents. See, I have gained five more.’
“His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’
“The man with the two talents also came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you entrusted me with two talents; see, I have gained two more.’
“His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’
“Then the man who had received the one talent came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed. So I was afraid and went out and hid your talent in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.’
“His master replied, ‘You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.
” ‘Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents. For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ (Matt. 25:14-30)
For a more complete treatment of the Parable of the Talents . The relevant points for this study are that like the other Olivet Discourse parables, the timing is after the 2nd coming, the judgment is on Earth, and the man who had his only talent confiscated demonstrated a complete lack of knowledge of and faith in his master. He thought of Him as a hard man who accepted credit He didn’t deserve and he was afraid the master would treat him unfairly. No believer feels that way about Jesus. His punishment was to be consigned to the outer darkness.
So in all four cases, the ones being judged are unbelievers and their punishment is to live in a state of total obscurity where they will experience extreme anguish and utter despair. The fact that there’s no expanded teaching on the outer darkness elsewhere in the Bible leads me to believe the Lord was speaking of a place we’re already familiar with, but describing it in a way that helps us understand how it will feel to be there.
Remember, the words obscurity, extreme anguish and utter despair are associated with the phrase Outer Darkness. To be there is to be cut off from the presence of the Lord and everyone else, existing in total obscurity. The dictionary defines anguish as excruciating or acute distress, suffering, or pain, and despair as a state of utter hopelessness.
That, my friends, is the consequence of unbelief. Whether you call it Hell, Hades, Gehenna, the Lake of Fire, or the Outer Darkness, it’s all the same and you wouldn’t want your worst enemy to spend even an hour there.
 
P

pre-trib

Guest
The truth is really as easy as 1+2=3 really it is.

#1 Scripture tells us that the 2nd coming is post tribulational (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27)
#2 Scripture tell us that raptus ie at the coming of Christ (1st Thess 4:15-17)
1 if the 2nd coming if after the Tribulation + 2 the rapture is at the 2nd coming + 3 the Rapture is after the Tribulation.

It is not rocket science, but rather very simple. The problem is people do not like the truth so they reject it.
Rocket science(smiling)...Luke 12;36..Who did the Lord marry before He returned?
 
Jun 29, 2010
398
0
0
You Quote:
Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

It is never stated that the jews waited till the last minute to ask the Lord into their heart,..But I will do an indepth study to see exactly what occurred at that moment

My Reply,..After doing some research,..I will agree that Israel(Jews) are saved at the last minute.
But! that privilage is not given unto the Gentiles.
Rather than debate our disagreements I will speak on our agreement and deduct that this shows that the Jews who miss the raptutre will be delivered from wrath and enter in to the Millennium in mortal bodies answering you ''unanswerable''question on who repopulates the millennium in the post trib view.

I will also ask you if this privilage is not also offered to the Gentile resistors, why are there mention of Gentiles in the millennium through out O.T. prophecy?
 
Jun 29, 2010
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Rocket science(smiling)...Luke 12;36..Who did the Lord marry before He returned?
Jesus is speaking in parable not talking about his actual marriage which will take place when he returns after the Tribulation to unite with His Bride.
 
P

pre-trib

Guest
Rather than debate our disagreements I will speak on our agreement and deduct that this shows that the Jews who miss the raptutre will be delivered from wrath and enter in to the Millennium in mortal bodies answering you ''unanswerable''question on who repopulates the millennium in the post trib view.

I will also ask you if this privilage is not also offered to the Gentile resistors, why are there mention of Gentiles in the millennium through out O.T. prophecy?
The answer is the Sheep and goat Judgement, with the sheep being those who helped His brothers through the horrific times just past and goats being those who didn't.
Some say His brothers are believers, whether Jew or Gentile, and others say they're specifically Jews, but the most important point is that these tribulation survivors aren't being judged by their works. Their works are being cited as evidence of their faith, as in James 2:18. To give aid to a believer, especially a Jew, during the Great Tribulation will take even more courage than it did in Hitler's Germany, and will be an offense punishable by death. Only a follower of Jesus, certain of His eternal destiny, would dare do it or even want to. Those who helped "His brothers" will have demonstrated their faith by their works and will be ushered live into the Kingdom. Those who refused to help will have condemned themselves to the outer darkness by this evidence of their lack of faith.
 
L

Lalilo

Guest
The problem with knowing a little bit about the future is that we do not have the wisdom to forsee the exact details. Learn from the past, live for the present and plan for the future. If you are walking in God's light you will have nothing to fear of the future.
 
Jun 29, 2010
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The problem with knowing a little bit about the future is that we do not have the wisdom to forsee the exact details. Learn from the past, live for the present and plan for the future. If you are walking in God's light you will have nothing to fear of the future.
The bible tells us exactly when Christ returns.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
 

VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
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The bible tells us exactly when Christ returns.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Yep, when He returns to set up His kingdom. Nothing says that He cannot come down close and call us up. You still have to wonder why the bride at the marriage feast of the Lamb is to cloth herself with fine white linen in preparation for the marriage feast, which is at some time before the return of our Lord to set up His physical kingdom. Maybe because she is really there? All I know is that I am part of His bride, and I don't plan on missing the marriage feast.
 
L

lecoop

Guest
The bible tells us exactly when Christ returns.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Rapture= TRUTH
Since this is a thread about the rapture, I am guessing you think these verses are speaking of the rapture.
It is strange: I live on earth. Every member of the church I have met lives on earth. The dead in Christ are buried UNDER the earth. Therefore, when Jesus descends with a shout, and the dead in Christ rise, they will rise FROM THE EARTH, right? And an instant later, when those alive and in Christ are caught up, we too are caught up FROM THE EARTH, right?

Then why in the world would ANYONE think verse 31 above is speaking of the rapture of the church? These are gathered from one end of HEAVEN to the other.

The truth is, this is NOT the rapture. First, the gathering is by angels, and at the rapture it is NOT. We will have bodies quite like the angels that will NEED no assistance from angels. Second, we are gathered from EARTH. Third, the TIMING is about 7 years off.

Conclusion? This gathering is NOT the rapture of the church, but is quite likely God gathering the Jews to bring them all back to Israel.

Coop
 
L

lecoop

Guest
Actually it is very well documented through out scripture. There are many scripture that speak of those that are left or remain on the day of the Lord that will have the opportunity to receive him as Messiah. Here are a couple
Zechariah 13
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.


Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


When the Jews see Jesus returning they will true to Him and be saved, they will miss the rapture yet be delivered from the wrath. The reason they mourn is because what He had endured at the hands, not for themselves, but for Him
How can you say they are delivered from wrath? They will not SEE Him until AFTER the 70th week has finished (It ended at the 7th vial) and AFTER the battle of Armageddon. The entire 70th week is wrath. So they will CERTAINLY see His wrath. Of course God will do what He can to protect those that are written in the book.

Coop
 
Jun 29, 2010
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How can you say they are delivered from wrath? They will not SEE Him until AFTER the 70th week has finished (It ended at the 7th vial) and AFTER the battle of Armageddon. The entire 70th week is wrath. So they will CERTAINLY see His wrath. Of course God will do what He can to protect those that are written in the book.

Coop
Depends on what the wrath is. The great Tribulation is not the wrath of God. The destruction of the wicked that takes place at Christ post trib return this is the wrath of God. Even the Church will have to survive the Tribulation.
 
P

pre-trib

Guest
The bible tells us exactly when Christ returns.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Matthew 24:29 states that both sun and moon will be darkened. This compares to:

Zechariah 14:6 “And it will be in that day, there shall not be light; the glorious ones will shrink.”

Joel 2:10 “The earth shall quake before them, the heavens shall shake. The sun and moon shall grow dark, and the stars shall gather in their light.”

Joel 3:15 “The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall gather in their light.”

Each of these references are in direct relation to the events of the Day of YHWH. All the celestial lights go dark.

This is in contrast to:

Revelation 6:12 “And I saw when He opened the sixth seal. And behold, a great earthquake occurred. And the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair; and the moon became as blood;”

. . . which compares to:

Joel 2:31 “The sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon to blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of YHWH.”

There is a very important difference between these two sets of descriptions.

The first set states that the sun “shall be darkened”, “shall grow dark”, and uses language that describes its physical state, that it becomes darkened, as Zechariah says, “there shall not be light”. This is telling us the physical state of the sun, and the other celestial lights, including the moon. Of course, the moon reflects the light from the sun, and if the sun becomes darkened, the moon will be darkened also.

The second set, however, uses phenomenal language, speaking in terms of appearance, “the sun became black”, the moon became blood”, as Joel prophesied would occur, not during the Day of YHWH, but before.

And, in fact, the phenomena prophesied, specifically, “the moon became blood”, cannot occur if the sun is actually darkened. If the sun were not emitting light, the moon would not either, of any color. The moon appears red during a lunar eclipse because the sun’s light is still reaching it. If the sun were to be darkened, none of the sun’s light would reach the moon, and it would not have any light at all.

The sun can appear black during an eclipse, for instance, without actually being darkened. If, for instance, a planetary mass of the correct size passed between the earth and the sun, at the correct distance, causing simultaneous solar and lunar eclipses, this would produce the phenomena described, a sun “black as sackcloth” and a “blood moon”.

On the other hand, causing the sun to stop emitting light could not produce the blood moon, only a darkened moon.

One might argue that God is not bound by physical laws, and I would of course agree. However, even so, a blood moon is emitting light. Zechariah prophesies there will not be light.

A "blood moon" means the sun must still be lit - not darkened.

Therefore, I have to conclude that these can only be separate events, having different direct causes.
 
P

pre-trib

Guest
Rapture= TRUTH
Since this is a thread about the rapture, I am guessing you think these verses are speaking of the rapture.
It is strange: I live on earth. Every member of the church I have met lives on earth. The dead in Christ are buried UNDER the earth. Therefore, when Jesus descends with a shout, and the dead in Christ rise, they will rise FROM THE EARTH, right? And an instant later, when those alive and in Christ are caught up, we too are caught up FROM THE EARTH, right?

Then why in the world would ANYONE think verse 31 above is speaking of the rapture of the church? These are gathered from one end of HEAVEN to the other.

The truth is, this is NOT the rapture. First, the gathering is by angels, and at the rapture it is NOT. We will have bodies quite like the angels that will NEED no assistance from angels. Second, we are gathered from EARTH. Third, the TIMING is about 7 years off.

Conclusion? This gathering is NOT the rapture of the church, but is quite likely God gathering the Jews to bring them all back to Israel.

Coop
Very Good!
 
Jun 29, 2010
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Originally Posted by forerunner

The bible tells us exactly when Christ returns.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Rapture= TRUTH
Since this is a thread about the rapture, I am guessing you think these verses are speaking of the rapture.
It is strange: I live on earth. Every member of the church I have met lives on earth. The dead in Christ are buried UNDER the earth. Therefore, when Jesus descends with a shout, and the dead in Christ rise, they will rise FROM THE EARTH, right? And an instant later, when those alive and in Christ are caught up, we too are caught up FROM THE EARTH, right?

Then why in the world would ANYONE think verse 31 above is speaking of the rapture of the church? These are gathered from one end of HEAVEN to the other.

The truth is, this is NOT the rapture. First, the gathering is by angels, and at the rapture it is NOT. We will have bodies quite like the angels that will NEED no assistance from angels. Second, we are gathered from EARTH. Third, the TIMING is about 7 years off.

Conclusion? This gathering is NOT the rapture of the church, but is quite likely God gathering the Jews to bring them all back to Israel.

Coop
Without going in to the multiple flaws you have made in your response. The fact is you were arguing a shadow. I never even sasid that Matthew 24 was speaking of the rapture (although it is). I said it was referring to the 2nd coming. Now that we know the 2nd coming if post tribulational all we need to do is show the rapture is at the coming of Christ. which is easy enough to do.

1st Thessalonians 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
 
P

pre-trib

Guest
Depends on what the wrath is. The great Tribulation is not the wrath of God. The destruction of the wicked that takes place at Christ post trib return this is the wrath of God. Even the Church will have to survive the Tribulation.
Actually the Wrath of God begins with Ezekiel 38;19.......Verse 20 is an exact match for revelation 6;12-17.............and just in case anyone here tries to claim that revelation 16 is revelation 6,...I have news for you,.....revelation 16 never mentions the sun turning black or the moon turning red.
Also there is a word change that distinguishes between revelation 16 and revelation 6.....revelation 6 says" great earthquake"............Revelation 16 says great earthquake such as "NEVER" has been on the earth.
Again the word change is present,....revelation 6......every mountain moved out of it's place,....revelation 16..........mountains not found
it is obvious that the earthquakes are more sever in revelation 16.

also to point out that the book of revelation is in chronological order.
Also,......the Wrath of God is the whole of the tribulation
 
P

pre-trib

Guest
Without going in to the multiple flaws you have made in your response. The fact is you were arguing a shadow. I never even sasid that Matthew 24 was speaking of the rapture (although it is). I said it was referring to the 2nd coming. Now that we know the 2nd coming if post tribulational all we need to do is show the rapture is at the coming of Christ. which is easy enough to do.

1st Thessalonians 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Both post trib and pre-trib agree that a rapture occurs "BEFORE" the Day of the Lord,..and that he Day of the Lord is Gods Wrath,....I can easily prove that your statement is very flawed.
First of all the Day of the Lord begins with Ezekiel 38,...which in turn occurs slightly prior to Daniels 70th week
Also,...I can prove that The days of noah does not fit into Revelation 16, in which occurs just before the Lord returns.
Do you wish to debate this?
 
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