Are women allowed to Preach?

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Nov 12, 2015
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I didn't really get that from the article dcon...but you really do submit to your children daily (according to the definition the author, Krupp gives) because you put their good before your own on a daily basis.

If you're asking about the rest of the authors definition: should you always confer with them or always allow their preferences over your own, no bible verse is needed to see the absurdity of that (chocolate for dinner every night because its your preference? Um...no. :D)

That article is only one chapter of her book. I'm fairly certain she might cover the raising of children. If I run across an article like that on the website, I'll let you know. She is a brilliant woman. Even I would like to hear her teaching on children! :)
 

proverbs35

Senior Member
Nov 10, 2012
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I would like to see verses in context that states clearly that Fathers are to be submissive to children.

I can easily find verses in numerous places that teaches children to be subject to their parents, honor their parents and obey their parents........
I don't know of any Biblical commands that expressly state that fathers should be submissive to their children. However, I am aware of 1 Biblical example.

Mordecai was Esther's adoptive father, but there came a season when it was necessary for Mordecai to follow Esther's orders.

So Mordecai went away and did everything as Esther had ordered him. Es 4:17

There are modern day examples of parents submitting to their children. Ec 3:1 states that "there is a time for everything." In life, many adult children have to make decisions for sick and/or elderly parents. This role reversal is known as parenting elderly parents or caregiving for elderly parents. Elderly parents often become subject to their adult children's decision making. It happens all the time.
Elderly parents very often have to submit to their children's authority (power of attorney) whether they like it or not.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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I didn't really get that from the article dcon...but you really do submit to your children daily (according to the definition the author, Krupp gives) because you put their good before your own on a daily basis.

If you're asking about the rest of the authors definition: should you always confer with them or always allow their preferences over your own, no bible verse is needed to see the absurdity of that (chocolate for dinner every night because its your preference? Um...no. :D)

That article is only one chapter of her book. I'm fairly certain she might cover the raising of children. If I run across an article like that on the website, I'll let you know. She is a brilliant woman. Even I would like to hear her teaching on children! :)
I got it from her statement.....the underlined below.....

Paul is saying there needs to be a general spirit of submission to one another on every level: wives to husbands, husbands to wives; children to parents, fathers to children; and slaves to masters, masters to slaves.
 
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Nov 12, 2015
9,112
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I got it from her statement.....the underlined below.....

Paul is saying there needs to be a general spirit of submission to one another on every level: wives to husbands, husbands to wives; children to parents, fathers to children; and slaves to masters, masters to slaves.
I think you rather meant to underline "fathers to children?"
 
Dec 12, 2013
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I don't know of any Biblical commands that expressly state that fathers should be submissive to their children. However, I am aware of 1 Biblical example.

Mordecai was Esther's adoptive father, but there came a season when it was necessary for Mordecai to follow Esther's orders.

So Mordecai went away and did everything as Esther had ordered him. Es 4:17

There are modern day examples of parents submitting to their children. Ec 3:1 states that "there is a time for everything." In life, many adult children have to make decisions for sick and/or elderly parents. This role reversal is known as parenting elderly parents or caregiving for elderly parents. Elderly parents often become subject to their adult children's decision making. It happens all the time.
Elderly parents very often have to submit to their children's authority (power of attorney) whether they like it or not.
Well....I do not think this would apply based upon the following...

a. Esther was Queen of Persia
b. Mordecai was her cousin (He brought up Hadassah, that is, Esther his uncle's daughter.)
 
A

AuntieAnt

Guest
I would like to see verses in context that states clearly that Fathers are to be submissive to children.

I can easily find verses in numerous places that teaches children to be subject to their parents, honor their parents and obey their parents........
How about the story of the lost (prodigal) son? The father humbled himself to run up the road to meet his son and then fell on his son's neck and cried. Then, even though the son was saying how sorry he was, the father didn't even acknowledge his son's sin and had a robe put on him and commanded the servants to throw a big celebration for his son. The father submitted to loving his son rather than rebuking him.
 

proverbs35

Senior Member
Nov 10, 2012
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Well....I do not think this would apply based upon the following...

a. Esther was Queen of Persia
b. Mordecai was her cousin (He brought up Hadassah, that is, Esther his uncle's daughter.)
Mordecai adopted Esther. Mordecai was her adoptive father. This is a well known fact.

Family members often adopt children from their own families. It's actually a preferred practice.

The fact that Esther and Mordecai were related does not negate the fact that he adopted her. Mordecai was Esther's adoptive father and the male family member with authority over her prior to her marriage.

This man had a very beautiful and lovely young cousin, Hadassah, who was also called Esther. When her father and mother died, Mordecai adopted her into his family and raised her as his own daughter.
Esther 2:7
 
Nov 12, 2015
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I would think you'd have to read the whole article, dcon, and understand her definition and explanation of "submission." And also, keep in mind that the article deals more with between husband and wife and even there, more with the spirit of submission, to one another, than with any "me, leader - you, submitter" attitude. So...I think you'd need to read the whole article.

And as I said, you submit to your children daily really, according to her definition. You submit to your whole family when you put their needs and care and growth over your own.



And I really don't think that you believe you are not to also honor your children...I know you! You would never dishonor your children!
 

proverbs35

Senior Member
Nov 10, 2012
827
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I would think you'd have to read the whole article, dcon, and understand her definition and explanation of "submission." And also, keep in mind that the article deals more with between husband and wife and even there, more with the spirit of submission, to one another, than with any "me, leader - you, submitter" attitude. So...I think you'd need to read the whole article.

And as I said, you submit to your children daily really, according to her definition. You submit to your whole family when you put their needs and care and growth over your own.

And I really don't think that you believe you are not to also honor your children...I know you! You would never dishonor your children!

The Bible says that we should honor EVERYONE.

Honor everyone: love the brotherhood, fear God, Honor the king. 1 Tim 2:17
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
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This is goofy,,,God the almighty has that there is to be peached a sermon and there is no man found to preach it. And again there is a special gift to a woman to preach the very sermon given to her and she chooses to preach the mans instead,lol when in the world will Timothy find a father to see him as a father and a mother to see as a mother?...
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
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To those of you that don't take me seriously, thank you. And to those of you who do take me seriously, thank you.

[video=youtube;pdiDywbVxyg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdiDywbVxyg[/video]
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
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There must be something I as a man cannot see about being a woman and living that role,something despicable and repugnant that requires this much effort to overturn,,,why on earth doesn't a woman see it as God given to be an help meet and that it is still precious to the sermon?...
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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I got it from her statement.....the underlined below.....
Paul is saying there needs to be a general spirit of submission to one another on every level: wives to husbands, husbands to wives; children to parents, fathers to children; and slaves to masters, masters to slaves.
You have quoted exactly what I was going to address, and what is really wrong with this teaching. The errors in this teaching need to be brought to everyone'e attention. I will quote this portion a little more extensively:

The pivotal verse is verse 21, the one that is so often omitted when quoting the portion in Ephesians 5 having to do with the submission issue. It says, “. . . be subject to one another in the fear of Christ.” One simply can not single out one portion of society, that is, one-half of the human race, and say that this Scripture tells them, and them alone, to submit. Rather, Paul is saying there needs to be a general spirit of submission to one another on every level: wives to husbands, husbands to wives; children to parents, fathers to children; and slaves to masters, masters to slaves.
Joanne Krupp is essentially ANOTHER FALSE TEACHER, and is another example of why God does not allow women to preach, teach, or assume authority within the local church.

What we find (after going through a lot of unnecessary verbiage) is that Krupp is doing a great job in EISEGESIS in order to promote her agenda. The Bible does NOT teach the submission of husbands to wives, fathers to children, masters to slaves.That is what the Feminists want to promote.

So what exactly does the general spirit of submission mean without having it contradict the specific commandment for wives to be subject unto their own husbands?

Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God. (Eph 5:21)

"In the fear of God" is the key to understanding this verse since this must be the motive for submission. But "one to another" is a general statement pertaining to all Christians within the local assembly, and corresponds to Philippians 2:1-4:

1 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,

2
Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

3
Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

4
Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

So here is what it really means to "submit yourselves one to another" -- being of one accord and one mind, not doing things through strife and vainglory, but esteeming others better than ourselves. Having humility of mind, and also concern for the problems and concerns of others.

One of the fundamental principles of Scripture is that Scripture does NOT contradict itself. So when God tells wives to submit themselves to their own husbands as unto the Lord, He backs it up with even stronger language:

Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives...For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement. (1 Pet 3:1,5,6).

What this passage says is that Sarah called Abraham "Master" (kurios = lord even implies ownership). And here is what "subjection" means in the above passage:

Strong's Concordance
hupotassó: to place or rank under, to subject, mid. to obey
Original Word: ὑποτάσσω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: hupotassó
Phonetic Spelling: (hoop-ot-as'-so)
Short Definition: I place under, subject to
Definition: I place under, subject to; mid, pass: I submit, put myself into subjection.

Now let every Christian ask himself/herself: If the wife is to obey the husband but the husband in turn is to obey the wife, would that not be ABSURD? And would that not contradict Scripture? The same principle applies if the fathers would be in submission to their children, and masters to their slaves. A world of absurdity!

None of this is to deny what obligations have been placed on husbands, parents, and masters (or employers) by Christ. That is a separate issue. But to turn Scripture on its head is unacceptable, and opposes the clear teaching of the Holy Spirit.
 
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J

jaybird88

Guest
You have quoted exactly what I was going to address, and what is really wrong with this teaching. The errors in this teaching need to be brought to everyone'e attention. I will quote this portion a little more extensively:


Joanne Krupp is essentially ANOTHER FALSE TEACHER, and is another example of why God does not allow women to preach, teach, or assume authority within the local church.

What we find (after going through a lot of unnecessary verbiage) is that Krupp is doing a great job in EISEGESIS in order to promote her agenda. The Bible does NOT teach the submission of husbands to wives, fathers to children, masters to slaves.That is what the Feminists want to promote.

So what exactly does the general spirit of submission mean without having it contradict the specific commandment for wives to be subject unto their own husbands?

Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God. (Eph 5:21)

"In the fear of God" is the key to understanding this verse since this must be the motive for submission. But "one to another" is a general statement pertaining to all Christians within the local assembly, and corresponds to Philippians 2:1-4:

1 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,

2
Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

3
Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

4
Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

So here is what it really means to "submit yourselves one to another" -- being of one accord and one mind, not doing things through strife and vainglory, but esteeming others better than ourselves. Having humility of mind, and also concern for the problems and concerns of others.

One of the fundamental principles of Scripture is that Scripture does NOT contradict itself. So when God tells wives to submit themselves to their own husbands as unto the Lord, He backs it up with even stronger language:

Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives...For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement. (1 Pet 3:1,5,6).

What this passage says is that Sarah called Abraham "Master" (kurios = lord even implies ownership). And here is what "subjection" means in the above passage:

Strong's Concordance
hupotassó: to place or rank under, to subject, mid. to obey
Original Word: ὑποτάσσω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: hupotassó
Phonetic Spelling: (hoop-ot-as'-so)
Short Definition: I place under, subject to
Definition: I place under, subject to; mid, pass: I submit, put myself into subjection.

Now let every Christian ask himself/herself: If the wife is to obey the husband but the husband in turn is to obey the wife, would that not be ABSURD? And would that not contradict Scripture? The same principle applies if the fathers would be in submission to their children, and masters to their slaves. A world of absurdity!

None of this is to deny what obligations have been placed on husbands, parents, and masters (or employers) by Christ. That is a separate issue. But to turn Scripture on its head is unacceptable, and opposes the clear teaching of the Holy Spirit.
it doesnt sound absurd to me, it sounds exactly like what Jesus taught.

Matthew 20
26It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, 27and whoever would be first among you must be your slave, 28even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
113
it doesnt sound absurd to me, it sounds exactly like what Jesus taught.

Matthew 20
26It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, 27and whoever would be first among you must be your slave, 28 even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
So you pull a passage out of context to prove your point? This is talking about Christian service. Those in leadership within the local assembly are to have the attitude of being servants. At the same time, Christians are instructed to obey them which have the rule over you.

INSTRUCTION TO ELDERS
Neither as being lords over
God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. (1 Pet 5:3)

INSTRUCTION TO THE FLOCK
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. (Heb 13:17)
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,602
13,861
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You have quoted exactly what I was going to address, and what is really wrong with this teaching. The errors in this teaching need to be brought to everyone'e attention. I will quote this portion a little more extensively:

Joanne Krupp is essentially ANOTHER FALSE TEACHER, and is another example of why God does not allow women to preach, teach, or assume authority within the local church.
This is not within the context of the local church, so your ire is misplaced.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
113
This is not within the context of the local church, so your ire is misplaced.
The passage in Ephesians is indeed within the context of the local church. Christians in Ephesus could not possibly apply what they were being taught to Christians in Jerusalem. So "submitting yourselves one to another" has a local application.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,602
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The passage in Ephesians is indeed within the context of the local church. Christians in Ephesus could not possibly apply what they were being taught to Christians in Jerusalem. So "submitting yourselves one to another" has a local application.
"This" meaning Christian Chat, an internet forum. She isn't teaching within a church. Her work was shared by another contributor.