Are women allowed to Preach?

[Ralph-]

when I was younger...way younger actually and a bit of an upstart (insert laughter from husband here as he would say I still am but he married me so...) anyway...

we had a youth group up at the country house and the 'speaker' decided to focus on women put a zipper on it and act as dumb as you can, so he quit reading the passage and quit just before men are told to love your wives with sacrificial love (like Christ) and I put my hand up and he (regretted it deeply) said 'yes?' and I said 'what about the next verse about men loving your wives?'

now I didn't know this would happen, but don't all the females go 'yeah! what about that?' and almost in unison...funniest moment of the day...well he stumbled and bumbled and there went his 'sermon'

dunno...but I suspect some men just don't want women doing it better than they do

don't care either way...I'll take the truth before prejudice any day and I have no desire to be a pastor or fight over it

if a woman speaks the truth from scripture and a man just speaks on what he picks and chooses to suit himself, what is that called exactly?

besides hypocrisy

As long as you're not using this as a rationalization that women can be in authority over men we'll laugh with you. Hey, some of us men are clods. What can I say? But that surely doesn't mean women can be in authority over us in the home and in the church.

I have more respect for this man than I do for the milk toast man who let's the woman rule over him.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

No comparison to the statement that Fathers are to submit to their children......the statement was made in light of a context that does not support the conclusion and there are NO verses that state a FATHER is to submit to the SON.....

that is a beautiful story, but I think it is more a case of 'love covers a multitude of sins' rather than submitting

that is a story of forgiveness and love

 

[Ralph-]

well that's just ridiculous

reminds me of the story of Jezebel and Ahab

why was the entire church dominated by her?

I could say why, but then we have a whole other thing going on and half the people here would not believe it anyway

He let her, of course.

We'd respect him more if he challenged her and he died for it, more than how he did handle it in his milk toast way. Deep down I think women agree with that. Deep down women want strong men, but for some their flesh won't let them actually submit to them. Even they, at the end of the day, have more respect for the strong man who leads, not for the milk toast man who surrenders his authority, though they like it better when he does.

By the way, I was wondering when the Jezebel thing would show itself. Is this the first mention of it in this thread?

 

[7seasrekeyed]

As long as you're not using this as a rationalization that women can be in authority over men we'll laugh with you. Hey, some of us men are clods. What can I say? But that surely doesn't mean women can be in authority over us in the home and in the church.

I have more respect for this man than I do for the milk toast man who let's the woman rule over him.

well exactly

there is a balance...as a woman, I can't think of anything more desirable than a man loving his wife that way

actually, it's a turn on...in every way...women are made to respond...I'm a strong personality and an independent thinker, but I do not agree with women running men...no more than I agree with a man ignoring how they are to love their wives

I've been 'on the platform' many times over the years...but never as a pastor...and I've taught home Bible studies...not my fault if men showed up and benefited from it...

by and large, many women try to take over...and usurp...mind you, pastors can be that way too...forgetting that Christ is the Head of ALL of us

 

[7seasrekeyed]

He let her, of course.

We'd respect him more if he challenged her and he died for it, more than how he did handle it in his milk toast way. Deep down I think women agree with that. Deep down women want strong men, but for some their flesh won't let them actually submit to them. Even they, at the end of the day, have more respect for the strong man who leads, not for the milk toast man who surrenders his authority, though they like it better when he does.

By the way, I was wondering when the Jezebel thing would show itself. Is this the first mention of it in this thread?

well of course...like Ahab...funny how that works...

no idea if this is the first mention of Jezebel or not...but please note I used the story because it fits, not because I want to blame everything on evil spirits (shhh)or the devil

I have no respect for women who try to take over and none for men who let them

mind you, men dominating women is not the model either...I understand that is prob not a question in this thread anyway

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I know exactly what you're saying. You only want to submit to the man you want to. And you're justifying it with the argument that they have to love me first and deserve my submission. I understand perfectly what you're saying. That reasoning comes from the flesh, not the Spirit.

You are free to give authority over you to whomever you would like.

I will give my approval and someone will hold sway with me if they love and serve. They don't even have to ask that I submit to them in love. In fact, they never would.

 

[Ralph-]

well exactly

there is a balance...as a woman, I can't think of anything more desirable than a man loving his wife that way

actually, it's a turn on...in every way...women are made to respond...I'm a strong personality and an independent thinker, but I do not agree with women running men...no more than I agree with a man ignoring how they are to love their wives

I've been 'on the platform' many times over the years...but never as a pastor...and I've taught home Bible studies...not my fault if men showed up and benefited from it...

by and large, many women try to take over...and usurp...mind you, pastors can be that way too...forgetting that Christ is the Head of ALL of us

I have no problem listening to a woman teach. And I have learned from and been edified by them. I do know it's my choice to listen or not to listen. As long as they aren't teaching in an authoritative, pastoral way or from a pastoral position I think they are in line with God's will in this matter.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I have no problem listening to a woman teach. And I have learned and been edified by the. I do know it's my choice to listen or not to listen. As long as they aren't teaching in an authoritative, pastoral way I think they are in line with God's will in this matter.

oh...ok

I always kind of left it open for people saying what they wanted to...questions etc...my model is teaching Christians to stand on their own 2 feet and not run after a word here or a word there...but learn to study and have a relationship with the Lord and not just wait to be spoon fed

I come off pretty strong in the forum here, but it's a forum...you can't have all the nuances and expressions etc that you do in a live setting...takes a long time to really get to know someone here...if at all...I generally keep it private

but I actually LOVE Bible studies and discussions....with both sexes...and ideas and such...gotta be one of my favorite things

I find people learn best when they participate and feel free to be who they are...within reason LOL!...I've had to skillfully shut some folks down who do try to take over...they are always around

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I have no problem listening to a woman teach. And I have learned from and been edified by them. I do know it's my choice to listen or not to listen. As long as they aren't teaching in an authoritative, pastoral way or from a pastoral position I think they are in line with God's will in this matter.

Define: "Teaching in an authoritative, pastoral way."

 

[Ralph-]

You are free to give authority over you to whomever you would like.

No I'm not.
Neither are you.

I can't decide who to obey and who not to obey (of those I'm supposed to obey) just because I don't like them or they aren't nice people. Neither can you.

For all the whining some woman do about being in submission, we men have to do it too. We have to submit to the authorities over us too you know. And we sure don't get to tell them we won't submit, and don't have to submit, unless they are good authorities.


"18Servants, be submissive to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and gentle, but also to those who are unreasonable."-1 Peter 2:18


Now do you see why I posted this before for you (and you didn't know why)?

Peter is not telling us we have a choice which God ordained authority we can submit to and which ones we don't have to, and can rule over if them if we want to. We have to trust God's will and do what's right despite the cost. This pleases God. This is the suffering we've been called to.

I don't like it anymore than you, Stunned, but that's the way it is, and since that's the way it is, that's the way, if you submit to it, God will reward you with joy and life. (Oh, I'm preaching to myself this morning, people. I need this every day.)

I will give my approval and someone will hold sway with me if they love and serve. They don't even have to ask that I submit to them in love. In fact, they never would.

I know. That's how our flesh operates. This is what I was taught about the love that Christians are characterized by. It's an unconditional love. It isn't a love that only loves if conditions suitable to itself are met first. That is how the world loves.

God's love is given without the need for a condition of the person being loved being met first. This is the teaching that the whole church has to have in their churches but which few have knowledge of. It's the narrow road that few find that leads to life. My counsel to you about finding a church was centered around this very thing.

You'll be hard pressed to find a church that has this knowledge and teaches it and leads people to the manifest life of Jesus. You won't find it in a church that has a woman pastor because by the very fact she is in rebellion to God by only submitting to authority based on her own personal (selfish) conditions she shows she does not have an insightful connection with God, and therefore, you will not benefit from her ministry. Don't waste your time going there.

 

[Ralph-]

oh...ok

I always kind of left it open for people saying what they wanted to...questions etc...my model is teaching Christians to stand on their own 2 feet and not run after a word here or a word there...but learn to study and have a relationship with the Lord and not just wait to be spoon fed

I come off pretty strong in the forum here, but it's a forum...you can't have all the nuances and expressions etc that you do in a live setting...takes a long time to really get to know someone here...if at all...I generally keep it private

but I actually LOVE Bible studies and discussions....with both sexes...and ideas and such...gotta be one of my favorite things

I find people learn best when they participate and feel free to be who they are...within reason LOL!...I've had to skillfully shut some folks down who do try to take over...they are always around

Oh, Lord! Why are you a whole country away from me? I could talk VOLUMES to you about this. I could have written this post.

Stunned needs a good fellowship. You're describing the model that actually works and grows people up. Too bad the church doesn't get it. The church needs another reformation. We've failed. But occasionally I talk to people who know God has a better way. I'm not a pastor but I often kick around the idea of starting a fellowship like this by me, and then starting a grass roots movement to raise these kinds of fellowships up all over the country.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

No I'm not.
Neither are you.

I can't decide who to obey and who not to obey (of those I'm supposed to obey) just because I don't like them or they aren't nice people. Neither can you.

For all the whining some woman do about being in submission, we men have to do it too. We have to submit to the authorities over us too you know. And we sure don't get to tell them we won't submit, and don't have to submit, unless they are good authorities.


"18Servants, be submissive to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and gentle, but also to those who are unreasonable."-1 Peter 2:18


Now do you see why I posted this before for you (and you didn't know why)?

Peter is not telling us we have a choice which God ordained authority we can submit to and which ones we don't have to, and can rule over if them if we want to. We have to trust God's will and do what's right despite the cost. This pleases God. This is the suffering we've been called to.

I don't like it anymore than you, Stunned, but that's the way it is, and since that's the way it is, that's the way, if you submit to it, God will reward you with joy and life. (Oh, I'm preaching to myself this morning, people. I need this every day.)




I know. That's how our flesh operates. This is what I was taught about the love that Christians are characterized by. It's an unconditional love. It isn't a love that only loves if conditions suitable to itself are met first. That is how the world loves.

God's love is given without the need for a condition of the person being loved being met first. This is the teaching that the whole church has to have in their churches but which few have knowledge of. It's the narrow road that few find that leads to life. My counsel to you about finding a church was centered around this very thing.

You'll be hard pressed to find a church that has this knowledge and teaches it and leads people to the manifest life of Jesus. You won't find it in a church that has a woman pastor because by the very fact she is in rebellion to God by only submitting to authority based on her own personal (selfish) conditions she shows she does not have a connection with God, and therefore, you will not benefit from her ministry. Don't waste your time going there.

This is a longish post so I will only address first what I am most concerned over, then will comment on anything else in a moment. You seem to have the impression that if I won't submit to someone because they are not walking in love but are rather demanding others be under some law, that this means I am refusing to love them. You equate submission as BEING love. This isn't so. Submission is not defined as love. Submission is the result of love. If someone is teaching obeying law and I therefore don't recognize them as having authority, it does not mean I don't love them.

 

[Ralph-]

This is a longish post so I will only address first what I am most concerned over, then will comment on anything else in a moment. You seem to have the impression that if I won't submit to someone because they are not walking in love but are rather demanding others be under some law, that this means I am refusing to love them. You equate submission as BEING love. This isn't so. Submission is not defined as love. Submission is the result of love. If someone is teaching obeying law and I therefore don't recognize them as having authority, it does not mean I don't love them.

You are just another victim of the church's misunderstanding about Paul's 'law vs. grace' thing.

You doing something because you're supposed to do it, and don't feel like doing it, is NOT 'law'.

This misunderstanding is easily the primary reason the church is in the pathetic state it is in today. This is the conclusion I have come to. You can trace almost every false doctrine back to the church's lack of knowledge about Paul's 'law vs. grace' teaching.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Oh, Lord! Why are you a whole country away from me? I could talk VOLUMES to you about this. I could have written this post.

Stunned needs a good fellowship. You're describing the model that actually works and grows people up. Too bad the church doesn't get it. The church needs another reformation. We've failed. But occasionally I talk to people who know God has a better way. I'm not a pastor but I often kick around the idea of starting a fellowship like this by me, and then starting a grass roots movement to raise these kinds of fellowships up all over the country.

actually I'm in FL...husband is American...however I am Canadian and take no blame for the current PM haha

I have seen people come to better knowledge and understanding...what is the purpose of teaching if not that?

 

[Ralph-]

Define: "Teaching in an authoritative, pastoral way."

Like the difference between Jesus teaching and just anyone else's teaching:


"for He (Jesus) was teaching them as one having authority, and not as their scribes."-Matthew 7:29


We all know by spiritual instinct this authority to teach exists. Describing it in words? Not so easy. But we all know this authority exists. I think examining Jesus in his ministry is how to learn the difference.


I'm also thinking about Paul's "not with words, but with power" statement.

 

[notuptome]

God will hold us all accountable? God holds us accountable presently. RIGHT NOW.

People should take into consideration that when they assume the role of a preacher on this site, they are held accountable RIGHT NOW. Whatever judgment they are using against others, will be used for them as well. Because people come to this site every day to be fed spiritually and if folks are posting things contrary to the liberty we have in the Lord Jesus Christ, they are in opposition to Christ RIGHT NOW.

The Holy God who created us all and put us on this earth, gave up His only Son that we could live freely in Him while on this earth, and so that others might come to know Him and be saved eternally. Either we are interfering in that plan and purpose, or we are in line with it. RIGHT NOW.

Here and now we have space to repent. At the judgment seat of Christ is the final reconciliation. Not that we can lose our salvation but we see if what we have done is pleasing to the Lord.

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Dino246]

What has it to do with logic? Is our logic the measure ore God's word?
Would you say a miracle is logic? Ore would you deney a miracle, because its not logic?

I don't believe that I responded to this yet...

Of course human logic does not stand above God's word, but it shouldn't need to. Logic begins with a right understanding of God, that He is truth, and He has integrity. Actually, I find nothing illogical about the miracles recorded in Scripture.

What I find illogical about the argument that women cannot teach because Eve was created after Adam is that there is no point of connection between the two statements. It's a non sequitur to me, so I dig deeper. Having done some deeper digging, I have found an explanation that makes perfect sense of the whole passage.

Well, we find nothing about: wearing shoes, singing ore giving testimony about healing in the church, but we find scripture which says that Woman should not Teach (preach)in the Church and have Authority over man.
Yes we have different understanding, but it Wonders me that this understanding which you defend is only around 150 years old. Where all the scolars and churchleaders wrong before this Time? Had they a wrong understanding from the scripture?
If ephesians 5 would be consequent lives out, Woman would have no reason to fight for their God given Rights.

I see Genesis 3:16 as a consequence of sin, not a punishment for it, nor a command to live a certain way. The consequence includes the statement, "but he shall rule over you". The way that non-Christian men treat women is a fulfillment of this: men rule over women, often in very unpleasant ways. Worldly men in the church have introduced all manner of unbiblical teachings and practices, so it doesn't surprise me at all that women have been excluded from church ministry for most of its history. I only have to look as far as the Catholic church, which also forbids its priests from marrying, to find an example.

I have not done the historical research to answer your question fully, but I suspect that as women pressed for the right to vote, to work, and for other legitimate freedoms, that they also looked at Scripture and saw inconsistencies in both the translations and in church practices. For myself, I look at Scripture and also read what I can find relevant to the subject.

 

[Ralph-]

actually I'm in FL...husband is American...however I am Canadian and take no blame for the current PM haha

I have seen people come to better knowledge and understanding...what is the purpose of teaching if not that?

I lived in Florida for twenty years. You can have it, lol.

Is it true Trudeau is Fidel Castro's son?


Small teaching groups is what 'church' is all about, IMO. The church doesn't think so. It's still locked into it's golden calf style of meeting and worship. I've kind of resigned myself to it. Which means I don't have a church. And honestly, don't expect to have one.

 

[Ralph-]

Submission is not defined as love.

But obedience to God is.

Submission is the result of love.

This can mean one of two things:

1) If you love me first, I will submit to you. (bad, very bad--the cause of all harm in the world)

2) I love you with God's love, therefore I will submit to you as is fitting and ordained in the Lord. (good)

If someone is teaching obeying law and I therefore don't recognize them as having authority, it does not mean I don't love them.

You do not have to submit spiritually to anyone who teaches false doctrine. That goes without saying. That's why I won't submit to a woman pastor....besides it being wholly unfitting just by the nature of things.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Men, this pretty much sums up how women view the gang of men on CC who continue to harp about women. When men demand women submit to them, and blather on & on about what God commands of us, you rob women of the opportunity to love of their own free will. And you look like a bunch of rabid barking dogs trying to corner us into your belief system. You don't appear godly, that's for sure!

And godly women do not respond to THE WORD OF GOD in this manner. Only a rebellious woman makes such comments.

Why have you not simply agreed with Scripture and what it teaches in this regard? There is no "gang of men" who look like "rabid barking dogs" in this context.

All Christian churches since apostolic times have accepted that the Bible does indeed clearly teach that (a) Christian women are to be in subjection to their own husbands, (b) women are to be silent in the churches, and (c) women are forbidden to preach, teach, or usurp authority within the local assembly.

Those Scriptures have already been presented in this and other threads, and need not be repeated. So what you are objecting to is God's authority over your life and the authority of Scripture over all Christian doctrines and practices and over Christian churches. If these teachings can be dismissed and disregarded, then nothing remains sacrosanct. Scripture tells us that rebellion is as witchcraft.