Are women allowed to Preach?

[Nehemiah6]

*Except the Law does not say that.

So then -- according to you -- the Holy Spirit was in error since those are the words of God given to Paul to be written down for posterity (1 Cor 14:34). That is pretty bold for any Christian. If the Law did not say that, how could it possibly be in Scripture? But if the Law does say that, then you are not only mistaken, but you owe an apology to every Christian who believes that that is Scripture.

In this instance "the Law" is a reference to the Torah, and in particular to Genesis 3:16, and most commentators are agreed that this is where Paul derives his authority BY DIVINE INSPIRATION.

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

It may also be possible that there are other OT passages which support this teaching, but regardless of what is referenced, if it is in NT Scripture it is true for all churches.

John Gill also goes on to say:
"The extraordinary instances of Deborah, Huldah, and Anna, must not be drawn into a rule or example in such cases."

But that is exactly what you are doing. You are giving examples of prophetesses, and failing to give more weight to what is stipulated in Scripture regarding the operation of Christian churches. Paul was fully aware of these few prophetesses, but it is God who instructed Paul to write what he wrote, but you are boldly denying that what he wrote is true. Then how do you know what is true and what is false in the Scriptures you quote all the time?

 

[Shamah]

You're right, I can find it very easily in the Law where it says for women to "subject" themselves. Be glad to show it to you as you requested.

Titus 2:5 [SUP]5[/SUP]to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God.

1 Timothy 2:11-15 [SUP]11[/SUP]A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. [SUP]12[/SUP]I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. [SUP]13[/SUP]For Adam was formed first, then Eve. [SUP]14[/SUP]And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. [SUP]15[/SUP]But women will be saved through childbearing-if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Submission is the same as subjecting

Ephesians 5:22 [SUP]22[/SUP]Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the LORD.

Again submitting is the same as subjecting

Is that enough for you ? If not, I'm sure I can find several other verses to add. It is within the Bible numerous times.

So Paul quotes his own wirtings? and his writings are the Law?

Where does the Law say?

1 Corinthians 14:34, “Let your women be silent in the assemblies, for they are not allowed to speak, but let them subject themselves, as the Law also says*. and if they wish to learn whatever, let them ask their own husbands at home, for it is improper for women to speak in an assembly.”

2 Tim 3:15, "and that from a babe you have known the Set-apart Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for deliverance through belief in Messiah יהושע."

So he wrote letters and used them as proof of the Law?

OK

 

[Shamah]

So then -- according to you -- the Holy Spirit was in error since those are the words of God given to Paul to be written down for posterity (1 Cor 14:34). That is pretty bold for any Christian. If the Law did not say that, how could it possibly be in Scripture? But if the Law does say that, then you are not only mistaken, but you owe an apology to every Christian who believes that that is Scripture.

In this instance "the Law" is a reference to the Torah, and in particular to Genesis 3:16, and most commentators are agreed that this is where Paul derives his authority BY DIVINE INSPIRATION.

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

It may also be possible that there are other OT passages which support this teaching, but regardless of what is referenced, if it is in NT Scripture it is true for all churches.

John Gill also goes on to say:
"The extraordinary instances of Deborah, Huldah, and Anna, must not be drawn into a rule or example in such cases."

But that is exactly what you are doing. You are giving examples of prophetesses, and failing to give more weight to what is stipulated in Scripture regarding the operation of Christian churches. Paul was fully aware of these few prophetesses, but it is God who instructed Paul to write what he wrote, but you are boldly denying that what he wrote is true. Then how do you know what is true and what is false in the Scriptures you quote all the time?

So where does genesis 3:16 say women can't speak, especially when women were prophets of YHWH?

Also Paul was not the sent one we must obey, he grew up a phraisee

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 5:18, "For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Philippians 2:6, "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God."[/FONT]




[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 14:28, "You have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If you loved me, you would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."

your understanding is lacking.
[/FONT]

 

[loyaldisciple]

So Paul quotes his own wirtings? and his writings are the Law?

Where does the Law say?

1 Corinthians 14:34, “Let your women be silent in the assemblies, for they are not allowed to speak, but let them subject themselves, as the Law also says*. and if they wish to learn whatever, let them ask their own husbands at home, for it is improper for women to speak in an assembly.”

2 Tim 3:15, "and that from a babe you have known the Set-apart Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for deliverance through belief in Messiah יהושע."

So he wrote letters and used them as proof of the Law?

OK

Apparently you don't understand the simple fact that God gave authority unto Paul to set the law governing the church.

Romans 13:1 [SUP]1[/SUP]Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

Acts 9:15 - Jesus personally appeared to Paul (vv 1-9), then told Ananias to teach and baptize him because Paul was "a chosen vessel" to preach Jesus' name to Gentiles, etc.
Acts 26:16 - Jesus said that He had appeared to Paul to make him a minister and witness of what he had seen. [Acts 22:14,15]
Romans 1:1; Galatians 1:1 - So, Paul repeatedly affirmed in his letters that he had been "called to be an apostle," not by men, but by Jesus Christ.


2 Peter 3:15,16 - Peter classed Paul's writings along with other Scripture. This endorses Paul's writings as truth, including when those epistles claim that Paul was an apostle.
Galatians 2:7-9; Acts 15:22-32 - Other apostles and prophets confirmed Paul's claim to be inspired and to be a faithful preacher.
Acts 13:1-4 - Luke recorded that the Holy Spirit recognized Paul as one called by the Spirit to preach.


There is no doubt Paul had the authority to set law governing the church. Many people today just would rather not go by those laws.

 

[Shamah]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 7:16-17, "Yahshua answered, them, and said: My doctrine is not Mine, but His Who sent Me. If any man will do His will, he will know about this teaching, whether it comes from YHWH, or whether I am speaking of My own authority."[/FONT]

Apparently you don't understand the simple fact that God gave authority unto Paul to set the law governing the church.

Romans 13:1 [SUP]1[/SUP]Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

Acts 9:15 - Jesus personally appeared to Paul (vv 1-9), then told Ananias to teach and baptize him because Paul was "a chosen vessel" to preach Jesus' name to Gentiles, etc.
Acts 26:16 - Jesus said that He had appeared to Paul to make him a minister and witness of what he had seen. [Acts 22:14,15]
Romans 1:1; Galatians 1:1 - So, Paul repeatedly affirmed in his letters that he had been "called to be an apostle," not by men, but by Jesus Christ.


2 Peter 3:15,16 - Peter classed Paul's writings along with other Scripture. This endorses Paul's writings as truth, including when those epistles claim that Paul was an apostle.
Galatians 2:7-9; Acts 15:22-32 - Other apostles and prophets confirmed Paul's claim to be inspired and to be a faithful preacher.
Acts 13:1-4 - Luke recorded that the Holy Spirit recognized Paul as one called by the Spirit to preach.


There is no doubt Paul had the authority to set law governing the church. Many people today just would rather not go by those laws.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 7:16-17, "Yahshua answered, them, and said: My doctrine is not Mine, but His Who sent Me. If any man will do His will, he will know about this teaching, whether it comes from YHWH, or whether I am speaking of My own authority."[/FONT]


so Paul was the first Pope? that can declare religious law?


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Revelation 21:1, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away." [/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love YHWH your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. (Deut 6:5) This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. (Lev 19:18) On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My teachings will not pass away.”


[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 7:16-17, "Yahshua answered, them, and said: My doctrine is not Mine, but His Who sent Me. If any man will do His will, he will know about this teaching, whether it comes from YHWH, or whether I am speaking of My own authority."
[/FONT]

 

[Mem]

Yes I am serious. Save the KJV-only discussion for the other thread.

That the KJV is a correct translation is a staple of the argument against women preachers, since the KJV is worded to read exactly so.

There really can be no argument, here, in that proof text cited from it (the KJV) is indeed written with that lean and does say what it what those that site it to say.

And, the tragic irony of that is that the avid KJVO'er have to disregard the historical evidence that leans toward the high probability of inadvertently submit to the authorization of a fairily homosexual ruler, since admitting the possibility would be akin to admitting to having been persuaded of one with questionable sensibilities.

 

[Gabriel2020]

ACTS; 18; 24-26; And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man,and mighty in the scriptures,came to Ephesus, 25; This man was instructed in the way of the Lord;and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. 26; And began to speak boldly in the synagogue; whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard,they took him unto them,and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly. .........................................We have seen this in many churches where where the pastor having an intense spirit,and enthusiasm for the word of God but not the Holy Spirit. These two women that had the Holy Spirit pulled him aside and explained to him the gospel more clearly. They did not baptize him in the Holy spirit ,but they sent word about Apollos coming to Ephesus, and where he stood. This is when Paul arrived and baptized him and others with the Holy Ghost, because they had not known of a Holy Ghost. A lot of people for several generations in churches have heard of the Holy Ghost, and have rejected him. These women were part of the apostles ministry in various areas ,but never taught or preached in the churches. Some of the women had their homes set up as churches ,but was never in authority to teach or preach to the men. Your sons and daughters shall prophesy,, meaning uttering out a divine message from God, or a word of knowledge to thee church.

 

[loyaldisciple]

Jaybird, God did say this! But, he said it in Greek, to a certain audience of one (Timothy) regarding a local situation. The KJV and all subsequent versions have missed translating “authentein” correctly.

It is a word that only appears once in the Bible. It is an infinitive - so “to ...... “ not “exercise authority over” which is a noun, a verb and a preposition. And it is NOT exousia, which is the noun that really means “authority.” The one that Paul uses over and over to mean “authority.” The word found 102 times in the NT.

So, why did Paul use authentein, instead of exousia? Because he didn’t want to say, “exercise authority over” he wanted it to say, “to domineer” which is what the priestesses of Ephesus were doing.

And pairing “not teach” with “remain quiet” is actuallty how the rabbinical students were instructed to learn. And when they became rabbis, then they were allowed to teach. And so were women, as we have many examples of women teaching in the NT.

Paul is true, and the Bible is true! It hasn’t been translated properly! We won’t even get into the fact that 2 disputed verses don’t make a doctrine. (Disputed because of translational issues, and things we don’t understand, not because the verses are not true, in the context they were written!)

OK it's Monday so I will now set the record straight as to how this ( in green ) is false teaching.

So, why did Paul use authentein, instead of exousia? Because he didn’t want to say, “exercise authority over” he wanted it to say, “to domineer” which is what the priestesses of Ephesus were doing.

First of all, depending upon what scholars you quote, the word authentein is not interpreted the same. If you choose to listen to feminists scholars then naturally it isn't going to be interpreted as meaning authority. However, when listening to the many other scholars it is interpreted as meaning to "usurp" authority. This is the wording in the King James Bible. The word "usurp" means to "seize", so when Paul said women are not to "usurp" authority he was saying women are not to "seize" authority. And when Paul was warning the women not to seize authority, then who was he warning them not to seize it from ? That would be man, of course. For the woman to "seize" any authority then someone else must have already possessed it, right ? Of course someone else already possessed it and that was man.

1TIMOTHY 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

1TIMOTHY 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

1TIMOTHY 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve

And pairing “not teach” with “remain quiet” is actuallty how the rabbinical students were instructed to learn. And when they became rabbis, then they were allowed to teach. And so were women, as we have many examples of women teaching in the NT.

The above ( in green ) can also very easily be refuted as it is completely irrelevant to the conversation at hand. It makes absolutely no difference what the rabbinical students were instructed to do as we are not talking about them here . Here we are talking only about women in the church.

Paul WAS given authority to govern the church And this is what he said.

1COR 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

So, it is clear that a woman is not to "usurp", "seize" or "possess" authority over a man nor to "teach" a man in the church. She is told not to even speak in the church. So, it is obvious she is not to be a preacher inside of a church. The scripture could not be any more clear regarding this subject.

 

[wolfwint]

On this Resurrection Sunday, 4/1/18, it's so fitting that Jesus appeared to women first, after he rose from the dead. Jesus gave the women a message, an instruction to give to his 11 disciples, "Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me.” Matthew 28:10

Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. Matthew 28:16

I'm so glad that the disciples listened to the women and went to Galilee to meet with Jesus. Jesus gave the women a message, an instruction for the men.

Yes, this is true! Thats our Lord. He used witnisses which had no worth on their time. And he was concerned about suffering woman which went to the grave to still serve him, even in his death. But it has nothing to do with the womans role in the church.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

You and I (and others who present the Word in this context) will be told that those were just Paul's mysogynistic opinions which should be disregarded by enlightened women today. Oh, and don't forget that the *cultural norms* of those days are no longer valid. And never forget that women are smarter than men regardless of anything that Paul says. Oh, and don't forget Blondie and Dagwood either, since they represent the norm:

Obsess much?
Like I said to the other one. You have your own control issue. No one here has accused Paul of misogyny nor are we claiming women are cleverer than men. You are bringing the modern feminist arguments in as a method of accusing the Christian ladies here of holding those views. I certainly don't line up with the feminist movement.

You are falsely accusing as you so often do. Your post reeks of an irrational fear of losing control.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

I am also not opposed to women singing in the choir in church.

Well that's very big of you sir. You're sure that doesn't contradict the word of God?

 

[loyaldisciple]

Well that's very big of you sir. You're sure that doesn't contradict the word of God?

I can assure you that in itself that does not contradict the word of God because "singing" is not exactly the same as "talking" ... And if you do not wish to stand up for feminism, then why do you regularly defend the women that do ? When they attempt to have you believe that it is ok to have women preachers, they lead you into the direction of feminism. That is exactly what that is.

 

[wolfwint]

I don't believe that I responded to this yet...

Of course human logic does not stand above God's word, but it shouldn't need to. Logic begins with a right understanding of God, that He is truth, and He has integrity. Actually, I find nothing illogical about the miracles recorded in Scripture.

What I find illogical about the argument that women cannot teach because Eve was created after Adam is that there is no point of connection between the two statements. It's a non sequitur to me, so I dig deeper. Having done some deeper digging, I have found an explanation that makes perfect sense of the whole passage.



I see Genesis 3:16 as a consequence of sin, not a punishment for it, nor a command to live a certain way. The consequence includes the statement, "but he shall rule over you". The way that non-Christian men treat women is a fulfillment of this: men rule over women, often in very unpleasant ways. Worldly men in the church have introduced all manner of unbiblical teachings and practices, so it doesn't surprise me at all that women have been excluded from church ministry for most of its history. I only have to look as far as the Catholic church, which also forbids its priests from marrying, to find an example.

I have not done the historical research to answer your question fully, but I suspect that as women pressed for the right to vote, to work, and for other legitimate freedoms, that they also looked at Scripture and saw inconsistencies in both the translations and in church practices. For myself, I look at Scripture and also read what I can find relevant to the subject.

But, that woman are not set in authority Position in the church we are not only find in the so called churchhistory. We find it also in the time were the NT was written. The examples which are used for to defend that woman can teach/preach ore lead a church ore pastor a church are in no time clear. They have to be interpretet and base on aassumtions. If the examples would be clear we would not discuss it. But they are not. Thats the cruix and this why we discuss it. And we also can not drew the wheel back. But I can answer to the question of the tzhrea with the biblical answer: No, if this means that a woman can have authority over man. She can preach in front of woman, ore children. She can talk to man in the way of Aquilla and Prpricilla, but nowwhere I find a hint that Priscilla preached in a church. Only what you can give me are assumptions, but no single proof. Ore that Phoebe served in a church, says nothing about what she did. No proof that she preached in the church where she served.
Bring me a proof and I change my mind.
That you interprete genesis 3 in this way you can do, but for me is not man wisdom the measure, but what the bible says. And this is clear for me. Why Paul used it then as reason? Only for joke ore as an point to discuss? For the Timothy it was clear what Paul wrote. He must not " dig deeper" for to understand it.

 

[SassyServant]

GOD calls everyone. We are all one with God. Are women allowed to preach should be a personal question between you and God himself. God called me to preach then I will do what my Father says despite me being a woman. Only do what God tells you to do!

 

[loyaldisciple]

Well that's very big of you sir. You're sure that doesn't contradict the word of God?

You ladies have the wrong impression that I somehow have any contempt for you. What is truth is that I simply have great respect for the word of God and wish to go by His orders.

 

[loyaldisciple]

GOD calls everyone. We are all one with God. Are women allowed to preach should be a personal question between you and God himself. God called me to preach then I will do what my Father says despite me being a woman. Only do what God tells you to do!

It should not be left to us to decide "what" to believe. God has clearly told us the truth and it is our "duty" as a Christian to believe it, not to question it for our own desires. God, in his verses, has told us "all" what to do when it comes to His written commands. He does not come to us individually and say it is ok to break them. I don't believe He would defy His own word in such a way as you suggest.

 

[wolfwint]

Okay, so then, I get that IF I can count on this particular word, then I am right... What I'm not getting is... when can I not count on it as not saying that Phoebe serves in the word

I meant nowhere is a Proof that Phoebe served in the Church with the Word. So you cant Count her mentioning as Servant as a Proof that she had preached.

 

[loyaldisciple]

Well that's very big of you sir. You're sure that doesn't contradict the word of God?

I will tell you truth about something else Lucy. I have come to learn very well that those who will disregard scripture in one instance in favor of applying their own understanding will do that in several instances, making them wrong on each and every one of those occasions. Anyone, and I do mean anyone that leads you to disregard any scripture in favor of their own earthly opinions are not your ally. They are leading you to believe what is false. Maybe they are not purposely leading you to believe what is false because they are deceived themselves, but they ARE leading you to believe what is false.

 

[SassyServant]

I'm talking about personal relationships with God. Hearing God's voice. If God has spoken and commanded you to do something and called you to preach His word than it wouldn't be wrong to do so. maybe u interpreting that God doesn't allow female preachers is all misinterpreted in the first place just as scholars minterpreted the coming of the Messiah and called Jesus blasmephist. What I'm trying to say is.. what if I told you that as a woman ..God called me to preach...would you then call me a liar and says that can't be possible cause of own ur interpretation of the Bible or say it's not from God or making this up and call it all blasphemy ? Do what God tells you to do..in the end everything is between you and God.

 

[loyaldisciple]

I meant nowhere is a Proof that Phoebe served in the Church with the Word. So you cant Count her mentioning as Servant as a Proof that she had preached.

Do you notice wolfwint how people will so often either not understand your words or attempt to twist your words in order to fit their own beliefs and agenda ? The liberals are absolutely masters at this practice.