How To Be Un-Saved

[eternally-gratefull]

Christ's sacrifice satisfied the breaking of God's law, not the keeping of it.

If a person is on death row for murder, they can't "un-kill" their victim. The law is powerless to save them once its broken. The law must be satisfied with their death...unless they are completely forgiven of the crime by the judge...but even then the law must be satisfied.

Let's say their attorney works out a deal with the judge where he dies in the place of the murderer as long as the murderer is forgiven of the crime...the judge agrees, the attorney dies, the law is satisfied, the once murderer goes free completely cleared; saved from the consequences.


Questions:

Is the murderer free to murder again since they were already forgiven of murder once? No.

Is the law of "do not murder" erased? No.

Is crime (i.e. broken law) hanging over him for murder erased? Yes.

Are all future murders covered by the one-time deal made by the attorney? No.

Is it true that if the murderer commits murder again that the attorney can't make the same deal on his behalf anymore because he already died, and all that waits for the murderer is the judge's sentencing? Yes.


Thus the person, once forgiven of the crime, is required to "murder no more"; to obey the law else something worse will happen to them, which is exactly what Christ said constantly to those he forgave.

But say they still willfully say to themselves, "hah! I was forgiven of murder once! I can go and murder all I want now! I'll be forgiven again!" purposely going on a killing spree. They trample the attorney's one-time gift, treating it like it's a common occurrence that can be repeated, and reap the consequences of their crime, with no one left to save them.

This is how to be un-saved.

----

Thankfully most haven't been enlightened to this truth just yet (i.e. fully understanding it) so most remain under the judge's mercy and permissive will in the mean time.

there are problems wiht this line of reasoning

1. Jesus died 2000 years ago. (ALL our sins were future tense 2000 years ago)
2. If he only paid for certain sins. and not all of them, Once we have used up the sins he paid for and sin more. we are doomed forever. there is no more sacrifice for sin.
3. Why do you focus on murder. If you know to do right and do not do it, you have sinned, So you would be just as guilty of a murderer. so using your reasoning, that person would join the murder in hell. Because Jesus did not pay for it.

Your line of reasoning is flawed. and is just a strawman.

 

[dcontroversal]

there are problems wiht this line of reasoning

1. Jesus died 2000 years ago. (ALL our sins were future tense 2000 years ago)
2. If he only paid for certain sins. and not all of them, Once we have used up the sins he paid for and sin more. we are doomed forever. there is no more sacrifice for sin.
3. Why do you focus on murder. If you know to do right and do not do it, you have sinned, So you would be just as guilty of a murderer. so using your reasoning, that person would join the murder in hell. Because Jesus did not pay for it.

Your line of reasoning is flawed. and is just a strawman.

When people, through theology, quantify and qualify sins into nice neat little boxes....the end result is a partial salvation that only some can partake of....the bible is clear....one little white lie makes one as guilty of breaking the law and sin as a murder in the back alley behind the bar....obviously UNDER the law the punishments were different, but under GRACE both are sinners and either forgiven and saved eternally or still under the condemnation of the law and as lost as a goose....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

When people, through theology, quantify and qualify sins into nice neat little boxes....the end result is a partial salvation that only some can partake of....the bible is clear....one little white lie makes one as guilty of breaking the law and sin as a murder in the back alley behind the bar....obviously UNDER the law the punishments were different, but under GRACE both are sinners and either forgiven and saved eternally or still under the condemnation of the law and as lost as a goose....

when people come in screaming about murderers. A red flag immediately goes off. If they understood the penalty of all sin. of all sin, They would not come in screaming murderers. they would come in preaching grace because they realized how forgiven they are.

 

[Yahshua]

there are problems wiht this line of reasoning

1. Jesus died 2000 years ago. (ALL our sins were future tense 2000 years ago)
2. If he only paid for certain sins. and not all of them, Once we have used up the sins he paid for and sin more. we are doomed forever. there is no more sacrifice for sin.
3. Why do you focus on murder. If you know to do right and do not do it, you have sinned, So you would be just as guilty of a murderer. so using your reasoning, that person would join the murder in hell. Because Jesus did not pay for it.

Your line of reasoning is flawed. and is just a strawman.

I don't think so..

1. Truly Christ died 2000 years ago. But Christ died *once* for all, not again and again and again for all. And he didn't die for ANY of the sins of the "new man" because the new man doesn't sin because Christ's seed is in him. He died for ALL of the sins of the "old man" because it's the old man who is supposed to die, crucified with Christ. That hasn't happened yet for most.

2. Christ's sacrifice isn't a "credit balance" to draw from. It's a cleansing (with spiritual bleach). A complete restart. This is exactly why I say most if not all people today aren't there yet but are still under God's mercy while we learn. Because once this happens; once we're truly are...

a) Enlightened (full knowledge of the truth)
b) Having tasted of the heavenly Gift
c) Having shared in the Holy Spirit
d) Having tasted of the actual Powers of the age to come (as detailed in acts)

We are no longer from Adam at all.

If then we sin willfully? After all of that?? There's nothing left for us. Nothing. This is why Judas is forever lost as an example. He tasted of the kingdom.

3. I think you just accused me of a strawman argument while creating your own? Focusing on murder in my example doesn't deny any other sins you mentioned as being sins too. No one said that not doing right wasn't a sin.

 

[dcontroversal]

I don't think so..

1. Truly Christ died 2000 years ago. But Christ died *once* for all, not again and again and again for all. And he didn't die for ANY of the sins of the "new man" because the new man doesn't sin because Christ's seed is in him. He died for ALL of the sins of the "old man" because it's the old man who is supposed to die, crucified with Christ. That hasn't happened yet for most.

2. Christ's sacrifice isn't a "credit balance" to draw from. It's a cleansing (with spiritual bleach). A complete restart. This is exactly why I say most if not all people today aren't there yet but are still under God's mercy while we learn. Because once this happens; once we're truly are...

a) Enlightened (full knowledge of the truth)
b) Having tasted of the heavenly Gift
c) Having shared in the Holy Spirit
d) Having tasted of the actual Powers of the age to come (as detailed in acts)

We are no longer from Adam at all.

If then we sin willfully? After all of that?? There's nothing left for us. Nothing. This is why Judas is forever lost as an example. He tasted of the kingdom.

3. I think you just accused me of a strawman argument while creating your own? Focusing on murder in my example doesn't deny any other sins you mentioned as being sins too. No one said that not doing right wasn't a sin.

You just stated clearly that you are a sinless perfectionist, quantified and qualified sin, rejected a plethora of scripture that deals with sin in a believer, denied the verbiage of John and proven to many that you do not understand the scripture....

Judas was NEVER saved and then LOST it...another false stance....

He is called a devil from the beginning <-BY JESUS
A thief that holds the bag
THE SON of PERDITION

You are so far off base that it is as tragic as can be.

 

[BillG]

Christ's sacrifice satisfied the breaking of God's law, not the keeping of it.

If a person is on death row for murder, they can't "un-kill" their victim. The law is powerless to save them once its broken. The law must be satisfied with their death...unless they are completely forgiven of the crime by the judge...but even then the law must be satisfied.

Let's say their attorney works out a deal with the judge where he dies in the place of the murderer as long as the murderer is forgiven of the crime...the judge agrees, the attorney dies, the law is satisfied, the once murderer goes free completely cleared; saved from the consequences.


Questions:

Is the murderer free to murder again since they were already forgiven of murder once? No.

Is the law of "do not murder" erased? No.

Is crime (i.e. broken law) hanging over him for murder erased? Yes.

Are all future murders covered by the one-time deal made by the attorney? No.

Is it true that if the murderer commits murder again that the attorney can't make the same deal on his behalf anymore because he already died, and all that waits for the murderer is the judge's sentencing? Yes.


Thus the person, once forgiven of the crime, is required to "murder no more"; to obey the law else something worse will happen to them, which is exactly what Christ said constantly to those he forgave.

But say they still willfully say to themselves, "hah! I was forgiven of murder once! I can go and murder all I want now! I'll be forgiven again!" purposely going on a killing spree. They trample the attorney's one-time gift, treating it like it's a common occurrence that can be repeated, and reap the consequences of their crime, with no one left to save them.

This is how to be un-saved.

----

Thankfully most haven't been enlightened to this truth just yet (i.e. fully understanding it) so most remain under the judge's mercy and permissive will in the mean time.

What about gossip?
What about lies?
What about stealing?
What about not feeding the hungry?

Matthew 25:34-40
34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

Why is it that big sins are are pulled out of the hat to justify works salvation.

"Hey isn't it great I do not murder"
Yet use your tongue offensive then you have committed murder.

Proverbs 18:21
21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue,
And those who love it will eat its fruit.

Always the extreme to make a point with no concern for the lesser sin????

Sin is sin.

Anyway the sacrifice of Jesus was in place before the law was given.
When Adam & Eve sinned the plan was in place.
The forgiveness of sins.

 

[Yahshua]

When people come into a public forum talking around others as if privately instead of addressing them directly or contending with the subject matter, while also - cherry picking words and phrases out of contexts for ad hominem attacks - it only serves discredit themselves and any position they would hold even if valid.

 

[Yahshua]

What about gossip?
What about lies?
What about stealing?
What about not feeding the hungry?

Matthew 25:34-40
34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

Why is it that big sins are are pulled out of the hat to justify works salvation.

"Hey isn't it great I do not murder"
Yet use your tongue offensive then you have committed murder.

Proverbs 18:21
21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue,
And those who love it will eat its fruit.

Always the extreme to make a point with no concern for the lesser sin????

Sin is sin.

Anyway the sacrifice of Jesus was in place before the law was given.
When Adam & Eve sinned the plan was in place.
The forgiveness of sins.

It's called an example people. What is all of this hoopla about using murder (i.e. one of the many sins against God's law) as an example to explain a point to other adults?

Christ is more than a mere attorney too. Does that disqualify the example also?

 

[Yahshua]

You just stated clearly that you are a sinless perfectionist, quantified and qualified sin, rejected a plethora of scripture that deals with sin in a believer, denied the verbiage of John and proven to many that you do not understand the scripture....

Judas was NEVER saved and then LOST it...another false stance....

He is called a devil from the beginning <-BY JESUS
A thief that holds the bag
THE SON of PERDITION

You are so far off base that it is as tragic as can be.

You've a lot of accusations against me when I've never accused you once. So test the spirits. Which spirit are you of? There is only one spirit who accuses.

Also please provide the scripture that I clearly haven't understood and we will see what it says because right now you've proven that not only do you've a tendency to accuse but also to twist words.

We know of one who has always twisted words from the beginning also.

Show me where I said Judah was saved.

 

[BillG]

It's called an example people. What is all of this hoopla about using murder (i.e. one of the many sins against God's law) as an example to explain a point to other adults?

Christ is more than a mere attorney too. Does that disqualify the example also?

No it's not.

If you wanted to do that why all the big ones?

Why did you not use gossip?
Or the power of the tongue that brings life or death?

Why not use those examples?

Let me guess.

The reason being is that genuine belivers will not commit physical murder.
And if they had before they came to Jesus, knowing it IS forgiven they will as genuine belivers will not do it again.

Yet with the small ones!!!!!!!

Oh it's ok, I just gossiped but never mind I'm forgiven.
Oh I just spent by half an hour at work telling people about Jesus when I should be working, so I've robbed my employer of wages I have not earned.

Dare I go on?
Do I make my point?

 

[NoNameMcgee]

God's definition of an apostate is different to ours.

The apostates are mentioned in Jude as "not having the Spirit" (V19), so they're not saved. And that verse concludes the chapter, which speaks in great detail about them........ ungodly men, those who don't believe, gone in the way of Cain, and also "clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever"

At the end of the chapter it concludes with "But you, beloved..." which also shows a distinction between believers and these apostates. The chapter's too long to post here, so these are just some verses I pulled out (in context though).


Also...

1 John 2:18-21: "Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. But you (believers) have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

amen



very well put

 

[BillG]

When people, through theology, quantify and qualify sins into nice neat little boxes....the end result is a partial salvation that only some can partake of....the bible is clear....one little white lie makes one as guilty of breaking the law and sin as a murder in the back alley behind the bar....obviously UNDER the law the punishments were different, but under GRACE both are sinners and either forgiven and saved eternally or still under the condemnation of the law and as lost as a goose....

Yes that is true.

Very easy to grade sin.
In doing so then we become Pharisees.

Ooh I'm glad I'm not like that person.
Sin is sin.
It is of commission and ommision.


[FONT=&quot]I don't care how many buses you own[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Or the size of your sanctuary [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Doesn't matter how steep [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Your steeple is, if it's sittin' on a cemetery[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I don't care if you pave your parking lot[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Or put pads upon your pews[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]What good is a picture perfect stage[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If you're missin' all the cues[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I don't care if your pastor is super powered[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And your program's always new[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]What you need is love and truth[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And men are gonna come to you[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]It doesn't matter if you know the Bible[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If it's all just in your head[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]But the thing I need to ask you[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Is have you done the things I said?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Do you love your wife?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]For her and for and for your children[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Are you layin' down your life?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]What about the others?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Are you livin' as a servant [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]To your sisters and your brothers?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Do you make the poor man beg you for a bone?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Do the widow and the orphan cry alone?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I don't care if you pray for miracles[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I don't care if you speak with tongues[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I don't care if you've said you love Me[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In every song you've sung[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]It doesn't matter if your sacrifice of praise[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Is loud enough to raise the dead[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The thing I need to ask you[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Is have you done the things I said?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Do you love your wife?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]With all you've got inside you[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Are you layin' down your life?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]What about the others?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Are you livin' as a servant[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]To your sisters and your brothers?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Do you make the poor man beg you for a bone?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Do the widow and the orphan cry alone?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Lord, when were you a prisoner[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]But we did not come to you[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]When was it that we saw you sick[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]That we didn't follow through[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Every time you turned your head[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And pretended not to see[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]When you did it not to the least of these[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]You did it not to Me (Don Francisco)[/FONT]

 

[Didymous]

I've always loved Proverbs 6:16-19, for here we read of seven things the LORD hates, that are an abomination to Him: 1. A proud look; 2. A lying tongue; 3. Hands that she'd innocent blood; 4. An heart that devises wicked imaginations; 5. Feet that be swift in running to mischief; 6. A false witness that speakers lies; and 7. He that something discord among brethren.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

I've always loved Proverbs 6:16-19, for here we read of seven things the LORD hates, that are an abomination to Him: 1. A proud look; 2. A lying tongue; 3. Hands that she'd innocent blood; 4. An heart that devises wicked imaginations; 5. Feet that be swift in running to mischief; 6. A false witness that speakers lies; and 7. He that something discord among brethren.

lol


something?

 

[Yahshua]

No it's not.

If you wanted to do that why all the big ones?

Why did you not use gossip?
Or the power of the tongue that brings life or death?

Why not use those examples?

Let me guess.

The reason being is that genuine belivers will not commit physical murder.
And if they had before they came to Jesus, knowing it IS forgiven they will as genuine belivers will not do it again.

Yet with the small ones!!!!!!!

Oh it's ok, I just gossiped but never mind I'm forgiven.
Oh I just spent by half an hour at work telling people about Jesus when I should be working, so I've robbed my employer of wages I have not earned.

Dare I go on?
Do I make my point?

Because the point of the example was being freed from the death penalty, which apparently soared by leaps and bounds over a few.

I don't know about you or where you live but I haven't heard of any law in any modern country that will seek the death penalty for anything other than murder. I could've used "having hate in one's heart" as a sin but that wouldn't have made much sense as a example of avoiding the death penalty, with a natural attorney and judge.

Now if all you (and others) have a problem with is the crime I chose for my example then here:

----

Christ's sacrifice satisfied the breaking of God's law, not the keeping of it.


If a person is a sinner for hate, they can't "un-hate" their neighbor. The law is powerless to save them once its broken. The law must be satisfied with their death (condemnation)...unless they are completely forgiven of the crime by the judge (God)...but even then the law must be satisfied.


Let's say their attorney (Christ) works out a deal with the judge where he dies in the place of the hater as long as the hater is forgiven of the crime...the judge agrees, the attorney dies, the law is satisfied, the once-hater goes free completely cleared; saved from the consequences.




Questions:


Is the hater free to hate again since they were already forgiven of hate once? No.


Is the law of "love thy neighbor (i.e. do not have hate in your heart)" erased? No.


Is crime (i.e. broken law) hanging over him for hate, erased? Yes.


Are all future moments of hate covered by the one-time deal made by the attorney? No.


Is it true that if the hater commits hate again that the attorney can't make the same deal on his behalf anymore because he already died, and all that waits for the hater is the judge's sentencing? Yes.




Thus the person, once forgiven of the sin, is required to "sin no more"; to obey God's law else something worse will happen to them, which is exactly what Christ said constantly to those he forgave.


But say they still willfully say to themselves, "hah! I was forgiven of hate once! I can go and hate all I want now! I'll be forgiven again!" purposely going on a hating spree. They trample Christ's one-time gift, treating it like it's a common occurrence that can be repeated over and over again, and reap the consequences of their sin, with no one left to save them.


This is how to be un-saved.


----


Thankfully most haven't been enlightened to this truth just yet (i.e. fully understanding it); still learning, so most remain under the God's mercy and permissive will in the mean time.


We can not be held accountable for things we don't yet fully understand. That is the mercy and long-suffering of a Holy God.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

there is no being un-saved


either you are born again

and adopted as a son or daughter of God

new heart
new spirit

and He will impute His righteousness to you

praise God


or you arent..

and you will be found with sin upon judgement

 

[Didymous]

In opposition to "once saved always saved," we should also have "once saved, never saved"?

 

[NoNameMcgee]

In opposition to "once saved always saved," we should also have "once saved, never saved"?

i call it the flimsy grace theology....

they are revolving door salvationists from the church of do it yourself

 

[Yahshua]

In opposition to "once saved always saved," we should also have "once saved, never saved"?

lol. I'd rather subscribe to the narrow road right down the middle of the two: "once saved, stay saved."

 

[NoNameMcgee]

lol. I'd rather subscribe to the narrow road right down the middle of the two: "once saved, stay saved."

thing is...

you cant keep yourself saved through efforts or works

Gods children are kept by His power

not mans



we work OUT salvation

not FOR salvation

we are saved (already) unto good works

be grace through faith